Ergonomic issue with the ORION throttle - Opposite angle. Winwing, any feedback ?

[FZG_Immel]

I need to post this here, because this is a important issue.

 

I am the recent owner of Orion HOTAS, and im gonna focus on the throttle for the time being.

 

I am very happy with all the buttons, switches, rotaries etc. Coming from a Cougar and a Warthog, I fully appreciate all this quality and the software which drives it.

 

But, there is a MAIN ISSUE, and I could feel it from day one, but I didnt figure it until right now...

 

When I hold the Orion in my hand,i feel like there isnt enough support on the outside of my palm, on the the left side. it forces you to rotate your wrist to the left to get a full grip, like pushing your elbow out.  

 

I couldnt figure the problem until i went and check the throttles in the F/A-18 of DCS...

 

here are two pictures that will make it clear...  

 

first the DCS Hornet throttle, which should be 100% scale..

 

 

as you can see there is a positive angle , which makes the left throttle rest closer to the hand of the pilot when throttles are aligned.

 

now, here is the picture of the orion, see from top down as well..

 

 

As you can see, this angle is OPPOSITE... the right part of the throttle, sits closer to the hand of the pilot than the left... and it should be the OPPOSITE...

As you can also see in this picture, I tried compensating from that a little bit, by orientiing the whole base to the left (blue line and angle)  on my cockpit console, so that now, the throttle kinda sit straight in from of my left hand.. But that isnt enough to make it feel right, and I do not think I want to rotate it even more to the outside...

 

As you can see, there is a simple explanation of WHY the throttle doesnt feel right in the hand.. and it is really a SHAME because other than that its a GREAT product so far. 

 

my issue is that there isnt really a way to fix this. I can try placing shims in between the throttle handle and there axis, to shift them to the left, but that will leave me with a step in between the 2 handle when throttles are at the same setting...

 

Anyway, here it is. I hope everyone understand what I mean.

 

If I made any mistake in assembling the throttles, or anything, I apologize, and I would be glad to be proven prong, but I dont think I am...  unfortunately.

 

 

question. Do Super Taurus user have the same issue ?

Edited April 4, 2021 by FZG_Immel
changed the title to better describe the issue

[wilbur81]

Wow! Good catch/post.  I'd be very interested to see how others will feel about this... on the Orion or Taurus?

 

[mseraser]

 

Taurus drawing from offical manual

 

and real hornet throttle

[Dudikoff]

Hmm, good catch, wonder how nobody else noticed this yet? The Warthog throttle handles are at least straight on the backside, not canted inwards like the WinWing. So, for WW to be comfortable it should be almost right in front of you rather than beside you.

 

To fix this, they'd have to redesign and remold the handles I guess. Perhaps if enough people complained on their FB page, they would eventually.

 

A plug in fix might be to design some kind of add-on parts which would stick to current handles and straighten the angle at least.

Edited April 3, 2021 by Dudikoff

[FZG_Immel]

Honestly, i am a bit concerned/upset that none of the reviewers of these products have identified and reported this issue. It's simply IMPOSSIBLE not to notice when you grab the throttles.

 

It's really a shame because its a great product otherwise, but this kinda destroy alter/reduce the ergonomics of the product.

 

from the drawing up there, it seems that it also affect the super taurus the same way. (pic below)

 

 

And the F/A-18C blueprint, confirms what the DCS F/A-18C cockpit was telling me. there is a positive angle to the throttle in the real thing (pic below), and we actually have a negative angle with the Winwing products.

 

 

for the Orion, this could be fixed by creaating a set of twisted throttle arms (as they come as a separate part anyway, that you have to assemble). how much it could be twister and still work, is a question though, because the throttle should still be able to pass one another.

 

Im wondering if 3d printed arms could be made. I'd be a purchaser for sure, because all in all, the Orion throttles are great, but this little detail really ruin the ergonomics.

or maybe winwing could admit a little mistake here, and create such set of arms and provide them (I would by them as well)

 

In the meantime I rotated my throttle base even more to the left, and its now square... but I cannot rotate it mmore to get a positive angle, or I would have to push my throttle 10'o clock....

Edited April 3, 2021 by FZG_Immel

[derociliGDDCS]

Non issue for me.

[FZG_Immel]

Are you sitting on a desktop or a makeshift cockpit ? this could indeed alter the feeling

 

just for fun, rotate your throttle 30 degrees to the left and grab your throttle. And see how much better they fil in your hand.

 

The way they are orientated in the real thing isnt random. It has a purpose

Edited April 3, 2021 by FZG_Immel

[Dudikoff]

If you'd only posted this a few days earlier, I would have delayed ordering the Taurus indefinitely, but I've just gotten my FedEx tracking number so..

 

It remains to be seen how much it will bother me, but I guess the location of the throttle will have to be closer to me than I thought.

Edited April 3, 2021 by Dudikoff

[rob10]

Right or wrong (and from the info it does look like it could be wrong) the reason it probably didn't get mentioned could be that most probably don't notice it.  My Orion throttle doesn't arrive until Monday, so I won't know until then, but the left throttle on the Warthog throttle is canted forward on the left edge as well (similar to the Libra), and I can't say I've ever noticed it as an issue.  The right on the Warthog is canted ever so slightly in the opposite direction so maybe that makes a difference.  I'll know how it feels for me Monday I hope!

Picture of the WH throttle -- the ruler is lined up with the back edge of the throttle body.

 

[FZG_Immel]

I have the warthog as well. I used to tilt my warthog 15° to the left for this very reason.

 

You will see that with the Orion/taurus the fact that its already at a much greater NEGATIVE angle, will make it worse and not as easy fixable as with the warthog.

 

thing is, it is usable anyway, but it is very frustrating, because as soon as you rotate the orion exagerately to the left (like 30°) you immediately feel how the throttle should be, ergonomically speaking. 

 

the fact that no reviewer noticed it is a concern. It felt WRONG the first time I grabbed it in the correct position in my cockpit. and the farther from your body the throttle are, the worst it is.

 

AGAIN; it doesnt change the fact that it is a GREAT product all around, and I very much like both the software, and the hardware. But some twisted throttle arms to fix this would be welcome

 

Edited April 3, 2021 by FZG_Immel

[FoxTwo]

To be honest I didn't even really notice this and don't feel like it's been an issue, and I've been using the super taurus throttle for almost a year now.

 

That said, if you wanted to change the angle of the handles you could probably easily do so by 3d printing some angled mounting spacers and swapping those out for the flat ones they come with.

[Dudikoff]

But, if you change the angle by using twisted holders, how would you move the throttles past each other independently? It wouldn't work.

Edited April 3, 2021 by Dudikoff

[FZG_Immel]

thats why I am saying what would need to be changed would have to be twisting throttle arms. but you could only twist them so much, before the throttle couldnt pass each others. it wouldnt be a total fix, but would be a big sted forward

 

 

3 hours ago, FoxTwo said:

To be honest I didn't even really notice this and don't feel like it's been an issue, and I've been using the super taurus throttle for almost a year now.

 

That said, if you wanted to change the angle of the handles you could probably easily do so by 3d printing some angled mounting spacers and swapping those out for the flat ones they come with.

 

to be honest, i dont even use the spacers right now. I mounted the throttle with, and without them, and i found out i like the throttle better without them.

 

Also, your solution (angled spacers) would create a step on the back and front of the trolttle, when aligned.  Thats why I think the twisted arms would be a better solution.

 

ps: I will try the spacers solution tomorrow, and let you know how it works. that I can do myself. twisted arms, not so much

Edited April 3, 2021 by FZG_Immel

[War_Pig]

FZG, thanks for bringing this to everybody's attention.  I'm working on a Hornet cockpit, and decided about a week ago to buy the winwing taurus.  Today I saw your thread on the other forum and that led me here.  I appreciate your insight and presenting the issue pictorially the way you did.  I agree that a simple spacer or twist of the throttle levers won't solve the issue because it appears the throttle grips would then hit each other.

 

As a RL professional pilot, I see the ergonomics problem and am worried it might drive me nuts.  Considering the price of the throttle, I'm hesitant to pull the trigger now.
Can any other owners, perhaps of the Taurus specifically, shed any light on how the throttle feels ergonomically in a cockpit setup?

[Harlikwin]

I've had a Taurus for about a year and I never noticed any ergo problems. 

[FZG_Immel]

I dont know how you guys that do not notice it, dont, because its pretty obvious why in the real Hornet the throttles are angled that way. The angle of the Winwing throttles are the OTHER way around.

 

rotate your throttle 30 degrees to the left (or turn your body 30 degrees to the right,  and notice how much better they fit in your hand. 

[Harlikwin]

29 minutes ago, FZG_Immel said:

I dont know how you guys that do not notice it, dont, because its pretty obvious why in the real Hornet the throttles are angled that way. The angle of the Winwing throttles are the OTHER way around.

 

rotate your throttle 30 degrees to the left (or turn your body 30 degrees to the right,  and notice how much better they fit in your hand. 

 

I just checked it. It's basically flat on the Taurus. Maybeee like a 5 deg cant at max.  No way its anywhere near 30 degrees. 

 

Also take an exact top down pic of the hornet throttle in vr to compare. 

Edited April 3, 2021 by Harlikwin

[FZG_Immel]

 

I dont need to take a picture of the DCS F/A-18 throttle. Somebody posted a an ACTUAL blueprint of the REAL hornet...

 

basically the backside of the throttles should be  facing your palm llike this -> \  but on the wingwing product it's facing your palm like this -> /

 

i will try posting a few more pictures to describe the 'issue'..

 

 

Imagine what weird alpha there wold be on the right picture if I didnt rotate my base to the left on my left console...

 

now.. compare the Alpha on this to the images posted up here (and keep in mind this is the real F/A-18 blueprint..)

 

 

now of course, thiis is all approx, and my GIMP drawings might accentuate the issue a little bit to illustrate it...  But in the end, the real throttle should face your hand like that -> \ and not like this -> / or even this -> |

 

There is a reason for the angle you see in the blueprint up there. there is a reason for most Hotas throttles to have that specific angle, facing the hand. and its ergonomics.

 

look at the angle (even more than the hornet) of the F-16 throttle

 

 

that angle is to accommodate the shape of your hand. It makes no sense that that angle is reversed on the winwing throttles.

Edited April 3, 2021 by FZG_Immel

[Danimal1306]

1 hour ago, FZG_Immel said:

I dont know how you guys that do not notice it, dont, because its pretty obvious why in the real Hornet the throttles are angled that way. The angle of the Winwing throttles are the OTHER way around.

 

rotate your throttle 30 degrees to the left (or turn your body 30 degrees to the right,  and notice how much better they fit in your hand. 

 

 

  I'd gather most of us mount the HOTAS on our desktop vs. creating a whole PIT.  My biggest concern at the moment after ordering an Orion setup, is the dimensions compared to my old X-52pro.  If it doesn't fit on my desk, I'm in trouble...  From the pics, I think I'm OK, and for the problem you describe, I can most likely change the angle of my desk suction cup mount to make it comfortable.  

[FZG_Immel]

2 hours ago, Danimal1306 said:

 

 

  I'd gather most of us mount the HOTAS on our desktop vs. creating a whole PIT.  My biggest concern at the moment after ordering an Orion setup, is the dimensions compared to my old X-52pro.  If it doesn't fit on my desk, I'm in trouble...  From the pics, I think I'm OK, and for the problem you describe, I can most likely change the angle of my desk suction cup mount to make it comfortable.  

 

if you want I can give you the exact dimensions.

 

Yes, you can rotate the full base to the left to kinda mitigate the issue... but you cannot do it too much, because it makes no sense pushing your thottles forward at 10 o' clock either.

[War_Pig]

2 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

I've had a Taurus for about a year and I never noticed any ergo problems. 

 

Thanks for that input.

If you, or someone else that has the Taurus throttle would be willing to take a top-down picture, I would love to see if there is some kind of difference in how the grips are mounted.  It sounds almost like they're different than the Orion.  I've scoured the net and can't find a direct top-down pic to shed some light on this. 

[FZG_Immel]

I would think their blueprints is precise enough.

 

[Harlikwin]

28 minutes ago, FZG_Immel said:

I would think their blueprints is precise enough.

 

 

Yup that seems to about "ish" what it looks to be for the taurus, seems to be more in the blueprint than IRL. But yes from the real hornet it does seem backwards.

That being said, its not "unergonomic" for me. Frankly it feels fine. Might be a bigger deal on the orion though. 

33 minutes ago, War_Pig said:

 

Thanks for that input.

If you, or someone else that has the Taurus throttle would be willing to take a top-down picture, I would love to see if there is some kind of difference in how the grips are mounted.  It sounds almost like they're different than the Orion.  I've scoured the net and can't find a direct top-down pic to shed some light on this. 

 

The blueprint Immel posted is right, it does seem backwards to what it should be, but the angle there seems more extreme than what I notice IRL, its maybe like 5 degrees. No way its 30 deg unless we are using "man inches" as an angular unit. Frankly I never noticed anything might be wrong until this thread. I run it in VR so I really really don't mostly care about the panel, and I've never had an issue with the actual throttle bit feeling "off".

 

 

Edited April 4, 2021 by Harlikwin

[HuggyBear]

This photo seems to show the alignment of the real throttles. Looks like it aligns more closely with the natural position of the left hand.

 

Edited April 4, 2021 by HuggyBear
Image

[FZG_Immel]

 

3 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

 

Yup that seems to about "ish" what it looks to be for the taurus, seems to be more in the blueprint than IRL. But yes from the real hornet it does seem backwards.

That being said, its not "unergonomic" for me. Frankly it feels fine. Might be a bigger deal on the orion though. 

 

The blueprint Immel posted is right, it does seem backwards to what it should be, but the angle there seems more extreme than what I notice IRL, its maybe like 5 degrees. No way its 30 deg unless we are using "man inches" as an angular unit. Frankly I never noticed anything might be wrong until this thread. I run it in VR so I really really don't mostly care about the panel, and I've never had an issue with the actual throttle bit feeling "off".

 

 

 

 

I never said the angle was 30 degrees. I said turn your grip 30 degrees to feel how it should really feel. 15° one way, or 15° the other, makes a world of difference.

 

maybe its only 20°.. 10 one way or 10 the other... I dont know. I didnt not measure.  fact it, its backward.

 

I think i proved it with enough pics. I rest my case.

 

2 hours ago, HuggyBear said:

This photo seems to show the alignment of the real throttles. Looks like it aligns more closely with the natural position of the left hand.

 

 

unfortunately your pic doesnt show

Edited April 4, 2021 by FZG_Immel