Always been confused with sensors, MFDs and SOI in the Harrier, please help

[Sylosis]

Operating the A-10 and understanding how to display stuff on MFDs, selecting SOIs, etc was more or less clear and easy for me. But, for the Harrier, I am never able to do what I want. So here are my questions:

 

- When pushing the Sensor Select Switch in some direction, for example, to go to "TV", do I need to manually open up the DMT on a MFD and only then will it do something when I push "TV"?

- Another problem I have, is that when I have the TPOD on my right MFD, with the TPOD selected as the SOI (and I can actually read TPOD DES on it). If I push, for example, Sensor Select Aft twice, wanting to switch to TV, it will not behave as I would expect. It stays in the TPOD but does something else. It doesn't change the sensor. I assume this is normal but I don't understand it.

- Related to the above point, that makes it very difficult for me to find a target with my TPOD in order to shoot a Maverick. Because, if I have my TPOD on the right MFD and EHSD on the left, I find my target in the TPOD, push TDC "Action" and then Waypoint Increment hold to set a point of interest on my target... Then I don't know what to do, cause I have both my MFDs used... Pushing SSS aft twice doesn't switch to the TV, as explained above. So how do I rapidly switch to the TV? Cause, correct me if I'm wrong, but I need to go through the TV in order to then uncage the Maverick, which will make the MAV feed appear. Not doing that will not make the MAV feed appear when I uncage and I won't be able to lock and shoot.

So anyway... I could go on and on with other examples of stuff that don't work, but I guess you understand that I just don't get the "philosophy" of how SSS behaves.

Tried reading on the subject, but couldn't find something that helped me understood.

Thanks in advance for the help.

 

 

[Vakarian]

Don't know the SSS functions from the top of my head as I haven't flown it in a while, but your MAVs procedure is off

 

What you want to do is following and it's very simple. Find a target using TPOD. Make sure you are in point track or MT, whichever. Then, you need to go to STRS page (left MPCD, won't work on right one), select MAVs and then press "Uncage". This will bring up the MAV feed on the left MPCD. After that, make sure you do SSS depress (not aft) x2 to go out of TPOD DES, so the TPOD is not "SOI", then do SSS up until you see IRMV on the left MPCD instead of INS, lock the target and rifle away.

 

With a little practice, you can do this "handoff" procedure under 2 seconds easily.

[Recluse]

It's so funny what we get used to. The A-10C was the first module I bought (after FC3) and I never fly it because the switchology was incomprehensible with all the SHORTS and LONGS and SPIs.  I use a COUGAR so, the missing switches (China Hat etc.) had to be compensated for.  The Hornet and Harrier were, by contrast easy to come to grips with, though, especially in the Harrier, it took a lot of attention to follow the NEW procedures that have come with each update ( EHSD Designate,  TPOD  and JDAM changes) but I still find it a lot more straightforward than the A-10C given my VERY limited attention to learning it.  I did find that learning the Hornet helped with the Harrier, though there are some really distinct differences in how the avionics work.

 

Sorry for the digression, but Vakarian explained it well. One clarification, once you hand off to the Maverick (IRMV showing) you need TDC ACTION to lock the target as Vakarian said.  The SSS has different functions whether the DMT is active or the TPOD is the active sensor:

 

When you are in TPOD DES mode, and do 2X SSS Action, you will see TV or INS show up in the TPOD depending on the last sensor, SSS Forward now commands IRMV as it would from the DMT.

 

I believe the table  below represent the current functions

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 1, 2021 by Recluse

[Fri13]

Quick answer, it seems that you are thinking in terms of A-10C where you play with two displays (left and right) as you want, with all sensors.

 

The Harrier has by opinions of many pilots (Hornet, Warthog, Lighting II etc) a far better man-machine interface than those.

https://youtu.be/rk-1cIu9XQs

 

But it requires you to concentrate to the task on the ground, instead playing with displays on the aircraft. That is what makes harrier special that you work far better with the ground units and you are more accurate and timely with the attacks than with any of those others.

 

The SSS is special in way that it is designed to ease the pilot workload by presenting automatically sensors you can select with it to proper sides of displays. Like example map goes always to left, the DMT goes to the right etc.

 

The problem in Harrier currently as well is that it has many systems improperly modeled. Example the TDC doesn't work right at the moment.

The TPOD we have now is 2nd generation from 1999 (same as A-10C) but is receiving in 7th day in DCS 2.7 update the 4th gen pod from 2009, making Harrier the most modern module in DCS (JF-17 IIRC is from 2007 as well like F-16CM) and systems logic is... Very questionable by many parts, meaning there are some functions that don't work right, like after an attack the DMT gimbal limit makes TV/LST display turn to compass rose (EHSD) to assist pilot to fly by showing where is target and own troops and all. And once pilot turns back to target point the TV mode will return and try to acquire a target again for re-attack purposes.

 

The TPOD is afterthought and why it has own "sub-mode" to be controlled with SSS. So you enter and exit specifically that TPOD mode with 2x SSS down. As the TPOD is then primary sensor, you assign all controls to it that SSS does. 

 

So you need to handle the TPOD as individual SSS mode and all others as primary/normal SSS mode.

 

It is best to first train to fly Harrier without TPOD. Just use the DMT and HUD/INS to do the fighting and when you get that, then mount TPOD and it becomes easier to understand.

[Sylosis]

On 4/1/2021 at 2:44 AM, Vakarian said:

Don't know the SSS functions from the top of my head as I haven't flown it in a while, but your MAVs procedure is off

 

What you want to do is following and it's very simple. Find a target using TPOD. Make sure you are in point track or MT, whichever. Then, you need to go to STRS page (left MPCD, won't work on right one), select MAVs and then press "Uncage". This will bring up the MAV feed on the left MPCD. After that, make sure you do SSS depress (not aft) x2 to go out of TPOD DES, so the TPOD is not "SOI", then do SSS up until you see IRMV on the left MPCD instead of INS, lock the target and rifle away.

 

With a little practice, you can do this "handoff" procedure under 2 seconds easily.

 

Well I'm doing exactly this and 9 times out of the ten, I reach the final step which is "locking the Maverick", but TDC depress doesn't work. It just doesn't do anything. In 20 attempts I shot one MAV and that's it and I don't even why that time it worked.

[Sylosis]

On 4/2/2021 at 6:06 AM, Fri13 said:

Quick answer, it seems that you are thinking in terms of A-10C where you play with two displays (left and right) as you want, with all sensors.

 

The Harrier has by opinions of many pilots (Hornet, Warthog, Lighting II etc) a far better man-machine interface than those.

https://youtu.be/rk-1cIu9XQs

 

But it requires you to concentrate to the task on the ground, instead playing with displays on the aircraft. That is what makes harrier special that you work far better with the ground units and you are more accurate and timely with the attacks than with any of those others.

 

The SSS is special in way that it is designed to ease the pilot workload by presenting automatically sensors you can select with it to proper sides of displays. Like example map goes always to left, the DMT goes to the right etc.

 

The problem in Harrier currently as well is that it has many systems improperly modeled. Example the TDC doesn't work right at the moment.

The TPOD we have now is 2nd generation from 1999 (same as A-10C) but is receiving in 7th day in DCS 2.7 update the 4th gen pod from 2009, making Harrier the most modern module in DCS (JF-17 IIRC is from 2007 as well like F-16CM) and systems logic is... Very questionable by many parts, meaning there are some functions that don't work right, like after an attack the DMT gimbal limit makes TV/LST display turn to compass rose (EHSD) to assist pilot to fly by showing where is target and own troops and all. And once pilot turns back to target point the TV mode will return and try to acquire a target again for re-attack purposes.

 

The TPOD is afterthought and why it has own "sub-mode" to be controlled with SSS. So you enter and exit specifically that TPOD mode with 2x SSS down. As the TPOD is then primary sensor, you assign all controls to it that SSS does. 

 

So you need to handle the TPOD as individual SSS mode and all others as primary/normal SSS mode.

 

It is best to first train to fly Harrier without TPOD. Just use the DMT and HUD/INS to do the fighting and when you get that, then mount TPOD and it becomes easier to understand.

This is quite depressing and frustrating to read that Razbam can't deliver, even with something like 3 years after its release... 

 

Edited April 3, 2021 by Sylosis

[Vakarian]

18 hours ago, Sylosis said:

 

Well I'm doing exactly this and 9 times out of the ten, I reach the final step which is "locking the Maverick", but TDC depress doesn't work. It just doesn't do anything. In 20 attempts I shot one MAV and that's it and I don't even why that time it worked.

Here, I've done now 4 strikes with IR Mav, both with TPOD and with DMT used to find the targets. No issues if you do what I have described. I'll post you track files and a mission so you can try it for yourself. It's really not difficult, but requires some practice to learn all muscle memory. Just a noe, on the last shot with the TPOD, I have jinked my TDC off target so I manually slewed MAV sensor to the target and fired.

 

Btw, what could be your issue is you try to lock target from very far away and this is what I have tried to show here. When trying to lock a target from 10+ nm, it won't lock and will go into "break lock" mode (crosshair wide open). Try to lock target when under 10nm and it should work.

 

I see here that I forgot to mention something which I thought was obvious. If you are not in A/G master mode, Mav won't fire. You could get a lock and everything, but if not in A/G master mode, it will not launch.

AGM-65Test.trk AGM-65TestWithTPOD.trk AGM-65F test.miz

[Sylosis]

17 minutes ago, Vakarian said:

Here, I've done now 4 strikes with IR Mav, both with TPOD and with DMT used to find the targets. No issues if you do what I have described. I'll post you track files and a mission so you can try it for yourself. It's really not difficult, but requires some practice to learn all muscle memory. Just a noe, on the last shot with the TPOD, I have jinked my TDC off target so I manually slewed MAV sensor to the target and fired.

 

Btw, what could be your issue is you try to lock target from very far away and this is what I have tried to show here. When trying to lock a target from 10+ nm, it won't lock and will go into "break lock" mode (crosshair wide open). Try to lock target when under 10nm and it should work.

 

I see here that I forgot to mention something which I thought was obvious. If you are not in A/G master mode, Mav won't fire. You could get a lock and everything, but if not in A/G master mode, it will not launch.

AGM-65Test.trk 917.49 kB · 1 download AGM-65TestWithTPOD.trk 908.08 kB · 1 download AGM-65F test.miz 8.41 kB · 1 download

Thanks for that, you are very helpful. 

One thing I noticed, watching your tracks versus what I was doing... I think that the only potential difference that I was doing, is that I left "designate" boxed in the EHSD. Could this have caused trouble?

 

On one occurrence, I was frantically pressing TDC Depress to lock the MAV. I was at 7 NM and closing. It finally worked when I was at 3 NM, but I was just spamming TDC Depress. On future runs, I unboxed Designate in the EHSD and did not have that same issue. 

[Vakarian]

Designate has no relevance. I only boxed DESG to slave DMT to the WP on the "X" runway, so it shouldn't cause you any trouble.

Also, make sure you use FOV button on MAV to get in the narrow FOV. That gives you "zoomed" picture and it will be easier to lock a target

[Fri13]

1 hour ago, Sylosis said:

I think that the only potential difference that I was doing, is that I left "designate" boxed in the EHSD. Could this have caused trouble?

 

At this moment the DESG is required to be boxed manually from EHSD to get a navigation guidance toward the target, AUTO delivery fall line and as well weapons to be released.

 

It was one change in the December'20 patch that doesn't make sense and Razbam insist it is [as intended] (that is not same thing as "correct as-is") because the NATOPS states differently how it should behave. There is more about it in here:

 

 

 

And of course here:

 

 

 

Does it matter to Air-to-Ground missile delivery? I don't now recall and can't test it. But at least it denies to release bombs in AUTO or CCIP modes on me.

 

But I still recommend to leave TPOD off for first times as it is a extra step. Where using just the DMT/TV mode allows you to quickly just get mavericks out (AFAIK as well incorrect manner) as long you have STORE page open at left DDI as when you press Uncage/Cage button in throttle it will open Maverick IR video to left DDI. Then it will cage to DMT/TV position and you only need to press SSS Up to IRMV mode and press TDC Down (Action) to lock it.

 

1. DMT/TV on target

2. Uncage (STORE page open on left)

3. SSS Up to IRMV

4. TDC DOWN

5. Launch

 

And you repeat process by switching back to TV (by SSS Aft) and search new target.

 

"IRMV video appears on the stores

page or left MPCD with each initial

uncage command only. If another

display such as the EHSD is selected

while IRMV video is displayed (i.e.,

via sensor select switch left HOTAS

command), select MENU/STRS to

return to IRMV video."

 

So you should be able have a EHSD (or any) page open on left DDI when you press Uncage in throttle. And then left DDI would show IR Maverick video.  So not required to be in STRS page like now.

But, you can't get back to IR Maverick video with Uncage if you switch to any other page after that, but need to open STRS page to get it visible again.

 

This doesn't work at the moment properly IIRC, as you need to have STRS page open to begin with the Maverick video when you press Uncage.

[DimSim]

I relate to the OP. I've flown the Harrier for quite some time but only just started learning the A-10. I'm finding the A-10 easier to understand and more reliable to operate sensors and weapons. I say reliable because I still find the AV-8B sensors sometimes behave as if frozen until I reset them.

[Sylosis]

On 4/3/2021 at 6:19 PM, Fri13 said:

 

At this moment the DESG is required to be boxed manually from EHSD to get a navigation guidance toward the target, AUTO delivery fall line and as well weapons to be released.

 

It was one change in the December'20 patch that doesn't make sense and Razbam insist it is [as intended] (that is not same thing as "correct as-is") because the NATOPS states differently how it should behave. There is more about it in here:

 

 

 

And of course here:

 

 

Does it matter to Air-to-Ground missile delivery? I don't now recall and can't test it. But at least it denies to release bombs in AUTO or CCIP modes on me.

 

But I still recommend to leave TPOD off for first times as it is a extra step. Where using just the DMT/TV mode allows you to quickly just get mavericks out (AFAIK as well incorrect manner) as long you have STORE page open at left DDI as when you press Uncage/Cage button in throttle it will open Maverick IR video to left DDI. Then it will cage to DMT/TV position and you only need to press SSS Up to IRMV mode and press TDC Down (Action) to lock it.

 

1. DMT/TV on target

2. Uncage (STORE page open on left)

3. SSS Up to IRMV

4. TDC DOWN

5. Launch

 

And you repeat process by switching back to TV (by SSS Aft) and search new target.

 

"IRMV video appears on the stores

page or left MPCD with each initial

uncage command only. If another

display such as the EHSD is selected

while IRMV video is displayed (i.e.,

via sensor select switch left HOTAS

command), select MENU/STRS to

return to IRMV video."

 

So you should be able have a EHSD (or any) page open on left DDI when you press Uncage in throttle. And then left DDI would show IR Maverick video.  So not required to be in STRS page like now.

But, you can't get back to IR Maverick video with Uncage if you switch to any other page after that, but need to open STRS page to get it visible again.

 

This doesn't work at the moment properly IIRC, as you need to have STRS page open to begin with the Maverick video when you press Uncage.

A lot of good information here, thank you.