Carrier captain turning the carrier into the wind on takeoff/landing

[Ducksen]

When the time comes to launch or land, the carrier will jink into the wind and and get back on course when that is done.

Sit there and see the boat moving as you prep for takeoff would be something.

 

And yes, this is somewhat of a gimmick. Not important. Still, a whish is a whish.

[norman99]

This is not a gimmick. It is vital to carrier ops, and should be included at some point.

 

Whilst there are scripts and missions which use different methods to achieve turning into wind, they each have their problems. For example, MOOSE is one option, but as it includes its own ATC, this can conflict with the supercarrier ATC. Other scripts simply change the carrier direction when flight ops are detected, such as those in MBot's DCE missions. These however don't work with the super carrier CASE III recoveries because it uses aircraft distance and alt to detect flight ops, often too late, as the carrier changes directions after the initial marshal radial/final bearing call has already been issued.

 

What is actually needed is a robust, working system, included within the core supercarrier module. Not some 3rd part scripts to band aid over missing functionality. I understand the supercarrier is currently early access, but I would expect this functionality in the completed module.

[Sonoda Umi]

Plus, Aircraft Carrier as the centre of the strike group, when she changes course or speed, the AI Escort ships should keep up the formation. Escort ships have to manoeuvre simultaneously.

 

Edited April 11, 2021 by Sonoda Umi

[Aarnoman]

On 3/31/2021 at 11:27 PM, norman99 said:

This is not a gimmick. It is vital to carrier ops, and should be included at some point.

 

Whilst there are scripts and missions which use different methods to achieve turning into wind, they each have their problems. For example, MOOSE is one option, but as it includes its own ATC, this can conflict with the supercarrier ATC. Other scripts simply change the carrier direction when flight ops are detected, such as those in MBot's DCE missions. These however don't work with the super carrier CASE III recoveries because it uses aircraft distance and alt to detect flight ops, often too late, as the carrier changes directions after the initial marshal radial/final bearing call has already been issued.

 

What is actually needed is a robust, working system, included within the core supercarrier module. Not some 3rd part scripts to band aid over missing functionality. I understand the supercarrier is currently early access, but I would expect this functionality in the completed module.

Well said. Absolutely not a gimmick and essential for accurate carrier simulation. 

[Northstar98]

Absolutely - this is not just a gimmick, it is a pivotal step in aircraft carrier operations - fully with norman99 here.

Edited April 13, 2021 by Northstar98

[toni]

I think later on the Command Bridge should be modeled, and capability to walk in first person from one deck to another.

But if not, at least give us the chance of being able to move outside on the vulture row from PriFly station.

[BarTzi]

On 3/31/2021 at 1:27 PM, norman99 said:

This is not a gimmick. It is vital to carrier ops, and should be included at some point.

 

Whilst there are scripts and missions which use different methods to achieve turning into wind, they each have their problems. For example, MOOSE is one option, but as it includes its own ATC, this can conflict with the supercarrier ATC. Other scripts simply change the carrier direction when flight ops are detected, such as those in MBot's DCE missions. These however don't work with the super carrier CASE III recoveries because it uses aircraft distance and alt to detect flight ops, often too late, as the carrier changes directions after the initial marshal radial/final bearing call has already been issued.

 

What is actually needed is a robust, working system, included within the core supercarrier module. Not some 3rd part scripts to band aid over missing functionality. I understand the supercarrier is currently early access, but I would expect this functionality in the completed module.

Take a look at a class called NAVYGROUP (it's in moose). It will give you the ability to turn the carrier into the wind, and it has no ATC connected to it. 

However, I absolutely agree that turning into the wind (from XX:XX until YY:YY) should be integrated as a task in the mission editor. 

[norman99]

Thanks, I will. Cheers.

[Jagohu]

18 hours ago, BarTzi said:

Take a look at a class called NAVYGROUP (it's in moose). It will give you the ability to turn the carrier into the wind, and it has no ATC connected to it. 

However, I absolutely agree that turning into the wind (from XX:XX until YY:YY) should be integrated as a task in the mission editor. 

It's not as "simple" as it may seem. I have modelled the behavior for my single-player campaign in the PG, and there're a lot of things you need to consider, you can't just "say" now it should be turning into the wind. A few examples:
-what if the wind blows from the direction of the land?
-how close are we allowed to go to land?(especially to stay realistic)

-what if there're other objects ie. oil rigs in the way

-for how long does the carrier need to sail into the wind?

So you know this starts much earlier IRL than at the time of recovery - on blue water in the middle of the ocean it might work just to turn when it's needed, but in confined areas such as the Persian Gulf it takes a good bit of pre-planning. As I said it's not impossible, but it's cumbersome and yet there can be cases when "stupid" things happen. 

Testing something like this is very time-consuming too as you need to run missions for hours to see if the behavior is as expected at different spots.
Just my 2 cents.

[BarTzi]

12 hours ago, Jagohu said:

It's not as "simple" as it may seem. I have modelled the behavior for my single-player campaign in the PG, and there're a lot of things you need to consider, you can't just "say" now it should be turning into the wind. A few examples:
-what if the wind blows from the direction of the land?
-how close are we allowed to go to land?(especially to stay realistic)

-what if there're other objects ie. oil rigs in the way

-for how long does the carrier need to sail into the wind?

So you know this starts much earlier IRL than at the time of recovery - on blue water in the middle of the ocean it might work just to turn when it's needed, but in confined areas such as the Persian Gulf it takes a good bit of pre-planning. As I said it's not impossible, but it's cumbersome and yet there can be cases when "stupid" things happen. 

Testing something like this is very time-consuming too as you need to run missions for hours to see if the behavior is as expected at different spots.
Just my 2 cents.

-what if the wind blows from the direction of the land? - I don't see the issue. Place it somewhere that makes sense in the first place to avoid potential issues. 

-how close are we allowed to go to land?(especially to stay realistic) - That's a mission maker choice, not a game developer choise. (can also be added as an adjustable value for this specific task. When the task ends, the carrier should follow it's original path of waypoints in the mission editor). 

-what if there're other objects ie. oil rigs in the way - AI in the game itself should avoid collision, but this is yet again an issue of placing the carrier in a suitable place in the first place, aka a mission designer's choice.

-for how long does the carrier need to sail into the wind? This is a mission designer choice, again. Ideally, you should be able to select the start and end times for this task.

 

So you know this starts much earlier IRL than at the time of recovery - on blue water in the middle of the ocean it might work just to turn when it's needed, but in confined areas such as the Persian Gulf it takes a good bit of pre-planning. Which is why, in my opinion, it is the responsibility of the mission editor to make it happen.

 

I'm not saying this is an easy task. However, I do think it should be an option in DCS.

 

I can do all of the above with MOOSE, and even more (cyclic ops for example).

Edited April 16, 2021 by BarTzi

[Nealius]

On 4/11/2021 at 3:26 AM, Sonoda Umi said:

Plus, Aircraft Carrier as the centre of the strike group, when she changes course or speed, the AI Escort ships should keep up the formation. Escort ships have to manoeuvre simultaneously.

 

 

 

While true, other ships in a carrier group are typically miles away doing their own thing independent of the carrier. 

[Jackjack171]

On 5/8/2021 at 9:03 PM, Nealius said:

 

While true, other ships in a carrier group are typically miles away doing their own thing independent of the carrier. 

Very true! Just to piggyback IRL, the escorts are miles away. Sometimes you won't see them for days. And you never saw an LHA/LHD in close formation doing simultaneous Flight Operations. The DCS formations Photo Ops close!

[Sonoda Umi]

18 hours ago, Jackjack171 said:

Very true! Just to piggyback IRL, the escorts are miles away. Sometimes you won't see them for days. And you never saw an LHA/LHD in close formation doing simultaneous Flight Operations. The DCS formations Photo Ops close!

Although they have distances, the Carrier cannot go too far away from escorts. That is to say, escorts need follow the Carrier even though they not always keep simultaneous formation.

[Jackjack171]

On 5/24/2021 at 6:50 AM, Sonoda Umi said:

Although they have distances, the Carrier cannot go too far away from escorts. That is to say, escorts need follow the Carrier even though they not always keep simultaneous formation.

I'm not sure what you are saying. My apologies. I do not know the exact distances, I only speak from experience. IRL, the CDC can see them but up on the flight deck, sometimes you saw the escorts, sometimes not. They are not a softball's throw away from each other. It is really hazy in the NAG sometimes so that's a factor. There is limited sea space but you wouldn't see them as close as you do in DCS.

[Sonoda Umi]

13 hours ago, Jackjack171 said:

I'm not sure what you are saying. My apologies. I do not know the exact distances, I only speak from experience. IRL, the CDC can see them but up on the flight deck, sometimes you saw the escorts, sometimes not. They are not a softball's throw away from each other. It is really hazy in the NAG sometimes so that's a factor. There is limited sea space but you wouldn't see them as close as you do in DCS.

Sorry for my unclear expression. I meant that escorts needn't keep so close to the Carrier, but they should follow her if she gose too far. 

[EntropySG]

I don't know if that is of any help to you, but in case it is, you're welcome to use this very basic code to have an option to open a recovery window and turn the carrier into the wind for start/recovery. It's based on the MOOSE class NAVYGROUP, which was created by a very talented member of the Moose community, Funkyfranky.

 

This is merely a teaser, with very basic functionality. The real thing is the MOOSE class AIRBOSS (also written by Funkyfranky), if you google that you will get to a very well documented page on the MOOSE wiki showing you how to set it all up, its not as hard as it first looks, check it out!. The AIRBOSS is perfect for multiplayer squadrons, as it will allow you to maintain a greeny board and even stack incoming flights in the port hold etc etc etc. 

 

 But for the very basic functionality, to get started, you can do this:

 

1. in your mission, create a mission start trigger and load MOOSE.lua (this should be done at the very first step, and without it, subsequent moose scripts cannot work). I have attached the MOOSE.lua to this post as a zip file due to the 5MB file size limit on the ED forum, please unzip first!Moose.zip

 

2. modify the NAVYGROUP_basic.lua with a text editor, you only need to do a few small changes in lines 1-7. make sure you enter the names exactly as they are in the mission editor or the script wont work.NAVYGROUP basic.lua

 

3. load your modified NAVYGROUPS_basic.lua script as a once trigger. Make sure you load this AFTER moose.lua was loaded, else it can't work. 

 

4. now place your carrier, no need to set tacan/ICLS via the mission editor, this is set via the script. Give it 3 waypoints and draw a box with them, the carrier group will steam along those waypoints, no need to close the box, it will steam to the initial waypoint once it reaches the last waypoint.

 

For reference, I have attached a simple mission file navygroups_simple.miz

 

((in case you wonder why the tacan and ICLS channels are repeatedly re-created via the script, this we had implemented a while ago, as for some reason the carriers stopped transmitting after a while, not sure if that bug was solved on ED's side since then))

[Jackjack171]

6 hours ago, Sonoda Umi said:

Sorry for my unclear expression. I meant that escorts needn't keep so close to the Carrier, but they should follow her if she gose too far. 

Thank you for clarifying and you are correct.

[lharv71]

Some VERY interesting conversations, I would like to add some answers and clarification:

1. Strike Group formations and distances - (see the diagram below) the only ship that is within visible distance (during the day) is the Plane Guard ship which sets up 1.5 kms off or the port quarter of the carrier (draw a line 45 degrees from BRC (base recovery course) at the stern of the ship out to the left 1.5 kms. The role of the plane guard is a rescue ship for downed pilots during recovery, act as a decoy for incoming missiles, and works well as a "turning point" for aircraft. I have great videos during the Persian Gulf War as we did ALOT of plane guard. The tanker (support ship) will be approx. 20 - 30 miles away and usually a stern, then you have "Advanced Screen" for missile defence at 50 - 60 kms, Anti-submarine helos at 100 kms, 24 hr CAPs at approx 120 kms from the Carrier then way out at approx. 150 kms there will be an LA Fast Attack submarine.

2. There is a really good description of CYCLIC OPS (flight ops) I will attach, it describes times etc.

I hope the gives some insight into this topic, and I agree the more realistic the better: try the OPS NavyGroup it is great with moose.

Cheers!

Cyclic_Ops_V1_Final.docx

[Yoda967]

BLUF (Bottom Line Up Front): Maneuvering the carrier and her escorts is best left to the mission creator, who won't go far wrong if he or she just plots the carrier's course in the ME to within twenty degrees of the wind and sets the speed so that the apparent winds are in the neighborhood of 25 knots.

My first ship was USS JOHN F KENNEDY (CV 67). Jagohu's questions are spot on. "Turning into the wind" is a dynamic process and requires a bridge watch team that is on the ball throughout the evolution. Launch and recovery winds are not fixed directly into the wind, but their own envelopes (minimum/maximum speed and a range of headings several degrees to port and starboard of the wind's true direction). There is a book on the bridge that contains "wind roses" that help the bridge watch team determine the best course and speed for flight operations; in light winds, it may be possible to launch and recover without turning into the wind. I don't recall conducting flight ops within sight of land, ever. From a ship-driver's perspective, the closer you get to shoal water (water too shallow for the ship to operate), the fewer options you have if anything goes wrong. 

I spent a tour at sea aboard USS SAVANNAH (AOR 4), including an Indian Ocean deployment with a carrier. Rarely did we steam along with the carrier; if we weren't conducting VERTREP or UNREP, we were over the horizon, going to or coming from a resupply port. Outside of the occasional photo op, I don't recall ever steaming in the carrier screen.

Years later, I was a chief on an Aegis cruiser. Our role in the carrier screen was typically what we called "CV shotgun," where we'd remain about 3/4 mile astern and a bit to starboard of the carrier's centerline. In that position we could serve as plane guard and effectively defend the carrier with our missiles. I have personally witnessed more than one cruiser CO stake his career on keeping his ship at shotgun station, even during synthetic exercises. (When I was on an FFG, we also took CV shotgun, and it sucked; the carrier was always going 25 knots or more, which was a struggle for our ship and meant we had to endure constant heavy vibration and --in the berthing on the waterline-- water rushing loudly along the hull.)

One of the tasks I had to learn as a JOOD on the cruiser was maneuvering board...also known as MOBOARD. One of the typical uses of that skill was in station keeping during maneuvers. Without going too deep into the process, inner screen positions are typically based on a RELATIVE bearing arc and a distance from the carrier. For example, that CV shotgun station I mentioned earlier might be 160-180/1000-2000 yards. The outer screen may be 10 to 20 thousand yards out or more and are more likely to be along a TRUE bearing from the carrier, such as along a threat bearing.

When the carrier turns, all of the escorts will be out of position and will need to maneuver back to their assigned stations as quickly as possible. My CO's expression for that was, "maneuvering in a destroyer-like fashion." Safe, fast, and on as direct a course as possible. His absolute rule was that at no time would we put our ship closer than 3000 yards ahead, 2000 yards abeam, or 1000 yards astern of the carrier unless he was on the bridge.

Maneuvering the carrier and her screen begins with the carrier signaling her escorts of her intent to turn, generally at a specific time, but may be "on execute," which is the naval way of saying, "When I say *execute*, everybody turn." All of the escorts must acknowledge the intent-to-turn signal. On each of the escorts, the JOOD begins working the MOBOARD to calculate the optimum course and speed to regain station, preparing orders to the helm for when the execute order is given.

My point is not to make ship-drivers out of anyone here (no doubt, there are quite a few who would be better at that than I), but to point out that maneuvering a carrier formation is inherently and incredibly complex. The process isn't automated IRL, and you can't expect to accurately simulate it by relegating it to a script.

In developing my own SP missions, I've noticed that the ship on CV shotgun station maneuvers pretty realistically when the carrier turns, provided it's in the same group as the CVN. I don't put more than the carrier and the CV shotgun in the group; other escorts are in their own groups and maneuver separately. To create the illusion of coordinated formation maneuvering, I set up the carrier's waypoints first, then copy and paste it to where I want an escort in the outer screen, changing the unit type  in the pasted group as appropriate. That way, when the carrier turns, the CV shotgun maneuvers back to its station astern of the carrier and the outer screen turns on time to the correct course and speed to maintain station. 

[_Hoss]

Milling about in a military manner...... LOL...? 

Seven WESTPACS on three different boats, two were ships company. You sound like a black shoe, Quartermaster?..... or Bosun?

[Yoda967]

Who me, Hoss?

Definitely a black shoe. Fire Controlman, actually. On the carrier, my collateral duty was as electrical safety PO for NAV division, which meant I could go hang out on the bridge any time I wanted, as long as I had a multimeter and wasn't in anybody's way. Best place to watch flight ops outside of PRIFLY.

On my last ship (a Spruance DD), I was shipboard training team leader and designed almost all of the scenarios we used to get ready for FEP during two workup cycles. Gave me a good reason to go around asking people detailed questions about what they do and why.

After I retired, I spent years working in the training community as a war game scenario designer, part of a team that included retired captains and active duty aviators. They taught me a ton.