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Major DCS Engine issue : SAMs don't detect bombs


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DCS has a core issue. Take a SA-15. It can intercept HARMs fired at it. Good. But...not the bombs.

In multiplayer, everyone uses JSOWs and GBUs to kill SAMs, because they can't detect and fire at them in response. Which make them better than HARMs to do SEAD/DEAD. This is not realistic, because from the SAM's radar perspective, a missile or a bomb is the same kind of radar contact. And because bombs are slower, it should even be easier to intercept them.

I don't think their is any major technical issue to correct this. So...could you ED change that ? 

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It very much depends on RCS values, if you have data that shows a particular weapon system can intercept a particular weapon system please share it with us in a PM if you need to. 

 

Without confirming data we are unlikely to make changes. 

 

thanks

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There are two slightly separate but related issues at play here.

 

One is that regular bombs simply don't have the “reflection” stat that sensors (including SAM search and tracking radars) use to identify and guide weapons onto target. Bombs aren't engaged by air defences because, from their point of view, they simply don't exist. The stat that would make them show up isn't there.

 

The other is that gliding weapons are internally defined as missiles, and those do get the reflection stat, but for whatever reason, gliding bombs are often given very tiny numbers.

 

The JSOW has a reflection of 0.05 to 0.0618, depending on variant (this is meant to be an abstraction of effective nose-aspect RCS in m², more or less).

The LS-6 has a reflection of 0.07.

The GB-6  has a reflection 0.1.

The BK-90 has a reflection of 0.4.

The AGM-62, which could conceivably be generously included in the category, is actually just treated as a regular bomb and lacks a reflection stat.

 

Meanwhile, the HARM has a reflection stat of 0.05 and the Maverick sits at 0.063

 

This stat then needs to be compared against the reflection limit of the various SAMs:

0.02 for the SA-15

0.049 for the SA-10 and Patriot

0.1 for the Rapier

0.12 for the HQ-7

0.18 for the SA-2, SA-3, SA-6, SA-11, and Roland

0.22 for the SA-8 and Hawk

 

…and of course, the systems then have to have low enough a scan and lock-on time to see the target before it gets too close. This is what makes the SA-15 so annoyingly good at swatting weapons out of the sky: it has the lowest reflection limit in the (DCS) business, and a good lock-on time to match. The SA-10 is set to just about be able to detect most weapons aimed at it, but it is such a small margin that it struggles, and it has to go through a series of not-entirely-brief lock-ons before it can fire a missile that is bad at engaging short-range targets. So it's quite easy to make it not even bother trying to defend itself.

 

To “change that”, they would have to go through every bomb in the game (and there are… a few, let's say) and identify a reasonable, preferably well-sourced, RCS that can be abstracted into this internal reflection value, and then also preferably match that against reports of the system being used that way. It's not a major technical issue, but a pretty significant research, balance, and testing one.

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Does the Doppler effect change the RCS value. A HARM is probably moving faster then a GBU 12 so the SAM can see a missile better than a bomb. In 1991 we saw on CNN Patriots shooting Scud Missiles out of the sky. Fast forward to 5 or 10 years ago (not sure when) and Israel's Iron Dome can shoot down incoming mortar shells.

 

For armor to evade bombs it would be better if the AI would know that if a jet gets within a mile or two of its position is to start moving or use smoke screens to conceal itself. Use terrain  or trees to hide vs just sitting there in the open. Laser weapons should not work if a tank or SA15 launcher moves into a wooded area or in between buildings if in an urban environment.

 

Bet this can be done in the mission editor using triggers routs etc to hide mobile units better.

 

 

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54 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

It very much depends on RCS values, if you have data that shows a particular weapon system can intercept a particular weapon system please share it with us in a PM if you need to.

 

As with what Tippis said, bombs and unguided rockets are just classes of weapons that DCS systems just will not engage - they don't have a reflection limit defined so they're invisible to anti-aircraft units.

 

You can even see this when things like the SA-15 which will try and shoot down APKWS rockets and low observable glide bombs (such as JSOW) but won't do anything against unguided munitions that in some cases are a lot larger and aren't designed to be low observable - which doesn't make sense.

 

10 minutes ago, Wdigman said:

Does the Doppler effect change the RCS value?

 

Not in DCS it doesn't (from what I can tell), and I wouldn't have thought it would anyway.

 

Quote

A HARM is probably moving faster then a GBU 12 so the SAM can see a missile better than a bomb.

 

A bomb though would still produce more of enough of a doppler shift to be detected by every RADAR defined in DCS - in DCS the radial velocity limit is usually set at ±10m/s or about 20 knots - which everything will travel faster than.


Edited by Northstar98
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On 4/5/2021 at 2:52 PM, BIGNEWY said:

It very much depends on RCS values, if you have data that shows a particular weapon system can intercept a particular weapon system please share it with us in a PM if you need to. 

 

Without confirming data we are unlikely to make changes. 

 

thanks


To be honest I don't think a precise RCS value is necessary, because what is needed is a "gameplay" fix. 

The goal of such a change would be to stop an exploit about bombs and gliding bombs being more effective in a DEAD role than HARMS...
 

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20 minutes ago, Aigle2 said:

The goal of such a change would be to stop an exploit about bombs and gliding bombs being more effective in a DEAD role than HARMS...

 

Think about it how SAM systems would actually utilize their mobility and relocate themselves random times in periodic times (like every 10-15 minutes), or after each attack run etc. 

It doesn't take much to move behind a building or treeline for cover to wait a overfly, or wait inside forest and come out for a proper moment to launch etc. This of course on SAM systems that are highly mobile and not required to deploy complex systems to move. 

 

It would effectively render SEAD/DEAD missions far less possible to be done when the EWR maintains the threat positions updated to SAM systems near the area.

This so that even if the bombs and such wouldn't be detected in time, you don't have time to release them as you don't find the targets until it is too late. 

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On 4/5/2021 at 5:47 AM, Aigle2 said:

DCS has a core issue. Take a SA-15. It can intercept HARMs fired at it. Good. But...not the bombs.

In multiplayer, everyone uses JSOWs and GBUs to kill SAMs, because they can't detect and fire at them in response. Which make them better than HARMs to do SEAD/DEAD. This is not realistic, because from the SAM's radar perspective, a missile or a bomb is the same kind of radar contact. And because bombs are slower, it should even be easier to intercept them.

I don't think their is any major technical issue to correct this. So...could you ED change that ? 

yea, theres a fundamental flaw in that premise. a patriot wouldnt be able to engage a bomb. not all returns are classified and presented to the operator, and for good reason. for ED to allow it would be unrealistic

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