Jump to content

Flying helicopter in real


cromhunt

Recommended Posts

Ok "fri13"

i quoted some words of your previoust post,because you describe good enough and with a better english than me what a real pilot think about all that stuffs.


Unfortunatly you stray in a wrong direction with your citations and once more videos that mean nothing about the "flying helicopter in real".
This thread has not been created to make DCS the pope of simulators.I don't care about his main business.
And further how his devs are intended to do.
It could be something about food that would even not make me thinking  about to eat of something.
And about your appreciations of talent of real pilot to understand how his machine works,you are completly wrong.
So wrong that i wonder if you know what kind of knowledge are requested to give a licence?.
Thus if you come like the other for flood this thread with useless references;

i invite you to do that on another thread.

 

If you and other nerds don't know how demonstrate a stuff without all your iniquitous videos ,quotes,whitness,
and don't know only talk about a subject with your words and understanding about that you experienced in real.

You are not welcome on this thread.
I'm waiting for anyone able to relate his feeling while piloting a real helicopter.

I don't care about your wiki encyclopedy,and all bullshits that you gathered.

Now if you want to talk with me about all other things out of this thread,

you can join me here:

https://discord.gg/YwBwyuQ

 

Thanks in advance.


Edited by cromhunt
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

6 hours ago, cromhunt said:

what kind of knowledge are requested to give a licence?

I think Fri13 is a brilliant guy. What i find far more concerning, a "real" pilot that doesn't even raise an eyebrow while flying the Gazelle in DCS and thinks that some real world aerodynamic feature could hold an explanation. I'm sorry, but the only explanation i have for this behaviour is absence of knowledge. And you also will not be able to find any real world physics reference, because the problem doesn't exist in the real world. It was solely created with the release of the Gazelle module for DCS five years ago and hopefully be gone with a future patch that would raise the level of the Gazelle module to DCS's standards.


Edited by RealDCSpilot
  • Thanks 1

i9 13900K @5.5GHz, Z790 Gigabyte Aorus Master, RTX4090 Waterforce, 64 GB DDR5 @5600, Pico 4, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with Rhino FFB base made by VPforce, DCS: all modules

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Honestly I have no idea about the position of my cyclic while flying. I know it's in front of me, that's it.

What I know for sure is where I want to go/do and what I have to do to acheive this. I also look outside a lot.

 

  • Like 2

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/2/2021 at 5:43 AM, RealDCSpilot said:

@Rogue Trooper
Goodness... Please don't be the clueless gamer, you obviously only scratched the surface of DCS. Switch from the Gazelle with super simplified joystick mode to ED helicopters with a Komodo Simulation or Puma PAS cyclic in springless trimmer mode or a FFB stick in default trimmer mode first before posting such nonsense. You'll get the experience how a cyclic works for the first time and it will definitely work as an eye opener and gamechanger for heli flightsims in general for you. You'll see for the first time what DCS really has to offer. It's like going from a gamepad in Mario Kart to a racing wheel controller in a racing sim. The difference is that even Mario Kart gets most of it's basics right, the Gazelle module... not. Then come back here please, we can start talking on the same level.

 

I would say I have around 700 - 800 hours in the KA-50, I say this because I have re-installed DCS soooo many times..... reality is probably closer to 1000 to 1200 Hours

My lowest flight time module is the Huey which probably stands at around 400 hours.... but I am not sure.... could be lower, could be higher.

The MI-8 was released very quickly after the Huey and I just fell in love with it, 700 hours is probably a good number.

 

I love precision combat machines, DCS Gazelle fits that bill perfectly in DCS..... there is no other.... yet.

 

You just value different things to me RealDCSpilot.... I love weapon and how to use its assets.... you love flight model above everything else.

When we get both together in the Gazelle module we will both be very happy.... me especially!


Edited by Rogue Trooper
  • Like 2

HP G2 Reverb, Windows 10 VR settings: IPD is 64.5mm, High image quality, G2 reset to 60Hz refresh rate as standard. OpenXR user, Open XR tool kit disabled. Open XR was a massive upgrade for me.

DCS: Pixel Density 1.0, Forced IPD at 55 (perceived world size), 0 X MSAA, 0 X SSAA. My real IPD is 64.5mm. Prescription VROptition lenses installed. VR Driver system: I9-9900KS 5Ghz CPU. XI Hero motherboard and RTX 3090 graphics card, 64 gigs Ram, No OC at the mo. MT user  (2 - 5 fps gain). DCS run at 60Hz.

Vaicom user. Thrustmaster warthog user. MFG pedals with damper upgrade.... and what an upgrade! Total controls Apache MPDs set to virtual Reality height with brail enhancements to ensure 100% button activation in VR.. Simshaker Jet Pro vibration seat.. Uses data from DCS not sound.... you know when you are dropping into VRS with this bad boy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Rogue Trooper said:

You just value different things to me RealDCSpilot.... I love weapon and how to use its assets.... you love flight model above everything else.

Not exactly, but i usually expect a good flight model for a paid module first before everything else in DCS.

i9 13900K @5.5GHz, Z790 Gigabyte Aorus Master, RTX4090 Waterforce, 64 GB DDR5 @5600, Pico 4, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with Rhino FFB base made by VPforce, DCS: all modules

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Then you should certainly avoid the upcoming AH-64 Apache from ED. I wonder how FM enthusiasts will react to its FM after what Wags shared last week on the Air Combat Sim podcast.

  • Like 1

3rd Wing | 55th Black Alligators * BA-33

Εις ανηρ ουδεις ανηρ

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, tugais said:

Then you should certainly avoid the upcoming AH-64 Apache from ED. I wonder how FM enthusiasts will react to its FM after what Wags shared last week on the Air Combat Sim podcast.

Well, at least the Apache will fly like a helicopter and not like a LM.

 

 

The Kiowa will show PC's dedication to a FM.

I'm honestly curious about it. They deserve a second chance.

 

Fox

  • Like 3
Spoiler

PC Specs: Ryzen 9 5900X, 3080ti, 64GB RAM, Oculus Quest 3

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, iFoxRomeo said:

Well, at least the Apache will fly like a helicopter and not like a LM.


You don't know that, unless you're part of the dev team ?

 

Wags said last week the team lacks informations about the FM and that they would rely on the feeling from Apache pilots to create a FM for the aircraft. I found the interview really interesting in that regards.

  • Like 1

3rd Wing | 55th Black Alligators * BA-33

Εις ανηρ ουδεις ανηρ

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, tugais said:


You don't know that, unless you're part of the dev team ?

 

Wags said last week the team lacks informations about the FM and that they would rely on the feeling from Apache pilots to create a FM for the aircraft. I found the interview really interesting in that regards.

I don't need to be in the DEV team. ED showed that they have a understanding of helicopter specific aerodynamics. That's why I am sure that the Apache will fly like a helicopter and not like a LM. But will it by true to the Apache? I hope it comes close.

  • Like 2
Spoiler

PC Specs: Ryzen 9 5900X, 3080ti, 64GB RAM, Oculus Quest 3

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ED with 3 chopper modules that all have more or less perfect FM's.

PC with 1 chopper module that is questionable.

 

I know which one of those will get my money. And that doesn't just count for the FM, the Gazelle has neither complex weapons nor complex systems to make up for its price tag, and for the few things it does have it's still mediocre - I for one can't stand the arbitrary "lock-on" solution used for the Viviane that makes targeting while on the move very clunky, and multi-crew was just an empty promise that we're still waiting to ever see.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team

We get lots of feedback from users about flight models, some have first hand experience, some have knowledge on flight dynamics, others say things like " it does not feel right "

 

unless you have data and proof that their is a problem with a flight model you wont get far. We work the data, we have SME / pilot feed back, the flight models we do are as close as you will get to the real thing sat in your chair at home. 

 

When the AH-64D is in early access we look forward to your constructive criticism and feedback.

 

thanks

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

smallCATPILOT.PNG.04bbece1b27ff1b2c193b174ec410fc0.PNG

Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status

Windows 11, NVIDIA MSI RTX 3090, Intel® i9-10900K 3.70GHz, 5.30GHz Turbo, Corsair Hydro Series H150i Pro, 64GB DDR @3200, ASUS ROG Strix Z490-F Gaming, HP Reverb G2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To put it simply for the non pilots, I’m sure most of you have a drivers license and drive a car regularly. Just take a moment and think about driving. All your actions are instinctive, based on experience and muscle memory. You feel the resistance in the car when you turn the wheel, change road surfaces, incline, wind, at the same time you subconsciously depress the accelerator to compensate. You don’t look at the steering wheel as you turn it, you don’t look where the gear stick is so you can manipulate it, you don’t look down at the pedal to see which one you are pressing and by how much, it is all instinctive. Now with that in mind, go and play a driving game and compare your realise experience and sitting in your room in front of a monitor. 
 

A simulator is good for real pilots for practicing procedures, following checklists, converting from one system to another, however, every real pilot will tell you that their military or civilian flight simulators give very little to no physical feed back in how that aircraft is flying, seat of the pants feed back. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Rabies said:

To put it simply for the non pilots, I’m sure most of you have a drivers license and drive a car regularly. Just take a moment and think about driving. All your actions are instinctive, based on experience and muscle memory. You feel the resistance in the car when you turn the wheel, change road surfaces, incline, wind, at the same time you subconsciously depress the accelerator to compensate. You don’t look at the steering wheel as you turn it, you don’t look where the gear stick is so you can manipulate it, you don’t look down at the pedal to see which one you are pressing and by how much, it is all instinctive. Now with that in mind, go and play a driving game and compare your realise experience and sitting in your room in front of a monitor. 
 

A simulator is good for real pilots for practicing procedures, following checklists, converting from one system to another, however, every real pilot will tell you that their military or civilian flight simulators give very little to no physical feed back in how that aircraft is flying, seat of the pants feed back. 

Whenever I read generalization, my bullshit warning gets triggered. Generally I hate generalizations🤪

 

A part task trainer won't give you physical feedback, yet it's still called simulator. A full flight simulator will give you physical feedback, though it can be a "not type-correct" feedback, but similar to that. And sometimes it gives very wrong feedback.

In a FFS you don't have a helicopter simulation like in the current Gazelle. You have to trim, you have to compensate, you have to fly it like a helicopter with all its glory. Stick centered? Only during start up, taxi and shutdown. Once lifting into the air, the centerposition of the cyclic is only a "transient" position, otherwise you would kiss the ground sooner than you like to. And that is what you get in a FFS.

Your muscle memory argument is not correct. Just because you have some kind of automatisation, doesn't mean it is irrelevant how an aircraft behaves. Especially in an aircraft you have to always compensate for the weather/environment. You won't manipulate the controls in the mountains with up and down drafts in the same way you would in 5000ft high pressure zero wind situation. Fly (inadvertent) IMC and you can throw away your muscle memory.

 

To give a "car" example: On road and off road, the same car behaves differently.

 

Fox

  • Like 2
Spoiler

PC Specs: Ryzen 9 5900X, 3080ti, 64GB RAM, Oculus Quest 3

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/10/2021 at 10:39 PM, tugais said:

Then you should certainly avoid the upcoming AH-64 Apache from ED. I wonder how FM enthusiasts will react to its FM after what Wags shared last week on the Air Combat Sim podcast.

 

Problem is not that KA-50 or AH-64 flies differently than conventional helicopter like R-22, but that Gazelle flight modeling is not realistic

The KA-50 can fly automatically through your whole flight plan if you so want, without really touching controls than very few times. That is not the problem. 

The AH-64 has as well amazing autopilot system etc, that is not the problem because that is realistic.

 

The "This feels wrong" is a sense that requires more investigation. It can't be used directly, but it is a cue that something requires investigation (it can be the FM code, it can be the player controls, it can be the player expectation by the visual senses etc) as somewhere is something that is causing such a sense. 

 

Like how does someone explain the feeling that something is not correct, and they alter their usual daily behavior pattern and it does save them?

Like how do you provide evidence for cases like you live in a another part of the country and suddenly you get feeling that you need to call to someone you haven't talked with for months or years, and it happens that they are calling to you with same urge to talk with you on the moment you pick the phone on hand and it rings?

 

The feeling is strong thing to react for, it requires investigation and checking, but it can't be used as only reasoning that how to change things or that change is even required.

 

i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S.

i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Rabies said:

To put it simply for the non pilots, I’m sure most of you have a drivers license and drive a car regularly. Just take a moment and think about driving. All your actions are instinctive, based on experience and muscle memory. You feel the resistance in the car when you turn the wheel, change road surfaces, incline, wind, at the same time you subconsciously depress the accelerator to compensate. You don’t look at the steering wheel as you turn it, you don’t look where the gear stick is so you can manipulate it, you don’t look down at the pedal to see which one you are pressing and by how much, it is all instinctive. Now with that in mind, go and play a driving game and compare your realise experience and sitting in your room in front of a monitor. 

 

In time it becomes instinctive, but at the first when you driving example a new car, you have no idea what is wrong or what is right. You only can assume that things are right.

If you drive that same car 10 years, you will learn very well that something is not right if you have put effort to learn its behaviors and you have way to "listen them".

You can feel when there is something in your tire or when the oil is too low, or when the car is lighter because you have just 1/2 of the fuel instead typical full etc. 

 

2 hours ago, Rabies said:

A simulator is good for real pilots for practicing procedures, following checklists, converting from one system to another, however, every real pilot will tell you that their military or civilian flight simulators give very little to no physical feed back in how that aircraft is flying, seat of the pants feed back. 

 

Yes as it was pointed out in the Youtube event here real pilots flew against AI as dogfight where the AI knew all the flight parameters of the pilots aircraft, it was pointed out multiple times that the pilots had troubles to fly as they didn't have any of the physical feedbacks to assist them in flying. Like they didn't hear or feel what their AoA was but were required to check it visually from the HUD. They didn't feel the G forces to different directions to tell them what is their attitude and how much they can pull more etc. 

 

But, that is more extreme situations. In helicopter you are more or less in 1G parameter and it is visual indicators and feeling how you are required to move hands and legs to perform the familiar flight maneuvers etc. You get quickly a good feeling when something is off or not right. And when it is so obvious as already explained multiple times that your cyclic doesn't even behave properly, you can't really feel it when it is totally wrong. 

 

It is like if suddenly you would need to be pulling and pushing your car wheel to accelerate and decelerate instead using pedals.

And if you go to say someone "In the real thing you need to use legs to change speed" and you get back as "It is realistic to have the wheel going that way because Cessna 172 has it that way too", then how would arguments go from that point forward?

 

Simulators provide excellent means to do that checklists and practicing procedures, but that is more as in the 2D. The VR makes things totally different experience already. You start to feel and see things differently even when you are sitting in the same chair and front of the same table. 

 

Like in the first times when people got to fly in VR, they got all the fancy feelings how their bodies reacted to just visual feedback. Like making a dive in a helicopter and it came from their stomach as a feeling that they just pulled high G. Nothing like that can be achieved with the display. It is not even possible to get the experience and the feedback that would indicate you that something is not right what you just did. 

 

 

 

i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S.

i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

To set this straight.... and it simply amazes me that I need to keep pushing this.

There should be no mistake with my discussion, The gazelles ability is superb when it comes to fulfilling its requirement to integrate into the Digital Combat Simulation as it stands right now. Its ability to survive in a complex modern combat zone is assured... there is no argument here.

SP or MP the KA-50 pilot would love a Gazelle flying wing during a mission.... it is just equipped for the worst DCS can throw at it! 

 

It does need work on its flight model... it does..... always did!

 

I just simply value something different, I value the weapon and its ability to hunt.

 

The Hind FM will be superb at release, hopefully as good as the MI-8 when it was released. In the years that followed, the MI-8 became it an absolute legend in DCS.

I hope and prey that the Hind will be as the MI-8 is now.. the greatest chopper ever released in DCS.

 

The Apache will be true bliss to me, especially the machine we will get. Even without the radar it will be superb.

Personally, However,  I like any optically/laser guided missile based chopper, to have its optics/laser mounted on the roof of the chopper.... but that is just me and how I feel I can safely push the weapon into the battle field..

 

 

 


Edited by Rogue Trooper
  • Like 1

HP G2 Reverb, Windows 10 VR settings: IPD is 64.5mm, High image quality, G2 reset to 60Hz refresh rate as standard. OpenXR user, Open XR tool kit disabled. Open XR was a massive upgrade for me.

DCS: Pixel Density 1.0, Forced IPD at 55 (perceived world size), 0 X MSAA, 0 X SSAA. My real IPD is 64.5mm. Prescription VROptition lenses installed. VR Driver system: I9-9900KS 5Ghz CPU. XI Hero motherboard and RTX 3090 graphics card, 64 gigs Ram, No OC at the mo. MT user  (2 - 5 fps gain). DCS run at 60Hz.

Vaicom user. Thrustmaster warthog user. MFG pedals with damper upgrade.... and what an upgrade! Total controls Apache MPDs set to virtual Reality height with brail enhancements to ensure 100% button activation in VR.. Simshaker Jet Pro vibration seat.. Uses data from DCS not sound.... you know when you are dropping into VRS with this bad boy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/2/2021 at 10:45 AM, RealDCSpilot said:

 

Just another perfect video showing cyclic control and airframe reaction. You move the cyclic, aircraft reacts and it's attitude stays where cyclic input commands it to stay.
 


If you want to make the heli bank at a certain angle to the right, you put cyclic to the right and hold it there. It's so easy to understand and all we want for the Gazelle in DCS.

 

 

That is not really true. 

 

First of all, you need to see the difference of a helicopter using a stabilisation and augmentation system with attitude holding mode and simple helicopters without this. A Uh60 have a stabilisation augmentation system with attutide hold( I think its called Flight Path Stabilization in the UH60). 

I fly the NH90 with Fly By wire wich also use attitude mode as the main mode. For these helicopters there is a synthetic way to make the stick act like ”release stick t centre = roll back to wings level . To keep a turn, keep the stick displaced.

 

This is not how ”simple” helicopters without a stabilisation augmentation system that use attitude mode work. For a simple helo, or a helo with a simple stabilisation system, the stick will ac like a aeroplane stick. Centered stick = no roll input.  (The centre change with speed and power setting so it is not always at the same position). To make a left turn, displace the stick to the left to get the desired roll rate and when the desired bank angle is reached return the stick to the centre position to stop the roling moment. 

In a turn, the basic helicopter actually can not ”know” it is in a turn or know that it is banking. The resulting G force is straight down through the floor so for the sake of the helo it could be doing a slight stick back nose up movement resulting in the same G-force. Becauser of the facts that the resulting G-force points straight down there is no need for any cyclic stick sidewards movement to keep the bank. In most cases the stick are very close to the same sidwards position as in forward straight and level flight. Helicopter with the ”West rotation”(anti clockwise seen from above) will most often describe a movement with the cyclic that is to more to the left when speeds increase from hover, and then the left reduces with incresing speed.

 

Ramsay is right about the sidewards flight, cyclic will act in sidewards flight as in forward flight. The faster the sidewards flight the more you need to displace the stick to that side. 

 

For the SA342, I have never flown it and I do not have the module but as a basic helicopter it should act as the simple helicopter above.

If it is equipped with an autopilot or sas system, it could behave like the description avobe similar to the att mode but only when the autopilot is engaged.

[T.M HOTAS Warthog Stick & Throttle + T.Flight pedals, Varjo Aero, HP Reverb pro, Pimax 8KX] 🙂

[DCS Mirage 2K; Huey; Spitfire Mk IX, AJS 37, F-14, F-18, FC3, A-10 Warthog II and a few more ]

i9 13900KF@5.8/32Gb DDR5@6400/ Gigabyte Gaming OC RTX4090, ASUS STRIX Z790-F , 2Tb m2 NVMe

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/19/2021 at 8:13 PM, RealDCSpilot said:

To make it simple, cyclic input does not result in roll rate in a helicopter.

Yes, in all basic simple helicopters(without a stab system), it does.

 

Heres a short explanation by R.W Prouty, a well known helicopter aerodynamics expert whom has written quite a few books on the subject:

https://flightsafety.org/hs/hs_may-jun89.pdf

 

Currently fly NH90, since 2013

Before:

AS332M1  2008-2015

MBB BO105 1997-2008

B206 1996-2001

Schweizer 300 1996-1999 

And some B206 Jet+ Long ranger, B412, B204 Huey.

(And planks before that)

 

The Bo105 is extreme on the cyclic positions and the secondary effects.

At low speed, more or less all helos have the cyclic displaced to the left or right depending on the rotor turning direction.

The Bo105 will have the stick very far to the left if in a steady bank to the right at low speeds. Between, say 20 and 50-60knots this is extreme and if you do a steeper bank to the right at low speeds you might first be very much to the left with the stick with not much margin to the cyclic stop and you might hit the left stop while still having a quite moderate roll rate. We had one Bo105 with an inexperience pilot that tried a step bank at low speed, also turning into the tailwind. Wasnt able to recover and crashed. This stick displacement also is vaslid at higer speeds but not that much but the reason for it, dissymetry of lift, makes rolling to the left very slow compared to rolling to the right.


Edited by Gunnars Driver

[T.M HOTAS Warthog Stick & Throttle + T.Flight pedals, Varjo Aero, HP Reverb pro, Pimax 8KX] 🙂

[DCS Mirage 2K; Huey; Spitfire Mk IX, AJS 37, F-14, F-18, FC3, A-10 Warthog II and a few more ]

i9 13900KF@5.8/32Gb DDR5@6400/ Gigabyte Gaming OC RTX4090, ASUS STRIX Z790-F , 2Tb m2 NVMe

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Gunnars Driver said:

The Bo105 is extreme on the cyclic positions and the secondary effects.

At low speed, more or less all helos have the cyclic displaced to the left or right depending on the rotor turning direction.

The Bo105 will have the stick very far to the left if in a steady bank to the right at low speeds. Between, say 20 and 50-60knots this is extreme and if you do a steeper bank to the right at low speeds you might first be very much to the left with the stick with not much margin to the cyclic stop and you might hit the left stop while still having a quite moderate roll rate. We had one Bo105 with an inexperience pilot that tried a step bank at low speed, also turning into the tailwind. Wasnt able to recover and crashed. This stick displacement also is vaslid at higer speeds but not that much but the reason for it, dissymetry of lift, makes rolling to the left very slow compared to rolling to the right.

 

That is what we have been saying....

When you roll to right and you have banking to right, you can not keep cyclic centered because the helicopter starts rolling more and more to right by forces. That is why you need to start applying a left cyclic to keep helicopter from flipping over to right by increasing forces.

 

You have the cyclic at the full left, limited to maximum scale. (0-100% scale the 50% is center, so you are at 0% at that moment).

If the roll continues to right, you have nothing to do as the cyclic is already maxed to left, and you will flip over.

 

In gazelle you turn cyclic to right (ie. 55%) to start right bank.  Then you return it to center (50%) to maintain right bank. There are no forces to flip gazelle around to right. When you want out of right bank, you just apply left cyclic (45%) to roll left and when you are in level you return cyclic to center (50%).

 

This with all augmentation systems disabled...

 

If you have sidewind, example blowing from the right, you should be required to apply right cyclic (into the wind) as otherwise wind will roll you over to left. But in gazelle the helicopter stays in level and it will only start to move (slip/slide) to left without any rolling. You don't need to apply cyclic to stay in level.

 

This with all stabilization systems disabled....

 

With gazelle you never run out of the cyclic authority. You fly with cyclic centered. You don't need to use cyclic or pedals to fly with just the collective. You don't need to touch cyclic or collective to fly with just pedals. 

And you don't need to touch collective or pedals to just fly with cyclic.

 

Gazelle flies like a airplane with all stabilization/augmentation systems disabled. If you don't apply anything (keep centered), it will go straight and level.

 

With other helicopters you need to use all controls all the time to compensate each control changes in advance.

 

  • Like 2

i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S.

i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Fri13 said:

 

That is what we have been saying....

When you roll to right and you have banking to right, you can not keep cyclic centered because the helicopter starts rolling more and more to right by forces. That is why you need to start applying a left cyclic to keep helicopter from flipping over to right by increasing forces.

 

You have the cyclic at the full left, limited to maximum scale. (0-100% scale the 50% is center, so you are at 0% at that moment).

If the roll continues to right, you have nothing to do as the cyclic is already maxed to left, and you will flip over.

 

In gazelle you turn cyclic to right (ie. 55%) to start right bank.  Then you return it to center (50%) to maintain right bank. There are no forces to flip gazelle around to right. When you want out of right bank, you just apply left cyclic (45%) to roll left and when you are in level you return cyclic to center (50%).

 

This with all augmentation systems disabled...

 

If you have sidewind, example blowing from the right, you should be required to apply right cyclic (into the wind) as otherwise wind will roll you over to left. But in gazelle the helicopter stays in level and it will only start to move (slip/slide) to left without any rolling. You don't need to apply cyclic to stay in level.

 

This with all stabilization systems disabled....

 

With gazelle you never run out of the cyclic authority. You fly with cyclic centered. You don't need to use cyclic or pedals to fly with just the collective. You don't need to touch cyclic or collective to fly with just pedals. 

And you don't need to touch collective or pedals to just fly with cyclic.

 

Gazelle flies like a airplane with all stabilization/augmentation systems disabled. If you don't apply anything (keep centered), it will go straight and level.

 

With other helicopters you need to use all controls all the time to compensate each control changes in advance.

 

 

When we say ”centered” we do not mean the exact 50% value. Centered is the position that at the moment do not cause any rolling moment when we refer to the sidewards position. It changes depending on very many factors, as can be seen in the link to R.W Proutys information. The final position for a steady turn depends on a lot of factors and in some helicopters you still have a slight offset to the left or the right depending on for example the coning angle of the rotor disc, the postition of the tail rotor(mainly how high it is mounted also have and impact on this as a low tail rotor cause a rolling moment on the helo). 

Increasing the collective will cause a rolling moment that will need to be corrected for, to keep the desired bank. 

Centered stick = the (varying) postition that impose no rolling moment = no roll rate on the helo. 

 

Also, keeping the bank in a helicopter without a stab system is not keeping the stick in one exact position as helicopters are statically unstable and dynamically stable. You need to correct the position any time as any disturbance, how small it even is, causes the actuall cyclic position to be ”not centered”.

 

Normally you will newer be out of cyclic response. You will newer ”flip over”. That will not happen, ever, as you describe it.

 All singe rotor helos is affected by rotor turning direction and have one rolling direction(Left or Right) where the response is lower. For the BO105, at speeds between 20-50-60kt the left turn response is lower than at other speeds, perhaps lowest at about 40kt or so. Left stick will always cause a left rolling moment but at the 20-60kt the roilling respons is slower than the BO105 normally have, and putting yourself into a steep right turn at low speed an dlow altitude can be dangerous as the time needed to roll back to upright will be much longer than it normally is. But remember, left stick always will cause left roll. No flip upside down.

 

The BO105 getting out of margins for left cyclic is unique, perhaps the Lynx behave the same as it also has a rigid rotor system.  

For the BO105, the secondary effects of the collective and cyclic is VERY strong and if you are in a right turn and reach the left stop you just need to lower the collective. The secondary effect from lowering the collective is a (among other effects) clear left rolling moment, so if you lower the collective you will incriease the left rolling rate. Quite much if you lower the collective much. 

 

I would say that if you fly the real sa3412/342m and for example increase collective you will need to move the cyclic forward if you want to keep the attitude the same. If not moving the cyclic forward, the nose will come up. Your description of the ”only use collective” or ”only use cyclic” do not match real helos without sas-systems with attitude mode.  This is due to aerodynamic effects that no helicopter can escape.  Increasing collective with forward speed will increase the blade angle by the same amount on all blades. When the blade is moving forward(left side on the as341/342 i think), a small change in the blade angle will cause a big change in lift and the backwards blade will get a lower change in lift(this is due to the dissymetry of lift) and the gyroscopic precession makes the increased lift from the forwards moving blade act in front of the helo, and the rear moving blade act over the tail. As the lift increases more in fron then in the bakc there will be a pitch up moment that will raise the nose. 

The superpuma (I got some 2K h in it) has a advanced mechanichal mixer that actually moves the cyclic forward when the collective is raised, to counteract the secondary effects. It actually has that advanced mixer despite having an AP(SAS system) with attitude hold function.    

 

As form the side wind, you are not correct if I understand that you mean side wind in forward flight in a real helicopter. Side wind do not effect the helo behaviour in the air as the helo moves straight though the air(we are speaking ball centered flight). So the helo flies straight though the air and experience the air coming from exactly straight ahead. As we fly in the air mass, we will drift to the left or right if having side wind from the left or right. 

This means the turning will be 100% as if flying in no wind when it comes to the stick positions.

[T.M HOTAS Warthog Stick & Throttle + T.Flight pedals, Varjo Aero, HP Reverb pro, Pimax 8KX] 🙂

[DCS Mirage 2K; Huey; Spitfire Mk IX, AJS 37, F-14, F-18, FC3, A-10 Warthog II and a few more ]

i9 13900KF@5.8/32Gb DDR5@6400/ Gigabyte Gaming OC RTX4090, ASUS STRIX Z790-F , 2Tb m2 NVMe

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Gunnars Driver said:

When we say ”centered” we do not mean the exact 50% value.

 

Just like the US Army Air Mobility Research And Development Laboratory documentation about the Gazelle flight controls position, the 50% literally means center. 

X movement 0-100% scale the 50% means cyclic is at the center.

Y movement 0-100% scale the 50% means cyclic is at the center.

Collective 0-100% means collective max movement range from bottom at 0% and maximum up as 100%.

Pedals are at 50% at center, 0% and 100% being corresponding full left and right. 

 

Quote

Centered is the position that at the moment do not cause any rolling moment when we refer to the sidewards position.

 

In the documentation the Center means physically center cyclic. Cyclic is not moved in any direction more than others. If you need to move cyclic to one direction to maintain hover or level flight, then it is off from center position (50%) and is measured in physical position for the status of flight.

 

Gazelle flight controls positions US Army Laboratory.jpg

 

 

Quote

Also, keeping the bank in a helicopter without a stab system is not keeping the stick in one exact position as helicopters are statically unstable and dynamically stable. You need to correct the position any time as any disturbance, how small it even is, causes the actuall cyclic position to be ”not centered”.

 

That is in reality, but that is not so in the Gazelle. And that is the problem.

You will maintain cyclic at the center position regardless your speed, pedals etc. 

You are not required to correct controls positions to maintain attitude. 

 

 

 

Quote

Normally you will newer be out of cyclic response. You will newer ”flip over”. That will not happen, ever, as you describe it.

 

As you quoted the book, it happened. The pilot went to too high right bank and he had cyclic in left stop and there was no more any authority in his cyclic to stop helicopter from rolling to right. Event lead to crash. 

 

This is same thing in many other helicopter cases, especially when higher winds come to play. You need to plan carefully your approach and which side you will turn as you do not have same turning capabilities to both sides (just like as your quoted book text says, Bo-105 has slow roll to the left, while faster roll authority to right. And if you come to turn to the left in the wind, you can find yourself that you have no authority to overcome the wind with cyclic etc).

 

Quote

The BO105 getting out of margins for left cyclic is unique, perhaps the Lynx behave the same as it also has a rigid rotor system.  

For the BO105, the secondary effects of the collective and cyclic is VERY strong and if you are in a right turn and reach the left stop you just need to lower the collective.

 

What is not required in the Gazelle either.... You have full authority to fly almost in any wind conditions (I have tested up to 60 meters per second and no effect to Gazelle) 

 

Quote

I would say that if you fly the real sa3412/342m and for example increase collective you will need to move the cyclic forward if you want to keep the attitude the same. If not moving the cyclic forward, the nose will come up.

 

Yes it would take nose up.

 

Quote

Your description of the ”only use collective” or ”only use cyclic” do not match real helos without sas-systems with attitude mode.  This is due to aerodynamic effects that no helicopter can escape.

 

But the DCS: Gazelle does... 

 

Quote

The superpuma (I got some 2K h in it) has a advanced mechanichal mixer that actually moves the cyclic forward when the collective is raised, to counteract the secondary effects. It actually has that advanced mixer despite having an AP(SAS system) with attitude hold function.

 

Our DCS Gazelle doesn't have that.

 

Here is only collective and pedals being used.

First only the collective ramping up and down as maximum. 

Then only pedals used by going full left and full right.

Maximum input is given with those two.

And neither one is used simultaneously, but only one control at the time (first just collective, then only the pedals). 

 

The cyclic is not used at all. It is always centered (50%)

 

 

People here claims that is a fully proper helicopter flight modeling and behavior. 

 

Quote

As form the side wind, you are not correct if I understand that you mean side wind in forward flight in a real helicopter.

 

Not in forward flight but in hover etc. The Gazelle in DCS is not affected by the wind. It will only start to move you laterally to wind direction but it does not matter are you in which way or what attitude as the wind has no other effect than just "sliding you with it". 

 

Quote

Side wind do not effect the helo behaviour in the air as the helo moves straight though the air(we are speaking ball centered flight). So the helo flies straight though the air and experience the air coming from exactly straight ahead. As we fly in the air mass, we will drift to the left or right if having side wind from the left or right. 

This means the turning will be 100% as if flying in no wind when it comes to the stick positions.

 

The wind strength and direction matters for the helicopter attitude, cyclic and all. There are limits for max wind where helicopter is allowed to fly. Example for the Mi-8 IIRC it was about a 16 meters per second. 

 

Like the Mi-8MTV2 manual: 

 

Page 39: "Main rotor thrust varies strongly depending on atmospheric conditions: free air temperature (FAT), wind speed and direction, and barometric pressure at the altitude of the airfield. This variability necessitates performing a hover safety check prior to initiating any takeoff to ensure safe flight operations."

 

Page 228: "Any headwind increases maximum takeoff weight: +200 kg at 5 m/s; +1200 kg at 10 m/s. Crosswind up to 5 m/s reduces performance by affecting the tail rotor and increasing engine power requirements. Reduce maximum takeoff weight by 200 kg in the presence of a crosswind of up to 5 m/s. At greater crosswind speeds, translational lift effects become more dominant. Performance reduction in tailwind conditions (blowback of hot exhaust gases into the exhaust system) is not modeled in the simulation. When calculating wind corrections for maximum hover weight, consider that wind speed and direction may vary during takeoff/landing. Assume the lowest maximum hover weight corresponding with possible wind variance. If wind conditions cannot be determined, assume poor hover conditions of 4-6 m/s tailwind."

 

Page 268: "E. Wind speed during taxi must not exceed 15 m/s. In crosswind conditions, the helicopter tends to turn into the wind. Correct any uncommanded turning tendency with slight opposite pedal and any uncommanded roll with slight opposite cyclic."

 

Page 288: "Vertical takeoff and landing on an incline in wind speeds up to 5 m/s are permissible from any wind heading. In wind conditions above 5 m/s, vertical takeoff and landing on an incline is permissible only into the wind and within above grade limitation guidelines. Always attempt to perform takeoff and landing from an incline in either a nose or right side up incline position. A nose up incline position is best."

 

With a 16 m/s wind the Gazelle flies without any challenges any way wanted.

When put a maximum 50 m/s at 10 m that makes 105 m/s wind at 500 m, then flying Mi-8 is crazy as you can only keep nose into wind, but you can fly like flying at high speed (180-250 km/h). 

With Gazelle things gets interesting as you can not turn into the wind. The tail is forcing you to fly within the wind. It is challenging to get Gazelle turn in the wind as you need to nose up and pull fancy vertical roll to get nose into wind and even then it will slip 180 degree very quickly as tail has zero authority to keep nose into the wind. So it is like flying a 250 km/h backwards without any problems.

 

The Gazelle just does not follow real Gazelle flight controls, real helicopters control inputs requirements and it is even flying backward faster than other helicopter barely can forward.

 

Gazelle Flight Controls max wind.miz

 

 

Yes that mission is ridiculous with 50-106 m/s wind but it presents very well one of the flaws in Gazelle that I didn't realize, that its tail rotor effect for wind is inverted. You are headed to North, and the wind is blowing from the North (so you are flying into the wind). And Mi-8 will not have anti-torque rotor authority to turn within the wind (turn to South) as wind is blowing way too hard. But in Gazelle it is opposite, you have no authority to keep heading to North but you will flip heading to South. And you can apply full pedals to get Gazelle to point West or East through the South, but you can not turn Gazelle into the wind. 

 

 

 


Edited by Fri13
Added mission file
  • Like 1

i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S.

i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This video has probably been posted before, but since the discussion is about cyclic movement, I think it fits in quite nicely:

 

 

To sum up the essential part here: Cyclic inputs are simulated wrong in the DCS Gazelle.

 

Disclaimer:

Yes, you can still have fun with the Gazelle though, and I'm happy that we have it in DCS. It will be even better when this gets corrected.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Pilot Ike said:

To sum up the essential part here: Cyclic inputs are simulated wrong in the DCS Gazelle.

 

All controls are modeled wrong and not just cyclic, and then there are other subjects like the 20 mm cannon has no recoil, the missiles has no recoil, the tail wind direction as I mentioned above post (in the end) is wrong (Gazelle flies within wind and can't turn into the wind as it has no authority, the wind pulls the tail instead pushes it) and various other from engine power to mass dynamics etc. 

 

Quote

Disclaimer:

Yes, you can still have fun with the Gazelle though, and I'm happy that we have it in DCS. It will be even better when this gets corrected.

 

Yes, it is the smallest one we have and only one with the European idea of the anti-tank helicopters with just few ATGM. I am waiting the Bo 105 PAH-1 with its six HOT missiles instead just four. Even when the Bo 105 was just a temporal helicopter to fill a waiting time to get a proper combat helicopter out (Eurocopter Tiger) and it is not really different from the Gazelle, it still be something unique. 

As the Gazelle and Bo are both underdogs. No armor, no good weapons, just small and agile and that is it. They never really developed anything like example Kiowa did with its mast mounted sight for laser designation, hellfires, rockets, good MG and doctrinal way to fly without doors and shoot from there etc. 

 

 


Edited by Fri13

i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S.

i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Gunnars Driver said:

Yes, in all basic simple helicopters(without a stab system), it does.

This is not what i meant. After startup, go into hover and try to hover to the left/right - any direction... The smallest cyclic input result is a linear continous roll, this is just as wrong as it could be for a Gazelle type of helicopter.

i9 13900K @5.5GHz, Z790 Gigabyte Aorus Master, RTX4090 Waterforce, 64 GB DDR5 @5600, Pico 4, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with Rhino FFB base made by VPforce, DCS: all modules

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...