Spitfire cockpit model / textures, roughness , sound ?

[Jexmatex]

hello hello, any plan on rework the cockpit of the spitfire ?

the pink brass duct and the lack of AO make this great plane a out of date in terme of art

we need metalness in these shaders  !

 

take a look at the spit in mfs 2020 !

 

and by the way any plan on updating the Merlin and overall acoustic and aerodinamyc sounds ?

[grafspee]

Sounds were reworked and updated recently and i like them a lot.

Cockpit wise i think it didn't change since release.

Take note that Spitfire which are you talking about is missing something like 90% functionality. 

Edited April 7, 2021 by grafspee

[Jexmatex]

4 hours ago, grafspee said:

Sounds were reworked and updated recently and i like them a lot.

Cockpit wise i think it didn't change since release.

Take note that Spitfire which are you talking about is missing something like 90% functionality. 

 

for the functionnality i know and it is not relevant as 'im talking about a nice graphic revamp in the cockpit

[Nealius]

+1. The other warbirds got a cockpit revamp. The current Spit console reminds me of my cast-iron skillet. The prop texture needs fixing too.

[grafspee]

Are you sure that you are running maxed settings, for me cockpit looks very good. As well externals

2 hours ago, Nealius said:

+1. The other warbirds got a cockpit revamp. The current Spit console reminds me of my cast-iron skillet. The prop texture needs fixing too.

Prop texture is bugged and waiting fixing

[Nealius]

I fly VR, and the cockpit looks very bad in comparison to the Mustang and P-47. The Bf 109 and Fw190A8 are a bit of a middle-ground between the Spit and Mustang/Jug in quality in VR.

[Davee]

4 hours ago, Nealius said:

I fly VR, and the cockpit looks very bad in comparison to the Mustang and P-47. The Bf 109 and Fw190A8 are a bit of a middle-ground between the Spit and Mustang/Jug in quality in VR.

The Jug is a great pleasure to fly in VR. To me, the best of the lot.

[CaptainBiscuit]

Spitfire graphics update please!

 

I bought the P47 and Channel map to keep me busy in the meantime. 

 

Sorry but hard to feel any pleasure from flying the Spitfire with those graphics :)

[DD_Fenrir]

Dunno what you guys are going on about. Having actually flown in one I can tell you that it looks spot on & sounds perfect. 

[-0303-]

On 4/7/2021 at 6:12 PM, grafspee said:

Take note that Spitfire which are you talking about is missing something like 90% functionality.

Wut?  What's missing? Besides proper cooling modeling (most likely)

Pitot is troubled all warbirds,

 

[grafspee]

31 minutes ago, -0303- said:

Wut?  What's missing? Besides proper cooling modeling (most likely)

Pitot is troubled all warbirds,

 

It was about spitfire from other game.

non combat, was referring to lack of damage model and weapons

[Art-J]

In either case, 4 out of 5 main texture files and all roughmets used in the DCS Spit cockpit date back to 2017. It's really needs updating to look comparable to other warbirds now, especially when 2.7 made it even worse with new issues appearing i.e. "milky" instruments, numerous "oily" components on both sides. Roughmets are clearly messed up in this case and at least they should be updated.

 

The only good changes 2.7 brought to the Spit are propeller and cleaned up windscreen textures.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Art-J

[rkk01]

DCS Spitfire IX is an embarrassment to the prototype

 

The Spitfire is THE iconic aircraft from WW2, is not from the whole of aviation history.

 

No matter how good the FM is, no matter how good the weapons, damage and engine modelling, the sim pilot had to sit in that cockpit.

 

Its the sounds that kill it for me . I flew the Spit yesterday (first time since before P-47 release) after a lot of hours in the Anton and Dora

 

The Spitfire cockpit sounds are like my lawnmower - an absolute travesty for an aircraft that both looks and sounds so majestic and recognisable in real life...

 

F2 sounds are “passable” and the F3 fly by sounds are pretty good.

 

The best Merlin sounds I remember in a game were some add ons for CFS, probably 20 years ago.  The chap who produced them, Dan Hopgood, still appears to be active in the Xthingy sim (I also suspect he was in the same student halls with me as I remember a avid sound and aviation fan of the same name)

[DD_Fenrir]

On 5/19/2021 at 9:59 AM, rkk01 said:

DCS Spitfire IX is an embarrassment to the prototype

 

The Spitfire is THE iconic aircraft from WW2, is not from the whole of aviation history.

 

No matter how good the FM is, no matter how good the weapons, damage and engine modelling, the sim pilot had to sit in that cockpit.

 

Its the sounds that kill it for me . I flew the Spit yesterday (first time since before P-47 release) after a lot of hours in the Anton and Dora

 

The Spitfire cockpit sounds are like my lawnmower - an absolute travesty for an aircraft that both looks and sounds so majestic and recognisable in real life...

 

F2 sounds are “passable” and the F3 fly by sounds are pretty good.

 

The best Merlin sounds I remember in a game were some add ons for CFS, probably 20 years ago.  The chap who produced them, Dan Hopgood, still appears to be active in the Xthingy sim (I also suspect he was in the same student halls with me as I remember a avid sound and aviation fan of the same name)

 

What monumental claptrap.

 

Yes, some textures are showing their age with regards the 2.7 updates to PBR - milky glass being a primary issue, but the geometry is absolutely spot on.

 

As for sound you've clearly never been in a Spitfire Mk.IX cos - I can tell you with authority - DCS sounds VERY much like the real deal.

 

And reference to CFS? Seriously? Where the best they could do was loop a series of sound snippets snapped from aircraft flyby's using little more than half power?

 

You're comments illustrate of just how ignorant you are to the profound issues of generating realistic sounds for flight sims. I reproduce below some thoughts from an earlier post I made that outline the problems a flight sim developer faces when it comes to re-creating the engine sounds:

 

Quote

I'd love to give you guys a small developers sound budget and tell you go record a sample set for a Bf 109K and see how far you got. Lol!

 

Here's a little lesson on what you have to worry about.

 

The trouble with getting good samples for WW2 period engines across the entire power range is problematic indeed, even for commonly available (read Merlin or Allison) powerplants.

 

For example, a typical Spitfire display according to a source I talked to about 10 years ago never went above 6lb boost (more typically kept to 4) and 2400-2600RPM.

 

No owner runs these motors at anything like the full military power settings, let alone WEP. They're too expensive and engine life is reduced for every lb of MP you use that isn't necessary.

 

So you can have your recordings in cockpit, at idle, and various decisions of power and prop combinations - and you'll have to select a compromise few cos there's no way you could rationally package a complete audio file subset for every possible combination of power and RPM; the data size would be ridiculous. So you compromise there.

 

Now how the hell do you get a sub-set for all those areas of the power envelope that the very nice owner (who has, incidentally, let you clamber all over his very expensive airframe installing mics and put fatigue hours on both his very expensive airframe and even more expensive engine) will not permit his airplane to get to?

 

Then there's the microphones. All mics colour the sound they hear compared to human hearing by nature of the physics inherent with the microphones dimensions and materials it is constructed from. Now it goes without saying that as a general rule the more money you pay the better the mic and the less colouration you get - BUT THERE WILL ALWAYS BE SOME. But this brings budget into consideration. You as sound guy have to possibly fly somewhere (paying for flights) with your mobile sound recording studio (not light gear btw) paying for hotels, food and the like just to access the particular airframe/powerplant combo that is your target. How expensive are the mics gonna be...

 

Now you gotta consider where you record from - ideally you want it at ear level in the cockpit, but a pilot generally sits there so you gotta find some where unobtrusive, but representative. Put it too out of the way and you'll get a load of airframe noise with powerplant returns that have bounced off and scattered of a hundred formers, avionics boxes & the like; not good. So it has to be in cockpit. For that you probably need a small mic so it doesn't get in anyones way - OOPS! You run into colouration issues cos a mic with a small diaphragm/capsule colours sound and will lose low end.

 

You wanna record engine noise outside of the airframe? Then the airframe will have to be tied down and run-up (for which there are again limits) cos you have a snowballs chance in hell of recording anything but wind noise with a microphone stuck out in a 150+mph airflow.

 

And this just for a Merlin!

 

As for the Daimler Benzess? Flying examples of these are vastly rarer and such just having access to a live example is even more problematic, without even thinking about running it at the K-4 rated ATAs and RPMs. And - lol - MW50? Ha! Forget about it.

 

 

The only real solution is thus:

 

Take the recordings you have and analyse the various frequency and harmonic trends over the sound spectrum that the engine occupies as power and RPM changes occur and try to extrapolate the likely shifts in these as further power increases shift the patterns around. Use this analysis to then create a sound model that is programmed to follow these trends for the target airframe; essentially a pre-programmed - with variable but finite input parameters - synthesiser.

 

Now much here depends on the modelling, the core synthesiser software, bit-rate, throughput and resolution. As software tech improves, so these models improve.

 

This is how most previous sims since Il-2: 1946 have done it, and is the only way to get around the limited power output of the protype examples running.

 

What BTD has accomplished using synthesised sound engine is incredible and is far and away the best of the current crop of WW2 sims.

Edited May 20, 2021 by DD_Fenrir

[rkk01]

Did you even read and understand my post? 
 

Or just jump in with (an offensive) response...

 

After flying the FWs I was pretty shocked by the Mk IX cockpit sounds - just a high pitched lawnmower drone...  I’m comparing to DCS Anton, Dora, 109-K and P-47... not just some whimsical rant 

 

Flyby is good and F2 is passable, but I can’t see (hear...!) why anyone would think the cockpit sounds were acceptable.

 

CFS was a long time ago - memory and all that... and the standard sounds were rubbish... which is why there were sound packs released for various aircraft. I recall that the Dan Hopgood add ons were very good (at the time).

Yes this is all subjective, but the CFS sound addon made the Spitfire sound like, well, a Spitfire. Using the same “sound like a Spitfire” criteria, I’m not sure that the DCS cockpit sounds meet that criteria...

 

and no, I haven’t flown in a Spitfire... but don’t see how that has any relevance at all. 
Thanks to the wonders of modern technology cockpit sound and vision is just a click or two away!!!

 

In fairness, I haven’t flown either of the Merlin engined aircraft for a while, and that unfamiliarity might be part of the problem. I was also in my 2.5 copy at the time and not 2.7 - not sure if there any differences etc

 

[DD_Fenrir]

 

Vs

 

 

 

There are some differences I grant you, but it's astoundingly close, considering one is synthesised recreation and by it's very nature cannot be identical.

 

Quote

 

Yes this is all subjective, but the CFS sound addon made the Spitfire sound like, well, a Spitfire. Using the same “sound like a Spitfire” criteria, I’m not sure that the DCS cockpit sounds meet that criteria...

 

and no, I haven’t flown in a Spitfire... but don’t see how that has any relevance at all. 

 

 

*Facepalm*

 

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by DD_Fenrir

[rkk01]

Both excellent videos...

 

In fact, the Oshkosh one was what I used for my initial comparison for the DCS Spitfire

 

The “DCS Spitfire over Normandy” vid couldn’t be more different to the Spitfire sounds in my version of DCS (have now tried it in 2.7 and 2.5)

 

Could be my setup... I swapped my motherboard last year and the onboard sound on the new m/b is not as good as my previous SB X-Fi expansion card (no slot for it on the new board)

 

I guess I should also check my in game settings for DCS - any recommendation would be useful...

 

That said, other warbird sounds (and jets) in DCS are excellent, it does just seem to be the Spit that sounds like a high pitched lawnmower.

 

ETA - just been in to a free flight...

 

Increasing throttle from idle to 16+ boost makes a massive difference to external sounds, but almost no appreciable difference to in-cockpit sound

Can’t see how that would be correct...!

Edited May 21, 2021 by rkk01

[DD_Fenrir]

First: rkk01 you have my apologies if my initial response was a little aggressive, but knowing that BTD, Eagle Dynamics Sound Designer reads these forums I felt your post was mildly insulting of the man's efforts; in my limited dealings with him I have found him polite, honest and open to suggestion and the tone of your post rubbed me up the wrong way as I felt it did him a disservice. As such I posted in an irritated frame of mind. My bad. I could have done better in that regard.

 

Secondly: if you felt insulted, well that wasn't actually my aim. If it was the use of the word ignorant, then I meant it in the direct literal and objective sense, not as a discredit to your intelligence or suggesting that being wilfully and deliberately too lazy to learn. I myself will hands up gladly profess ignorance over a great many subjects; medicine, classical history, languages, gardening, mechanical engineering, chemistry, the list goes on. There is only so much one person can know about so many things.  Sound recording, engineering and synthesis is a knotty and very complex domain, one I happen to have a degree in. It was apparent in your response that you don't have the level of training and understanding of the complexities and peculiarities that come with either recording or recreating sound; I would suffer the same if anyone asked me some questions in regard to some fairly basic chemistry. You don't know what you don't know, and in that case I would claim ignorance. It can be a dangerous word I grant you, but it also can be direct, honest and objective description. Given the context and tone however, maybe there was a way to get the point across in a less confrontational way...

 

As for your sound issues; you're onboard sound processing may well be an issue - a lack of channels compared to your previous build would lower sound quality.

 

However I would suggest running a full repair on DCS as on occasion that has sorted a few varied bugs that I experienced but others did not. Some files can get corrupted.

 

Also, if you ever had modded the sounds, check you have no Mod files lurking somewhere.

 

What flight regime was the idle to +16 boost taking place within? 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2021 by DD_Fenrir

[Rosebud47]

Got 4 active studio speakers connected to a soundblaster card and configured as 5.1 surround without center and subwoofer - soundblaster software does a very good job splitting the channels for centerbox and subwoofer to the active studio speaker !

 

Some time after the big 2.7 update me wondered, that some low frequency sounds were out of place. Well, the sound settings in DCS option menu was set back to default. After setting it to 5.1 surround, everything sounds fine again. Just wanted to add to your discussion not to forget to check the whole soundsystem configuration.

[rkk01]

Computers - you’ve got to love them....

 

Seems like all my speakers had dropped off except for the front pair

 

Realtek HD Audio Manager would not recognise my speaker setup and would therefore only a allow 2-channel stereo configuration - so I’d lost the sub-woofer and the centre, mid and rear speakers.  Seems like this has been quite a common issue and “may” be linked to some W10 updates.

 

Either way, I now have a full speaker setup again and the Spitfire sounds completely different.

 

Not sure why the Spitfire was more affected compared to the other warbirds, other than the Merlin sounds being perhaps more dependent on the bass channel. Doppler effect in flyby now makes you hair stand on end - as it should...!

[Rosebud47]

Made some similar experiences soundwise regarding the Spit. With other aircraft the difference from changing surround to stereo was not such noticable. I assume that a proper digital surround sound setup is not implemented in every module. Recently have read, that ED also got a revision of the sound system on the to-do list, which would be great.

 

The aircraft sounds in DCS are really fantastic and add so much to the experience. If you got a good 7.1 sound system, I would really recommend to connect it to a soundblaster card instead of the Realtek HD Audio onboard chips. As far as I know, there are also external soundcard solutions for Soundblaster cards. Soundblaster cards are not too expensive, but the difference in quality is huge to the onboard Realtek sound.  

 

EDIT: By the way, if you got the P-47 then you should take a round with it. The engine sounds of the 45 ltr. double wasp radial is such a blast! I love to fly around and hear that engine sound ( never happened to me with modern jet module ). 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Rosebud47

[Jexmatex]

jeez ! some fire around here

 

i was mostly talking about textures revamp, modeling is ok but normal map are quoi low rez as the 2.7 standart, and for the sound, it is great, but there is always a course of bettering things ! like structures sound squeak and klong and else, but i'll be glad to keep the sound as it is and have a nice textures set with roughness and brass pipe looking like real brass.

[Krupi]

I notice no one has mentioned the missing nuts running along the bottom of the fwd canopy 

 

Has bugged me for a while, now which rivet was I on...