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Number of Weapons on Pylons


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Some of the newest versions are different - but the Cold War era ones (like we are getting) have a maximum of of eight Shturm/Ataka using all four outer pylons. Earlier variants (Mi-24D) could only carry pairs of 9M17 missiles on the outermost hard-points.

 

If you want 12 to 16 anti-tank missiles you'll need to go with the AH-64 or Ka-50. Interestingly though, these attack helicopters often flew in practice with less than the maximum number of anti-tank missiles. I think the feature I most anticipated for Black Shark III was the possibility of only carrying four anti-tank missiles... I've often found twelve to excessive, so the options for four or eight missiles seemed like a nice way to reduce weight and improve performance. Unfortunately, work on that module is suspended for the moment.

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I hope that carrying extra "Ammo" in the crew compartment will be a thing. You can easily carry a LOT of Shturms in there. They are really light. 

So 8 on the Pylons, and who knows how many more in the crew compartment. 

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Land behind a hilltop in a middle of a combat sortie and reload them xD
Would be neat, but i highly doubt we'll see anything like that in DCS

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6 minutes ago, BonerCat said:

Land behind a hilltop in a middle of a combat sortie and reload them xD
Would be neat, but i highly doubt we'll see anything like that in DCS


Why not? Even if the developers don't include it in the module, since the helicopter will be able to carry 4 troops, I think it will be a relatively simple matter to script it into the standard Multiplayer sling-load script. (The one used to great effect by the Huey and Mi-8 choppers on most multiplayer servers)

And it really "was" a thing in real life. Crews did hold extra ammo in there, since the choppers were rarely (if ever) used for special ops insertions. 


Edited by Lurker
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12 minutes ago, Lucas_From_Hell said:

There's scant evidence of that being done in real life outside English-language sources. Might be a good idea to pop into the Russian side of the forums and ask about it.

 

Really, this wasn't done at all? I swear I saw it in Wings of Russia. A russian documentary about Mi24 and Mi8 helicopters. I'll have a dig around if I can find sources on it. But it should be possible to do, unless the pilots did not have the tools or the knowhow to rearm their helicopter and relied only on the ground crew. 


Edited by Lurker
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I read the Mi-24 section of the book and couldn't find mentions of that in the Afghanistan entry. Perhaps it's a mistranslation of its ability to forward-deploy - the Mi-24 can indeed conduct long-term deployments to forward bases with only three people (commander, pilot-operator and mechanic), with all of them having assigned roles in the maintenance and rearming of the helicopter. A squadron or detachment flying to a forward base could indeed carry supplies, among which ammunition, on their way there. But this was not a practice in the middle of a single combat sortie.

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4 minutes ago, Lucas_From_Hell said:

I read the Mi-24 section of the book and couldn't find mentions of that in the Afghanistan entry. Perhaps it's a mistranslation of its ability to forward-deploy - the Mi-24 can indeed conduct long-term deployments to forward bases with only three people (commander, pilot-operator and mechanic), with all of them having assigned roles in the maintenance and rearming of the helicopter. A squadron or detachment flying to a forward base could indeed carry supplies, among which ammunition, on their way there. But this was not a practice in the middle of a single combat sortie.

Yes, I'm pretty sure you're right.

I'm not going to lie, I'm getting tired of seeing this myth every time the Hind is mentioned... carrying armaments and parts to an FOB is realistic, but extra ammo during a single sortie, in a hot and high environment where helos often flew with a reduced armament load? Please...

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3 minutes ago, hisothiro said:

Yes, I'm pretty sure you're right.

I'm not going to lie, I'm getting tired of seeing this myth every time the Hind is mentioned... carrying armaments and parts to an FOB is realistic, but extra ammo during a single sortie, in a hot and high environment where helos often flew with a reduced armament load? Please...

 

With two crew and without the Shturm... the Mi-24 could carry reloads for all four UB32 pods and still carry 92% of its fuel at MTOW. That would drop to 80-85% with a third crew-member to reload, however only carrying reloads for two pods would easily allow excess power (and still increases the firepower on the sortie by one and a half times). Of course, the helicopter idling while reloading is burning fuel - so it'd be interesting to see how much fuel the Mi-24 goes through during fifteen minutes 'on the tarmac'.

 

Also, as I mentioned earlier - parts of Afghanistan are 600m ASL, and Afghanistan can go below zero during the day in winter (and colder than minus 20 at night), so it also isn't all hot and high. There would be plenty of situations where an Mi-24 could carry a couple of pods worth of reloads and also have plenty of fuel and power to spare.

 

So I don't think the argument against this should be 'hot and high' or that the Mi-24 can't lift enough. The more central argument is - how does one provide security for the helicopter? How much time is saved compared to flying back to the airfield?

 

I suspect the truth may actually be something in between - that in Afghanistan some Mi-24 ferried reloads to forward rearming points at locations controlled by ground forces. This then allowed Mi-24 to land and reload in an emergency without having to fly back to the airfield. Basically self-deploying reloads to a forward re-arming point controlled by friendly forces.

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I think it is also worth noting that we are risking stereotyping the Mi-24 a bit. Yes, it couldn't deploy special forces at a useful distance and then support them as had originally been hoped (under the airborne IFV/BMP concept). It had to choose between range, weapon load, and cargo (the latter being something it wasn't very good at).

 

I do think there are situations where the VDV might have used Mi-24 to help redeploy troops faster in an emergency. I can also see situations where one Mi-24 (largely stripped of weapons) might evacuate some troops while armed Mi-24 protected it. But it wasn't suited to these roles.

 

However, if one looks at the Ah-1... near its maximum range its weapon load decreases (and becomes more equivalent to an Oh-58... which is surprisingly fuel efficient and long ranged). It is hard to get both payload and range out of a helicopter.

 

So the Mi-24 never delivered on the original paper vision that the Generals wanted (but was beyond the technology of its time)... it doesn't mean that it can't lift things. Similarly, just because the Mi-24 has wings which give it a lot of excess lift at cruise but slightly decrease lift in a hover, doesn't mean it is unable to hover (as some people have claimed)... it just means it is very good at cruising.

 

P.S. With regard to the earlier discussion - it is also worth remembering that rockets are quite a bit lighter than infantry.

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1 minute ago, Avimimus said:

 I suspect the truth may actually be something in between - that in Afghanistan some Mi-24 ferried reloads to forward rearming points at locations controlled by ground forces. This then allowed Mi-24 to land and reload in an emergency without having to fly back to the airfield. Basically self-deploying reloads to a forward re-arming point controlled by friendly forces.

This sounds absolutely reasonable. My main issue with this myth is that players are grasping at straws (a potentially mistranslated anecdote) to justify a mechanic that will make the Hind more "effective" in the game environment. If you want more ammo or an FOB, there are ways to do that in game already (there's even an "Unlimited Ammo" checkbox if you want 😉), but mental gymnastics to justify something as realistic? 

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Just now, hisothiro said:

This sounds absolutely reasonable. My main issue with this myth is that players are grasping at straws (a potentially mistranslated anecdote) to justify a mechanic that will make the Hind more "effective" in the game environment. If you want more ammo or an FOB, there are ways to do that in game already (there's even an "Unlimited Ammo" checkbox if you want 😉), but mental gymnastics to justify something as realistic? 

 

Thanks! I'm actually a bit moved by your reasonable response. It feels rare to be called reasonable these days, so I'm flattered. 🙂

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I always thought - i have no prove for this! - that the "in combat" reload would be more a thing for the shturm/ataka atgm. In one of the YT videos they showed that these atgm are attached to the MI-24 via a one or two lever(can't remember) quick connection. So basically operate the lever(s) - off goes the empty tube - on goes the new tube - operate lever(s) - done. How practically this is in RL or if this was only tested and then abandoned? I don't know.

 

In the end i'm fine with reloading/refueling at a FARP.

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Kind-of like the rapid reload (assisted by ground vehicles) of the Bo-105 while on the defensive? Interesting. Note that, if I recall correctly, the missile weighs more in the tube - so something like 45kg... which means probably only two-and-a-half missiles for the weight of reloading a rocket pod. It does sound possible though - even if I've never heard any evidence of it occurring to anyone (prior to you anyway)!


Edited by Avimimus
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One other thing to consider. If something has never been done before, historically I mean, but the capability to actually do it exists and is relatively simple to do. Would that be grounds to include it or exclude it from the sim? 

 

Say you sent a pair of Mi-8s (carrying troops and supplies) and a pair of Mi-24s (carrying extra ammunition) for escort and to establish a forward operating base close to the enemy front line somewhere. Would it really be so far-fetched to assume that while the troops were securing and establishing that position the Mi-24s could engage the enemy and then come back to re-arm at that forward operating base? 


Edited by Lurker
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That is just a normal FARP, being quickly established with additional helicopters. The other is a helicopter landing in the middle of - hopefully safe - nowhere and getting reloaded by its own crew without any protection. The former is reasonable, the later sounds like really bad idea.

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In this video it looks like they were resupplying these helicopters in the middle of nowhere. The vehicles don't seem to tankers.

My guess is that they were either loading/unloading troops or rockets. But who knows?

 

But I guess it is kind of a rare occurrence and not really necessary in DCS. But still cool if possible.

 

EDIT: actually I just listened to the audio for the first time ^^ So it seems the Hind was shot down and the pilots were being rescued. So no resupply.

 

 


Edited by Kerberos
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1 hour ago, SuumCuique said:

That is just a normal FARP, being quickly established with additional helicopters. The other is a helicopter landing in the middle of - hopefully safe - nowhere and getting reloaded by its own crew without any protection. The former is reasonable, the later sounds like really bad idea.

 

Whether it's a bad idea, or done properly with support, doesn't matter. My question still remains the same. Should it be included in the sim if the capability to do so exists in real life? (Even though it was never used, or very rarely used)

 

 


Edited by Lurker
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14 hours ago, Avimimus said:

Kind-of like the rapid reload (assisted by ground vehicles) of the Bo-105 while on the defensive? Interesting. Note that, if I recall correctly, the missile weighs more in the tube - so something like 45kg... which means probably only two-and-a-half missiles for the weight of reloading a rocket pod. It does sound possible though - even if I've never heard any evidence of it occurring to anyone (prior to you anyway)!

 

Atleast thats how i thought it would work, like i said i have no picture/video/book prove for that.

 

In the Mi-24 pre-order trailer you can see the mechanism.

1 - rotate lever

2 - tube moves a little forward

3 - up and off it goes

Repeat in reverse order for new tube. 😉

1.jpg

 


Edited by unknown
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The issue with doing this in the field is that you need two people to do that. That means both crewmembers need to leave the helicopter. Since there's nobody in the cockpit, you have to shut it off. The end-result of that is you have two officers standing outside in the open with no armour or any protection worth naming, and a helicopter with the engines off. They're prime targets for an ambush. Even if they don't, if they run into any technical trouble, it could leave them stranded there.

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Late to this discussion.  I don't have knowledge first hand on the hinds but I don't doubt in field rearm.  I say this because in at least two online interviews with Ah1 cobra pilots in Vietnam they mentioned during very hectic fighting (I think the two examples were hamburger hill and lam son). The crews had landed munitions at a prearranged spot nearer the fighting and would land and rearm themselves. 

This wasn't sop but it was done apparently

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My understanding, re Mi-24s in Afghanistan and "reloading from the cargo compartment".... There was no advantage to this idea. Operations were not so far from the airbases or forward operating bases to warrant the risk of landing, out of weaponry, shutting down, rearming by hand from the awkward cargo compartment by the pilots, then taking off with a view to returning too the fray. The safest place to land would undoubtedly be the airbase, which would be not too far a ride. Added to this, why add weight to further limit the performance already compromised by the terrain and meteorological conditions.

It just was not done, it is a myth, or conjecture.


Edited by molevitch
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