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How Germany Could Have Taken It All


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As a once active pilot myself (not current, its been many years), I'd like to comment on DSC aircraft...

Now, I've never flown anything above a 172 Cessna so its been a fun virtual DCS experience flying the Mustang, Spitfire and BE109 (so far). Now, "feel" is a big part of flying. That's something you can't get through these sims, but still a hoot to fly.

 

Assuming the flight characteristics are fairly accurate, I must say German pilots had to have been god-like to amass the kills they racked up in that 109! My god its a handful to fly. Where I like the Mustang and love the Spit, I really don't like that 109. I know I've only got a few hours in it and I will certainly dedicate more, but the thing is not a friendly craft to pilot. I can't help but think if Germany also had Spits or Mustangs equivalents, then they would have shot everything out of the sky. Having the success rate they had with 109's, then I hate to think what it would have been in Spits!

 

Mustangs can get you into trouble quick, too. But fly it right and its a doll. Spitfires are spectacular in the air. If it wasn't for the completely dumb wheel brake/taxiing setup, it would be close to perfect for me. 😉

Now don't flame me, it's all a little tongue in cheek, but I do feel that way about the aircraft themselves. I'll comment again after I put some more hours in the 109.

Miccara

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I would say visibility is the biggest issues with both the Fw190 and the Me109. Can't fight what you can't see. Bogie somewhere on your six, you're basically screwed (even more than you normally would be). If used to their strengths, the FW and ME can win a fight. Lose sight of opponent, your only option is to run like hell. That's what a wingman is for, to cover your six. Better to hunt as a pack.

I love the visibility in the Mustang. That more than anything makes it a joy to fly (for me). I would say the benefits of the bubble canopy outweigh the lack of protection.

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One thing that especially more recent online narratives of the Luftwaffe aces and their famous triple-digit kill counts love to omit is that the secret ingredient is to keep on going. Pilots of the Allies generally flew a limited number of missions before they got rotated, not just to give them a personal goal but also to re-post them to training fields and make sure the 'next batch' of pilots would benefit from their experience.

Most of these German aces started out flying over Poland (some of them even over Spain) and racking up high numbers against the early war air forces, many of which were plagued with outdated equipment, poor preparation, ineffective leadership or outdated training, and kept on flying until they were killed themselves or the final surrender.

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  There's nothing wrong with the 109 persay, and it was very competitive all the way to the end of the war. It is a particular kind of fighter, though, and ultimately an older design (albeit one with very advanced features for its era).

 

  As for ''uber German aces'', not to tarnish their shine, but ''a handful of people with ridiculous killl counts'' is indicative of losing the war, more than their inherent capabilities. The Luftwaffe on the Western Front was severely outnumbered. after the invasion of the Soviet Union, only about 300 aircraft were stationed to fight in the France region (the Abbeville boys as they were known), everyone else got transferred to Russia. The same few people were sent up to oppose the Allied raids, raids which were relentless and never ending. They racked up a lot of kills, but also a lot of loses.

 

  Conversely on the Eastern Front, the number disparity was still very present and there was no lull in the fighting once it started in 1941. It was on a scale the West has never really seen with individual battles involving millions of men in some cases and thousands and thousands of planes deployed enmasse. Lots of opportunity for runjing your score up, but lots of opportunity to die, too. Erich Hartmann flew in the East and was shot down over a dozen times, for example, any one of which could have been fatal.

 

  It was similar with the Japanese, with a few pilots racking up very high scores, again, indicative of being overstretched and losing the war.

 

  Allied pilots typically would fight a couple ToDs, then rotate home to serve as a trainer, consultant, etc. Their counts were lower because of inferior skill, but because there were targets to go around between MANY more pilots, and they typically had only a narrow window to get them before their tour of duty ended. Germans and Japanese flew until they died. Many of them did.


Edited by Mars Exulte
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The troll formerly known as Zhukov

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When the ME109 and other aircraft were built they were deliberately sabotaged by the people who made them because they were against the Nazi's. It happened across the whole country as well as that the pilots were intimidated and bullied into never flying a proper dogfight but instead flying in a circle together. The bombers were sabotaged in one key area the fuel tank gauge which never worked properly so aircraft did run out of fuel because of it. Their aces did not manage to get as high a number of kills as broadcast, there was a lot of falsifying of records for the propaganda. The FW190 was a Nazi Party only aircraft and it got sabotaged a lot. Unlike in the UK with the Spitfire and Mustang there was no sabotaging, it is also a Nazi way of thinking to sabotage ones own equipment.(even today they do this!)

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a rear view mirror on the FW 190 would be nice. i suspect a lot of neck pain sufferers never made it back to complain about it.... just saying 🤔

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wrt pilot skills. yes, i think those who actually managed to find good strategies with these machines obviously "re-cycled" at higher rate due to the fact they actually managed to come back to fight another day... and then to be shot down. being outnumbered definitely has its disadvantages. 

ask any deep ocean sailing team. they would rather have a higher number of "not so special" sailors on board to share the load than fewer very good sailors. the workload does one in... mistakes will be made... 😒

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Erich "Bubi" Hartmann, the most successful fighter pilot in the history of air combat was once asked how he was able to score 352 confirmed kills and he answered: "Not because i was the best around, in fact i wasn't. But because the russians in general were poor pilots". So the high scores of german pilots on the eastern front was also made possible by poor skills of the enemy. The russians feared that guy so much (they called him the black devil, because his BF109 was painted in a black-jagged pattern), that the germans even painted the aircrafts of rookie pilots in the way Hartmanns Bf109 was painted to give them a better chance of survivability. Scared the shit out of the communists.

1 hour ago, SUBS17 said:

(even today they do this!)

Today? Who?

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21 hours ago, VpR81 said:

Erich "Bubi" Hartmann, the most successful fighter pilot in the history of air combat was once asked how he was able to score 352 confirmed kills and he answered: "Not because i was the best around, in fact i wasn't. But because the russians in general were poor pilots". So the high scores of german pilots on the eastern front was also made possible by poor skills of the enemy. The russians feared that guy so much (they called him the black devil, because his BF109 was painted in a black-jagged pattern), that the germans even painted the aircrafts of rookie pilots in the way Hartmanns Bf109 was painted to give them a better chance of survivability. Scared the shit out of the communists.

Today? Who?

 

I've had to work with a few of their kind in the past they are always of the belief that everyone is a "POOR THING" who is not a Nazi race and must die. There are many where I live, they easily stand out in society, they sabotage other peoples equipment and others of their own kind and are extremely racist. BTW Russia had many very good pilots, they dominated the air in the eastern front towards the end when they managed to get aircraft from the USA, it is fake history and reports that paints a picture of them suffering high loses. The Luftwaffe always lied to their bosses in Berlin over actual kills, if people were to go to Russia and count the wreckage's of crashed aircraft it would paint a very different picture. Some good pilots include Galand and Molders.(Molders was assassinated in front of Hitler by a pilot in another ME109.) Some German pilots actually only ever shot down other German pilots.(There was always resistance against the Nazi!)  Some other interesting things the V1 flying bomb was always piloted and in most cases people flew them against their will across the Chanel under coercion.  


Edited by SUBS17
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4 hours ago, SUBS17 said:

 BTW Russia had many very good pilots, they dominated the air in the eastern front towards the end when they managed to get aircraft from the USA, it is fake history and reports that paints a picture of them suffering high loses. The Luftwaffe always lied to their bosses in Berlin over actual kills, if people were to go to Russia and count the wreckage's of crashed aircraft it would paint a very different picture. Some good pilots include Galand and Molders.(Molders was assassinated in front of Hitler by a pilot in another ME109.) Some German pilots actually only ever shot down other German pilots.(There was always resistance against the Nazi!)  Some other interesting things the V1 flying bomb was always piloted and in most cases people flew them against their will across the Chanel under coercion.

I want some of what you've been smokin'...


Edited by VpR81
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19 hours ago, VpR81 said:

 

I want some of what you've been smokin'...

 

A few things that you did not know, Galand lost a brand new BF110. It was taken from him by someone in the air. Also there was a Spitfire painted black that flew over Germany regularly and attacked supply columns and airbases. Both the Black Spitfire and the BF110 that was stolen off Galand were seen defending Israel after the war. The BF110 had its swastika painted over. There were 22 aircraft used to defend Israel which included P51 Mustangs, Spitfires, BF110 and other stolen Luftwaffe aircraft including a pair of Stuka's. The aircraft defended Israel and operated from a remote desert airstrip. The black spitfire had a single 20mm cannon which has killed T55, T62 and T72's using AP ammunition. None of these aircraft are in museums.    

3 hours ago, otto said:

 

Couldn't have put it better myself. 

You must believe that the flying bomb can fly itself....incredible Auschwitz incredible.

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24 minutes ago, SUBS17 said:

It was taken from him by someone in the air

From who? Let me guess, aliens from Mars took it? Or was it Superman? Ah no, it was Batman. Right? 🤣

 

25 minutes ago, SUBS17 said:

.incredible Auschwitz incredible.

Fishing in dangerous waters here. I wonder if this comment is worth to report.🤔

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37 minutes ago, SUBS17 said:

A few things that you did not know, Galand lost a brand new BF110. It was taken from him by someone in the air. Also there was a Spitfire painted black that flew over Germany regularly and attacked supply columns and airbases. Both the Black Spitfire and the BF110 that was stolen off Galand were seen defending Israel after the war. The BF110 had its swastika painted over. There were 22 aircraft used to defend Israel which included P51 Mustangs, Spitfires, BF110 and other stolen Luftwaffe aircraft including a pair of Stuka's. The aircraft defended Israel and operated from a remote desert airstrip. The black spitfire had a single 20mm cannon which has killed T55, T62 and T72's using AP ammunition. None of these aircraft are in museums.    

You must believe that the flying bomb can fly itself....incredible Auschwitz incredible.

Something tell's me your Storys are full of truth. Is there more? Sound's intressting your history lesson...


Edited by MAD-MM
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Once you have tasted Flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your Eyes turned Skyward.

 

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23 hours ago, VpR81 said:

From who? Let me guess, aliens from Mars took it? Or was it Superman? Ah no, it was Batman. Right? 🤣

 

Fishing in dangerous waters here. I wonder if this comment is worth to report.🤔

 

It was a team sent to defend Israel, if you go to Beersheva and visit their museum it does mention a little about them but it is just that they were there. Do not worry about Auschwitz, he knows he used to work there. There is actually bounties on all of them. lol There were a few units that during World War 2 operated behind enemy lines. 1 was a Black Spitfire, the 2nd was a Black Churchill tank. The tank attacked airfields and factories in Germany. Both operated during Dunkirk with the Churchill attacking Supply, Logistics and Artillery units. 

The same group showed up each time Israel was invaded.

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Hate to say this but... why hasnt any admin action been taken on this dude? Hes literally just trolling and derailing threads here.

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coming back on topic, i would say if focus was put on basic usability instead of screaming performance, there would be a lot less self owns. decently positioned and logical landing gear mechanisms for starters would be nice. i have yet to see if any of the german fighters actually had rear view mirrors? like, this is basic stuff that could save your butt. who cares if it decreases top speed by 2 knots. and there is no way anyone will convince me it was a cost saving strategy.

 

no need for radical wunderwaffe and all that if you can cut down the destruction of aircraft by making it such that successful take off and landings are more consistent. 

 

its almost as though a pilot questioning authority might have been a career ending event or something. 


Edited by nztyke
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on a more serious note, i wonder if more use of timed fused rockets would have worked as a means of taking down a group of close formation bombers. sort of like air to air RPG. these probably existed. it was just a matter of how commonly used and how easy it would be to get the distancing right. you wouldnt need to hit the target directly. simply get into close enough and let the shrapnel do the rest. Air to air flak? AAAA ? alright, never-mind the acronyms then. needs work. 

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1 hour ago, nztyke said:

on a more serious note, i wonder if more use of timed fused rockets would have worked as a means of taking down a group of close formation bombers. sort of like air to air RPG. these probably existed. it was just a matter of how commonly used and how easy it would be to get the distancing right. you wouldnt need to hit the target directly. simply get into close enough and let the shrapnel do the rest. Air to air flak? AAAA ? alright, never-mind the acronyms then. needs work. 

 

  The Germans used aerial mortars and rockets quite extensively. The problem is even a dense formation isn't exactly tip to tip. The planes are apt to be at least a couple hundred feet apart, so unless you're lobbing something truly gigantic it's not going to do tooooo much. They did increase overall damage though, employed enmasse by a large formation. Made a hell of a first pass.

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4 hours ago, Mars Exulte said:

 

  The Germans used aerial mortars and rockets quite extensively. The problem is even a dense formation isn't exactly tip to tip. The planes are apt to be at least a couple hundred feet apart, so unless you're lobbing something truly gigantic it's not going to do tooooo much. They did increase overall damage though, employed enmasse by a large formation. Made a hell of a first pass.

 

 

Mortars.....where?

21 hours ago, dundun92 said:

Hate to say this but... why hasnt any admin action been taken on this dude? Hes literally just trolling and derailing threads here.

 

Go to Israel before you say anymore as you clearly know nothing of History in that region. And you are the one with the problem.

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On 4/7/2021 at 8:04 AM, nztyke said:

simply get into close enough

'its never as easy as it sounds' t. clawswits


Edited by probad

hahaha hey look at me i surely know more about aviation and coding than actual industry professionals hired for their competency because i have read jalopnik and wikipedia i bet theyve never even heard of google LOL

 

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