Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Just something I wondered the other day..  With the increasing realism in most aspects of new flight sims like DCS and FS2020 etc and numerous real pilots on record stating things like, "It's only missing the feel and fear of death" or "DCS is better than any simulator we had in the service to train on" and the like, my thought was how long or is it possible to consider yourself a "pilot"? I mean, there are people with 1000's even 10's of thousands of DCS hours, that could certainly jump in a real aircraft and operate with proficiency (yes, except for the physical and fear of death)  We have many service members who are strike drone or remote pilots. Are they considered pilots because they are remote really flying an aircraft? 

 

I know for me personally, it wasn't even a thought but it came out the other day when the wife asked, "are you going flying tonight?" and she meant in my Hornet on DCS. I catch myself saying , "I need to go fly tonight to chill out and clear my mind"

 

Yes, I have flown aircraft in real life, only about 10 hours in a Cessna, so I'm NOT a pilot, but it just made me wonder. Will there be someday a designation or examination of sorts that would qualify someone as say "Licensed Virtual Pilot"? I dunno...  Its probably not super important but just a thought especially as technology pursues, there will undoubtedly be more and more remote aircraft in the air and it would be a waste if the 1000's of hours flying the "almost the real thing" virtual couldn't be validated and open oppourtunities to VR and sim enthusiasts for potential job opportunities down the road doing something they always wanted to do but maybe couldn't afford in real life (ask me how I know) 

 

Would love your thoughts and discussions

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hard to tell for me since there are no proper simulation of ikarus c42b

 

Edit since i havent read the whole post: simulators count for your ir certification. 40 hours sim - 20 hours irl


Edited by IkarusC42B Pilot
  • Thanks 2
  • Confused 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I am a pilot IRL, not as a profession but for personal enjoyment, for fun.  I enjoy taking the wife, the boy or the girl away for sightseeing, or to visit somewhere new, practice an aerobatic routine or even just have a pointless bimble on a CAVOK day.  But I am relatively limited in real life.  I am never going to be able to fly an F-16 in combat (too old, too blind, too tall).  I am never going to fly Red Flag, or fly carrier ops in a Hornet, or support an infantry column in a Hind. 

 

With DCS I can attain a reasonable level of proficiency in these aircraft in the safe environment of my home, and even though it is immersive and intense (especially with VR), I know that everything I do in game is ultimately free of consequence.  I also know that flying in real life has very real consequences.  Do I think I could jump in an F-16 if someone let me, start it up and take it for a spin based on what I've learned from DCS? - very doubtful ( I have circa 200hrs on type).  There is too much to learn, limitations which don't apply to the simulator, emergency checklists which nobody on here learns because you generally just blow up when hit and mechanical failures are rare.  Real life has rules, procedures, ATC, weather, all of which take up valuable brain processing power.  Could I sit in the back of a D model and throw it around the sky for a bit?  Of course, but so could my 9 year old, it wouldn't make me a real Viper pilot.

 

I use X-Plane to practice some of my real-world flying (given Covid restrictions I have been spending more time and money flying my laptop this last year than any real aircraft) and it is genuinely useful if you can use the same aircraft you would fly IRL.  For example, If I am taking up a PA-28 (a type I don't have many hours on) a bit of time in XP11 can let me practice my scans and checks etc, but I can't say honestly that any simulator I've flown has helped me with the actual stick-wiggling art of flying.  The reason is that while it is possible to fly 'by the numbers', there is still very much an element of 'feel' to visual flying.  That is the one thing a static simulator can't convey. 

 

As Ikarus above correctly states, simulators are a valid method for maintaining and recertifying instrument flying procedures, because instrument flying is very much heads down and watching the numbers, and very much not about 'feel'.  There is a reason airlines invest $millions on simulators, it allows them to practice emergency situations which present too high a risk to do 'for real'.  They do not use these same simulators to train ab initio pilots - for that they use real aircraft.  There is a good reason for that.  QED.

 

TLDR: Lots of hours in a simulator make you a good simulator pilot.  A simulator can help a real pilot maintain proficiency, but it will not make a non-pilot a pilot,  IMHO of course.

  • Thanks 1

Laptop Pilot. Aorus X7 V7, i7 7820HK o/c to 4.3GHz, 4k 17.3", 32GB DDR4, 1070Ti 8GB. TM Warthog, Cougar & CH Products controls, plus homebuilt panels (XBox360 when traveling). Rift S.

  NTTR, SoH, Syria, Channel, CA, FC3, A-10C & A-10II, MiG-21, F-86, M-2000, Harrier, Viggen, Yak-52, Spitfire, Gazelle, Mi-8, F/A-18, L-39, F-16, Supercarrier & Mi-24 on pre-order.

    Wishlist: Jaguar, F-117 and F-111.

      C:MO & XP11. PPL(A) IRL.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  Actually flying is not that complicated, just some basic concepts and how to manipulate the primary controls. Learning how to operate any particular aircraft is mostly a case of memorising which buttons to push, mostly a case of repetition. Where things get complicated is comm etiquette, interacting with airspace, and the ridiculous amounts of legalistic red tape and regulation you have to deal with.

 

  So, sims are more than capable of teaching what you need to know to fly in general, and to fly any given aircraft if it reproduces it accurately. As far as the quality of simulation required, DCS, Xplane, etc, are far beyond what you need to ''learn the basics''. Most ''real'' sims are considerably more basic than what we have here.

 

  That third part, though, that's the part ''sim pilots'' tend to completely gloss over. So, they're more than capable of teaching you to ''fly'', but as far as teaching you to be a ''pilot'', that part requires a lot of book reading and study effort.

 

 

 

  I talked with a kid once, his dad was a pilot who claimed ''landing a plane is the hardest thing in the world'', which is just exaggerated nonsense and ego masturbation. Then again, I believe he lost his ppl after flying drunk and getting tangled in a power line.... so I guess it depends on your frame of reference. Being toasted probably does adds a fair amount of challenge to the process.

 

 

  As far as real world licensing, everything is about the magic FAA sticker. My controls are probably equal or superior to the ''certified'' controls, but they don't have that sticker so cannot be used. Same with sim software. Is it certified? Then it can be counted as sim hours. If no sticker, then no county. That's been the case for some time. It doesn't exempt you from needing real hours, though, for the actual certification. The USAF as I understand it is dropping the big multi-million dollar sim pods for simple VR gaming rigs. 99% of the benefit, 1% of the cost. They still require seat time, too.

 

  So no, real hour requirements aren't going anywhere, nor should they. A sim can provide a lot, but you still need practical real world experience, too. How a person behaves ingame, and how they behave in real life, are not the same and if a person screws up in real life, they crater their plane in a Walmart somewhere. You need both, and always will.


Edited by Mars Exulte
Spoiler

tumblr_inline_mpv4v0zasI1rg41uj.gif

The troll formerly known as Zhukov

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Mars Exulte said:

  Actually flying is not that complicated, just some basic concepts and how to manipulate the primary controls.

 

How many hours do you have IRL Zhukov?  Not disagreeing with you, but you could apply that statement to pretty much any vocation (driving, cooking, coding, etc.).  It took me about 10 hours before they let me loose on my own in an aeroplane, and 22 hours before I was allowed to drive on my own, so no, the actual art of stick wiggling is not that difficult compared with things many non-pilots do day-to-day.  For many wanabees the limiting factor is not ability, it's usually financial or medical (or marital!).

 

There is an adage regarding pilots and experience:

 

After 100 hours, you think you know it all

After 300 hours, you know you know it all

After 1000 hours, you know you will never know it all.

 

You can teach...

 

 

 


Edited by Lace

Laptop Pilot. Aorus X7 V7, i7 7820HK o/c to 4.3GHz, 4k 17.3", 32GB DDR4, 1070Ti 8GB. TM Warthog, Cougar & CH Products controls, plus homebuilt panels (XBox360 when traveling). Rift S.

  NTTR, SoH, Syria, Channel, CA, FC3, A-10C & A-10II, MiG-21, F-86, M-2000, Harrier, Viggen, Yak-52, Spitfire, Gazelle, Mi-8, F/A-18, L-39, F-16, Supercarrier & Mi-24 on pre-order.

    Wishlist: Jaguar, F-117 and F-111.

      C:MO & XP11. PPL(A) IRL.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I should mention that simming tends to form a lot of bad habits for a RW pilot . Clearing turns , ATC , VFR altitudes , preflighting and emergency procedures as examples .

  • Like 2

9700k , Aorus Pro wifi , 32gb 3200 mhz CL16 , 1tb EVO 970 , MSI RX 6800XT Gaming X TRIO , Seasonic Prime 850w Gold , Coolermaster H500m , Noctua NH-D15S , CH Hotas on Foxxmounts , CH pedals , RiftS

 

"Hold my beer"

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Lace said:

How many hours do you have IRL Zhukov?

   Not a lot, but I have flown some in RL. The knowledge base I built up over the many years of reading and simming was most definitely tremendously helpful. I will say 2d simming creates a weird false perception, because the scale and FoV are off and its usefulness is most of a conceptual nature... VR on the otherhand, I found to be an extremely useful tool for practicing, found myself making the same mistakes in VR I was making in the plane and I was able to correct those tendencies.

 

6 hours ago, Lace said:

Not disagreeing with you, but you could apply that statement to pretty much any vocation (driving, cooking, coding, etc.)

  That statement can be applied to almost any vocation because it's largely true. Most acts are not that terribly complicated in and of themselves, and ''anyone'' can learn to do them. The issue is whether or not someone has a natural aptitude for a task, which is a somewhat nebulous concept, and how well they fundamentally understand what they're doing. As with any profession, there are people who are very good at passing tests, but suck at the actual doing.

 

6 hours ago, Lace said:

 It took me about 10 hours before they let me loose on my own in an aeroplane, and 22 hours before I was allowed to drive on my own, so no, the actual art of stick wiggling is not that difficult compared with things many non-pilots do day-to-day.

  Yep, I think the minimum age for a glider ppl is 14yo, which is even lower than driving... which is... so unbelievably ironic. Especially considering glider pilots are expected to learn all the same airspace and what have you regulations as a powered pilot, etc, yet the roads it's just ''here you go!''... probably has a lot to do with the carnage on the highway and why we don't regularly have planes falling out of the sky. Imo, people hang up too much on ''their right to do a thing'' instead of acknowledging that some things probably need a minimal level of education first @@

 

6 hours ago, Lace said:

For many wanabees the limiting factor is not ability, it's usually financial or medical (or marital!).

  You forgot time =( It's difficult to juggle a fulltime job and all the ''real life things'' and then somehow find a couple hours a week to go fly.

 

6 hours ago, Lace said:

There is an adage regarding pilots and experience:

 

After 100 hours, you think you know it all

After 300 hours, you know you know it all

After 1000 hours, you know you will never know it all.

 

You can teach...

 

  Flying in general has a lot more capacity for learning, there's always room for improvement and expansion, understanding the science of flight and the atmosphere, too. The basic concepts are simple enough ''anyone can do it'', but it takes a lot of effort and education to be ''good'' at it. Those are the best sort of things to learn!

Spoiler

tumblr_inline_mpv4v0zasI1rg41uj.gif

The troll formerly known as Zhukov

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's missing the entire organic side of the house.  You press a button and load up with weapons in seconds, in reality its days and hours worth of labor and coordination to get it all to work.  Any mission ready operational flying organization takes years to achieve their readiness capability.  Hundreds of ground hours, tasks, and people just to get that single sortie to work, and even that is no guarantee of success.  It's labor in real life, that doesn't sell well in games.

 

Those virtual drone pilots have something we lack, the expertise and experience of hundreds of people with thousands of hours backing them up with proven training methods and systems.  And an operational plan and structure don't hurt either.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...