How does F14 RWR react to R33 launch?

[Awesomejlee]

What should the 14 be seeing from a R33 launch by a Mig 31? I'm getting a missile launch warning when it fires, and if I break the lock, the missile will still track.

[razo+r]

Do you actually break the lock or are you simply putting it in the blindspot of the RWR? 

[draconus]

What blindspots?

"No blind spots."

https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/265780-how-does-rwr-know-friendly-radars-from-enemy-radars/?do=findComment&comment=4602274

[The_Tau]

from same post

"However, if directly above or below, the threat has to be significantly closer (compared to the horizontal plane) to pass the SNR threshold."

[Skysurfer]

The R-33 is a SARH missile so technically if you break the lock by whatever means it should render the missile useless as far as DCS goes.

[Noctrach]

The MiG-31 has a PESA radar implemented in that trade-mark simplified DCS AI way which means its interaction with RWRs can be explained simply as <loud noises and erratic hand motions>

 

Its also nigh-invulnerable to notching, though that might be close to the truth idk how those arrays work.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Noctrach

[Golo]

This is one of the DCS-isms. You should see nothing on RWR if MiG-31 launches R33 on you at long range. It uses inertial/command guidance with mid course correction(s) via datalink post launch. Only in terminal guidance you should see warning on your RWR, either M from active missile (what Im inclined to belive R33 actually is) or if you are conservative and treat R33 as SARH in terminal guidance its even better for R33, because at this point you would only see indication of missile guidance from MiG-31 and not M from active missile. That way one could wrongly assume that MiG-31 only just launched where in fact you are just seconds from .

 

[Awesomejlee]

What it’s doing now is giving a launch warning when it launches for about 10-15 seconds, then the tone goes to a normal lock tone. Sometimes the lock tone goes away as well (and the missile still tracks). And it’s not in a blind spot. Either directly ahead or on the 3/9.

[Skysurfer]

4 hours ago, Golo said:

This is one of the DCS-isms. You should see nothing on RWR if MiG-31 launches R33 on you at long range. It uses inertial/command guidance with mid course correction(s) via datalink post launch. Only in terminal guidance you should see warning on your RWR, either M from active missile (what Im inclined to belive R33 actually is) or if you are conservative and treat R33 as SARH in terminal guidance its even better for R33, because at this point you would only see indication of missile guidance from MiG-31 and not M from active missile. That way one could wrongly assume that MiG-31 only just launched where in fact you are just seconds from .

 

 

A SARH launch will still give you a launch warning from the time of launch. There is an additional signal being fed for targeting - you don't get any indication from the missile as it's a passive seeker and works off of the reflection. 

[Saber2243]

52 minutes ago, Skysurfer said:

 

A SARH launch will still give you a launch warning from the time of launch. There is an additional signal being fed for targeting - you don't get any indication from the missile as it's a passive seeker and works off of the reflection. 

This is true of most conventional radars, but nobody really knows how the PESA and AESA radars handle this, and the currently accepted rumor is that they don't have to add in an additional signal and therefor do not provide any kind of launch warning for the RWR

[Skysurfer]

2 minutes ago, Saber2243 said:

This is true of most conventional radars, but nobody really knows how the PESA and AESA radars handle this, and the currently accepted rumor is that they don't have to add in an additional signal and therefor do not provide any kind of launch warning for the RWR

 

At least for a PESA the signal that gets put out does not differ much and there still needs to be a D/L guidence signal for a SARH missile. It's just that the beam is electronially steered rather than mechanically, allowing a greater scan volume and frequency. A PESA radar also required a tremendous power output to work at longer ranges making them very easy to pick up by EW receptors. A PESA does not differ much from your regular dish radar in terms of signal output - you still have one scanning beam within a certain band. AESA on the other hand is a completely different game and allows for much greater agility and true LPI.

[Southernbear]

It depends if the Mig-31 has a Russian queivilent to TWS and if that works for the AI in DCS. Like the F-14 if the Mig 31 can use TWS the target should not get a RWR missile launch warning until the missile goes active. In this situation the only thing on the RWR should be "hey there is a Mig 31 over there" HOWEVER, if the Mig 31 must lock the target with STT equivalent to guide its missile to the target till it goes active then yes, it will give you a RWR missile warning at launch. 

 

Considering its been said the radar can track up to it can track up to 10 targets and simultaneously attack four of them with its Vympel R-33 missiles its my assumption that it uses a TWS like system. 

 

The issue is there is no guarantee its how it works within DCS and it's AI. 

Edited April 8, 2021 by Southernbear

[Saber2243]

4 hours ago, Skysurfer said:

 

At least for a PESA the signal that gets put out does not differ much and there still needs to be a D/L guidence signal for a SARH missile. It's just that the beam is electronially steered rather than mechanically, allowing a greater scan volume and frequency. A PESA radar also required a tremendous power output to work at longer ranges making them very easy to pick up by EW receptors. A PESA does not differ much from your regular dish radar in terms of signal output - you still have one scanning beam within a certain band. AESA on the other hand is a completely different game and allows for much greater agility and true LPI.

I mean it clearly doesn't operate the same way as a traditionally steered radar, because it can engage 4 targets simultaneously with its ostensibly semi-active missiles, which is not something a conventional radar can do. It is not a stretch that RWRs would react differently to this type of STT

[Skysurfer]

10 hours ago, Saber2243 said:

I mean it clearly doesn't operate the same way as a traditionally steered radar, because it can engage 4 targets simultaneously with its ostensibly semi-active missiles, which is not something a conventional radar can do. It is not a stretch that RWRs would react differently to this type of STT

 

Just read up on PESA my dude, don't know what else to tell you. Later dish PD radars can very well engage two targets at a time with a SARH missile, when within parameters.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Skysurfer

[Awesomejlee]

My issue is... why am I getting that launch warning for the first 10-15 seconds? Shouldn’t there be... nothing?

[draconus]

41 minutes ago, Awesomejlee said:

My issue is... why am I getting that launch warning for the first 10-15 seconds? Shouldn’t there be... nothing?

The F-14 gets RWR warnings whenever DCS system feeds it with such info. Further discussion belongs to the DCS bug/sim research sections. Current implementation treats Mig-31/R-33 like usual SARH launch apparently.

[Naquaii]

In DCS SARH missiles give launch warning from the launching platforms tracking radar and ARH missiles from the missile's own radar when it goes active. That's how it is and it's a reasonable middle ground to be frank. Our AIM-54 implementation differentiates in that we can launch the missile in either mode depending on radar mode but is the same in respective mode as all other missiles in DCS.

 

Guessing about how a certain in use weapon system would behave against an RWR is just a bit pointless unfortunately as it's bound to be either conjecture from openly available facts on the internet or someone divulging information that would have them looking over their own shoulder.... What an RWR can or can't see is just too classified to be data openly available and will likely remain so for quite a while after they're out of service.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Naquaii

[GGTharos]

There should be a warning.  This is no different from other PESA radars when they need guidance quality data.