F/A-18 Hornet - Radius or Rate?

[bonesvf103]

Would you say that the Hornet is more an energy fighter or an angles fighter?  Should she fight nose to tail or nose to nose?  Radius fighter or rate fighter?

 

v6,

boNes

[Mikeck]

Radius. You can pull that nose around faster than any other aircraft (on par with mirage)....once. It bleeds a lot of energy. But the hornet can hold such a high angle of attack that you can pull that nose around in a 1 circle fight before the bad guys 2/3 through his. Just make sure that if you do that, you kill him...or you have altitude to regain energy

 

it’s not a bad rate fighter at all....just not as good as an f-16 or f-14. But there isn’t a better radius 1-circle fighter around (absent f-22 and F-35...the latter able to pull higher AoA than even the Hornet)

[Youda]

Right now, both.

 

The Hornet can reach extreme AoAs, only surpassed by Su-27 and Su-33, so it has amazing low speed pitch authority, and is therefore very good in 1-circle, the only downside being its roll rate under those high alphas.

 

But at the same time it has one of the best sustained turn rates in DCS, higher than F-14, F-15, F-16 and comparable to Mig-29. This is kinda questionable, but it's how the plane is currently modeled. The only disadvantage is its FCS G-limiter that is set to 6.5 Gs by default, but it can be easily overriden to reach 9 Gs.

 

So basically whatever you do, the Hornet will do great, unless you exceed speed at which the G-limit will start being the major limiting factor.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Youda

[Swift.]

1 hour ago, Youda said:

Right now, both.

 

The Hornet can reach extreme AoAs, only surpassed by Su-27 and Su-33, so it has amazing low speed pitch authority, and is therefore very good in 1-circle, the only downside being its roll rate under those high alphas.

 

But at the same time it has one of the best sustained turn rates in DCS, higher than F-14, F-15, F-16 and comparable to Mig-29. This is kinda questionable, but it's how the plane is currently modeled. The only disadvantage is its FCS G-limiter that is set to 6.5 Gs by default, but it can be easily overriden to reach 9 Gs.

 

So basically whatever you do, the Hornet will do great, unless you exceed speed at which the G-limit will start being the major limiting factor.

 

G limiter in Hornet is 7.5g by defualt.

[darkman222]

Default is very flexible if you pull quick enough and the limiter cant catch up

[bonesvf103]

Thanks all..I should add that I am talking in a dogfight/merge/ACM/BFM situation.  Obviously if there are radar missiles involved, the fight may be over before you have a chance to merge and use energy/angles.

 

Please continue with your thoughts!

 

v6,

boNes

[darkman222]

Quick summary:

A real Hornet: Radius.

DCS (over-capable) Hornet: both Rate and Radius at the moment. But preferably a radius fight will safe time.

Radar Missiles: Speed and missile crank

[Phil C6]

 

17 hours ago, darkman222 said:

Quick summary:

A real Hornet: Radius.

DCS (over-capable) Hornet: both Rate and Radius at the moment. But preferably a radius fight will safe time.

Radar Missiles: Speed and missile crank

Hi, in rate it seems yes (not sure because new more powerfull engines), for radius are you sure? F18 has reputation to be a monster in 1c, maybe the real one is better in 1c than in DCS
PS: check this post:

Best regards

[Notso]

I find that in today's modern era of JHMCS, AESA and 9x  The Rate vs Radius argument is slightly over-rated.  When you can uncage and shoot a 9x at someone across the circle, the rate vs radius of the opponent becomes somewhat moot.  That is ofc until you run out of missiles and have to revert to the gun, then all that comes back into play.  Was talking to a F-15C buddy of mine recently and he said that while they still train to all the normal classic BFM skills and such, in reality it's who can look over their shoulder with the Helmet the fastest and get a lock/uncage and shoot faster than the other guy wins the fight.  

[oldcrusty]

47 minutes ago, Notso said:

I find that in today's modern era of JHMCS, AESA and 9x  The Rate vs Radius argument is slightly over-rated.  When you can uncage and shoot a 9x at someone across the circle, the rate vs radius of the opponent becomes somewhat moot.  That is ofc until you run out of missiles and have to revert to the gun, then all that comes back into play.  Was talking to a F-15C buddy of mine recently and he said that while they still train to all the normal classic BFM skills and such, in reality it's who can look over their shoulder with the Helmet the fastest and get a lock/uncage and shoot faster than the other guy wins the fight.  

In a beak to beak with 9x I can't even imagine getting to the merge. Well, for training purposes I guess I could.

[Notso]

7 hours ago, Gripes323 said:

In a beak to beak with 9x I can't even imagine getting to the merge. Well, for training purposes I guess I could.

If you're going beak to beak with someone inside 9x range (outside of training), you've already screwed up.

[oldcrusty]

3 hours ago, Notso said:

If you're going beak to beak with someone inside 9x range (outside of training), you've already screwed up.

That's me and my AI buddies 

[Rainmaker]

12 hours ago, Notso said:

I find that in today's modern era of JHMCS, AESA and 9x  The Rate vs Radius argument is slightly over-rated.  When you can uncage and shoot a 9x at someone across the circle, the rate vs radius of the opponent becomes somewhat moot.  That is ofc until you run out of missiles and have to revert to the gun, then all that comes back into play.  Was talking to a F-15C buddy of mine recently and he said that while they still train to all the normal classic BFM skills and such, in reality it's who can look over their shoulder with the Helmet the fastest and get a lock/uncage and shoot faster than the other guy wins the fight.  

Yeah, at what point does it become about the ability to dump the airspeed and get the nose rated around to get inside the WEZ vs the constant debate over sustained turn rate/radius. You may end up at 200kts, but if that means you can go to 40, 45, 50 alpha and get the nose pointed where you need it long enough to let a missile go, turning at 20* per second is somewhat moot. That is...unless you miss.  The eagle can do it well, the hornet can do it well, of course the -22 does it well...and then your left talking about planes like the -16 that have an alpha limiter which might be a hinderance in some cases. The plane that has one of the best turn rates out there might be the one that ends up having to dodge missiles the whole time. 

[plaiskool]

In dcs rate for sure!

 

That's why people who understand BFM and strengh/advantage of Dcs hornet will always force 2circle fight.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 16, 2021 by plaiskool

[totmacher]

In DCS World only JF-17 has better sustained turn than F/A-18c

https://dcs.silver.ru/39,12,53,54,48

[plaiskool]

Hi totmacher, can you explain me why the rate deacrease drasticaly when less fuel and lighter on your graph?

[totmacher]

4 минуты назад, plaiskool сказал:

Hi totmacher, can you explain me why the rate deacrease drasticaly when less fuel and lighter on your graph?

Hi plaiskool, you probably see "Turn Time" graph (time of full circle). You must select  "Turn Speed" tab for see "rate of turn" (degree/sec).

[plaiskool]

Ah yes copy that!! Thanks!

[Top Jockey]

8 hours ago, Rainmaker said:

Yeah, at what point does it become about the ability to dump the airspeed and get the nose rated around to get inside the WEZ vs the constant debate over sustained turn rate/radius. You may end up at 200kts, but if that means you can go to 40, 45, 50 alpha and get the nose pointed where you need it long enough to let a missile go, turning at 20* per second is somewhat moot. That is...unless you miss.  The eagle can do it well, the hornet can do it well, of course the -22 does it well...and then your left talking about planes like the -16 that have an alpha limiter which might be a hinderance in some cases. The plane that has one of the best turn rates out there might be the one that ends up having to dodge missiles the whole time. 

 

This is also my perception too.

 

For much that the F-16 might be the reference in Sustained Turn Rate, at the same time it is also limited on the AoA / nose pointing regard.

[Dragon1-1]

23 hours ago, Notso said:

Was talking to a F-15C buddy of mine recently and he said that while they still train to all the normal classic BFM skills and such, in reality it's who can look over their shoulder with the Helmet the fastest and get a lock/uncage and shoot faster than the other guy wins the fight.  

That might be true in some cases, but in simulated-practical terms I noticed that kinetics make extreme off-boresight HMCS shots less reliable than it's commonly thought. If you're looking over the shoulder, then the missile has to do a U-turn and fly backwards, all while being in full view of its target. A shot like this will miss against a competent opponent. Likewise, head-on shots are easier to trash than a proper tail aspect shot. You don't necessarily have to point your nose as much as with older missiles, but it's not an instant death button. Of course, the maneuvers needed to trash one heater will likely leave you in a perfect position to eat the next one coming your way, but you also might be far enough to extend. BFM is still relevant if you want to guarantee a kill.

[Youda]

22 hours ago, Notso said:

I find that in today's modern era of JHMCS, AESA and 9x  The Rate vs Radius argument is slightly over-rated.  When you can uncage and shoot a 9x at someone across the circle, the rate vs radius of the opponent becomes somewhat moot.  That is ofc until you run out of missiles and have to revert to the gun, then all that comes back into play.  Was talking to a F-15C buddy of mine recently and he said that while they still train to all the normal classic BFM skills and such, in reality it's who can look over their shoulder with the Helmet the fastest and get a lock/uncage and shoot faster than the other guy wins the fight.  

But, you know, we have dedicated dogfighting servers and dogfighting competitions. Dogfighting is fun and we love doing it, regardless how little sense it makes.

[GGTharos]

On 4/12/2021 at 9:10 AM, bonesvf103 said:

Would you say that the Hornet is more an energy fighter or an angles fighter?  Should she fight nose to tail or nose to nose?  Radius fighter or rate fighter?

 

v6,

boNes

 

Let me answer your question with another question:  What's your opponent doing?

22 hours ago, Notso said:

Was talking to a F-15C buddy of mine recently and he said that while they still train to all the normal classic BFM skills and such, in reality it's who can look over their shoulder with the Helmet the fastest and get a lock/uncage and shoot faster than the other guy wins the fight.  

 

And did he also tell you about proper IRCM and Rmin tactics?  In the real world you can end up in a merge for a huge number of reasons - the 'if you're in a merge you've screwed up' argument is just BS

[Rainmaker]

55 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

 

Let me answer your question with another question:  What's your opponent doing?

 

And did he also tell you about proper IRCM and Rmin tactics?  In the real world you can end up in a merge for a huge number of reasons - the 'if you're in a merge you've screwed up' argument is just BS

Notso is/was an actual flyer, I would say he understands that better than all of us...just sayin’. 

[GGTharos]

And he's giving you a little piece of that understanding.

[Rainmaker]

1 hour ago, GGTharos said:

And he's giving you a little piece of that understanding.

Uhhh....what?