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Main A-A RWS to TWS mode change missing


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A-A radar RWS to TWS mode change is missing its main implementation, the HOTAS command via the RAID button, commanding TWS in AUTO mode. Why is this the main implementation? The F-18C has this on HOTAS = main command mode. RDDI5 (RWS>TWS in MAN mode) requires the pilot to take hand from stick to engage mode = less prioritized alternate method.

 

As this is a non existent function no track file is appended.


Edited by Bear21
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Hi

The RAID button is for 1LOOKRAID, not STT RAID SAM

 

do you have any evidence of this different behaviour?

 

 If so please PM me

 

thank you

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The above description was not always a feature, came in with 21X - so it may not necessarily need to be implemented.  Only with an L&S selected and RWS and it goes into TWS Auto.  TWS manual is seldom used.

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1 hour ago, Mo410 said:

The above description was not always a feature, came in with 21X - so it may not necessarily need to be implemented.  Only with an L&S selected and RWS and it goes into TWS Auto.  TWS manual is seldom used.

There's the answer, thanks. If it's added in 21X unlikely ED's got the info then.

 

We'll still get HOTASability of TWS sometime via the cursor though, y'all, fyi.


Edited by Jak525
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Mo410 said:

The above description was not always a feature, came in with 21X - so it may not necessarily need to be implemented.  Only with an L&S selected and RWS and it goes into TWS Auto.  TWS manual is seldom used.

"TWS manual is seldom used". as an ex fighter pilot I understand this fully, if you want to use F-pole and other manouvers it's almost impossible to nanny a MAN TWS and fight at the same time. This is where a radar processor that has all the info anyway (it has the trackfliles) does a much better job. In the present DCS implementation it's worse as the TDC, around which the MAN TWS scanes, gets stowed when the TWS mode starts.


Edited by Bear21

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41 minutes ago, Bear21 said:

"TWS manual is seldom used". as an ex fighter pilot I understand this fully, if you want to use F-pole and other manouvers it's almost impossible to nanny a MAN TWS and fight at the same time. This is where a radar processor that has all the info anyway (it has the trackfliles) does a much better job. In the present DCS implementation it's worse as the TDC, around which the MAN TWS scanes, gets stowed when the TWS mode starts.

 

 

One of the sim-isms in DCS and other sims are 'unrealistic' situations where you might find yourself going solo against some very crafty bandits, stacked at different altitudes, spread up all over the sky and 'weeds'. Even w/o AWACS you might've been able to sort them out from far away and your radar scan volume was sufficient, then as you get closer... you need AESA:fear:

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Posted (edited)

There is a way around the present DCS RWS to TWS change where MAN is default together with a non correct DCT stowed position (which focuses the TWS scan on the wrong azimuth until TDC is moved over the targets).

 

At fence in go RWS>TWS (it doesn't matter there are no bricks or tracks or set L&S/DT2 in LTWS) and set AUTO. RWS to TWS now defaults to AUTO in switches going forward. If L&S/DT2 is not set in LTWS, AUTO tracking doesn't activate until it's set. The main benefit is then it prohibits the MAN with a stowed position of the TDC. The scan now stays where the scan was in RWS before the switch. If you set L&S/DT2 using LTWS you have a functional AUTO track from go in TWS.

 


Edited by Bear21
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18 minutes ago, Bear21 said:

There is a way around the present DCS RWS to TWS change where MAN is default together with a non correct DCT stowed position (which focuses the TWS scan on the wrong azimuth until TDC is moved over the targets).

 

At fence in go RWS>TWS (it doesn't matter there are no bricks or MIDS tracks) and set AUTO. RWS to TWS now defaults to AUTO in switches going forward. As an L&S is mostly not set the AUTO tracking doesn't activate until it's set, the main benefit is it prohibits the MAN with a stowed position of the TDC. The scan now stays where the scan was in RWS before the switch.

 

This present behavior is actually wrong. TWS switch from RWS should default to MAN even with AUTO previously selected, with the exception of the later-added HOTAS command via the RAID switch. However selecting PB5 or using the cursor to do so should default to MAN. Other than that the only time it should default to AUTO is from STT. The other exception is when an AMRAAM is fired in RWS then it should go to TWS automatically in AUTO mode.

 

Regardless it would be way quicker to go to TWS AUTO from RWS if they would implement the cursor selection of those push buttons. Quickly select TWS via cursor then move to select AUTO also via cursor. Remember the RAID switch shortcut wasn't always in the real jet either.


Edited by Jak525
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Posted (edited)

We shall be happy the fence-in priming of the TWS in AUTO works. With the absence of the RAID switch and the incorrect stowing of the TDC this is our way out of the situation for now. As an ex fighter pilot I fail to see the usefulness of the MAN mode? Please tell me it's benefits. The only instance that has 100% info on the present L&S/DT2 track vectors and how these relates to the alt/az scan limits is the radar processor, thus it's the most fit to guarantee the tracks are active when I launch the AIM-120 and that the track remains after launch until ACT=0.

 

 As Mo410 writes, MAN is seldom used and for good reason.


Edited by Bear21

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Manual can be used to terminate datalink to the missile without going into an ACM mode which can remove Link-16 track info - not sure if this is modelled or not.  You can also move the radar FOV around too in MAN, but might as well do that in RWS.  Normal flow would be to search and ID in RWS, STT for one shot, undesignate into TWS (Auto), shoot the remain contacts and leave or merge.  If only one contact or targets mnvr, back to STT if necessary.  It is there in reality, so ED put it in there, it is just not overly useful given the strengths of RWS information.

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12 hours ago, Mo410 said:

The above description was not always a feature, came in with 21X 

 

If it came in with 21x then it is not something we would use to verify data. 

 

thanks

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7 hours ago, Mo410 said:

Manual can be used to terminate datalink to the missile without going into an ACM mode which can remove Link-16 track info - not sure if this is modelled or not.  You can also move the radar FOV around too in MAN, but might as well do that in RWS.  Normal flow would be to search and ID in RWS, STT for one shot, undesignate into TWS (Auto), shoot the remain contacts and leave or merge.  If only one contact or targets mnvr, back to STT if necessary.  It is there in reality, so ED put it in there, it is just not overly useful given the strengths of RWS information.

 

Quick question:  when going from TWS back to RWS, does the az/bars setting change to pre-programmed RWS setting or TWS FOV is carried over to RWS?

Currently, we have to toggle to a different A/A weapon and back to Amraam to go back to originally programmed parameters.

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If you push button (PB5) to TWS then the parameters stay the same.  If you switch weapons and exit TWS via and ACM mode (most common, a quick boresight / undesg), then you get the weapon settings, which is a feature to help you clear the airspace ahead of you.

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2 hours ago, Mo410 said:

If you push button (PB5) to TWS then the parameters stay the same.  If you switch weapons and exit TWS via and ACM mode (most common, a quick boresight / undesg), then you get the weapon settings, which is a feature to help you clear the airspace ahead of you.

Thanks, I hope it'll get implemented.

 

Another Q if I may:   The current RAID implementation allows designating each of the closely spaced bandits and sending an Amraam to them, once they are all within WEZ. This was a nifty feature not that long ago until both radar and Amraams got dumbed down.

The designation in RAID was done by double clicking the TDC on each bandit. Is this behavior realistic or a different mech is involved? 


Edited by Gripes323
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Single TDC action should be required, a double action (>.3 s) would command STT.  Single action to make L&S, single action to unmake it. 

 

With an L&S already, single action to make another track a DT2, single action on same contact to make it the L&S and swap DT2 to previous L&S.  

 

DT2's are good for when you need to shoot specific targets in a group when there are multiple, or running an VID and you want to keep track of both as long as possible.  Otherwise, EXP and stepping work well and avoid the DT2 headache.

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14 minutes ago, Mo410 said:

Single TDC action should be required, a double action (>.3 s) would command STT.  Single action to make L&S, single action to unmake it. 

 

With an L&S already, single action to make another track a DT2, single action on same contact to make it the L&S and swap DT2 to previous L&S.  

 

DT2's are good for when you need to shoot specific targets in a group when there are multiple, or running an VID and you want to keep track of both as long as possible.  Otherwise, EXP and stepping work well and avoid the DT2 headache.

Got you, will try with EXP.  

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19 minutes ago, Mo410 said:

Single TDC action should be required, a double action (>.3 s) would command STT.  Single action to make L&S, single action to unmake it. 

 

With an L&S already, single action to make another track a DT2, single action on same contact to make it the L&S and swap DT2 to previous L&S.  

Interesting, this is definitely way newer logic. The double action didn't use to exist. You have to use RSET to undo the L&S. A single action on the L&S would go to STT. Also depressing on the DT2 makes it L&S, but undesignates the old L&S rather than making it the DT2 as wel.

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Only way to undo an L&S is reset (or ACM mode), but if you happen to have DT2's you can swap them, maybe it wasn't clear.  Double click almost always results in STT / mini-raster.  

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I'm describing the way it works currently in DCS.  (4 bandits in fairly close form)

 

In EXP:  same as normal TWS except spacing between bandits is slightly larger.  

              L&S and DT2 set.   By pressing the pinky (undesig) once I can toggle L&S to DT2.   Press it again and they are swapped back.   Press it 3rd time,  L&S goes to bandit #3.   Press it 4th time, L&S goes to #4.  Another press and L&S is back on #1.  Weird but it works.  The toggling part that is, the radar is royally fudged.

 

In RAID: when entering, the L&S is there already... first fox3.   TDC depress on whichever track you want next, you'll see a tiny diamond in the center of the track. Press TDC again, it's an L&S now.  You have to pay close attention not to designate the same bandit twice.  The L&S will always be in the center of display, the rest of the group will shift accordingly.

 

So... call it what you will but it used to work quite good in the sim. I would kill 4 out of 4 launching from RAID.  Not any more... 2 or 1 out of 4 (co-altitude, non maneuvering):crash:


Edited by Gripes323
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2 hours ago, Mo410 said:

Only way to undo an L&S is reset (or ACM mode), but if you happen to have DT2's you can swap them, maybe it wasn't clear.  Double click almost always results in STT / mini-raster.  

Ah OK. Bottom line is single TDC depress on a HAFU that's already L&S = acquisition. If no DT2 exists, an undesignated trackfile would be STT'd in 2 depresses (once to designate as L&S, another to STT). Yeah?

 

Really though this is all just a convoluted alternative to using Fast Acq (bumping Castle toward the Attack format), which STTs anything under the cursor with one press.

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Different techniques for different folks.  To shoot a 4 ship, RWS detects and breaks out at least one.  STT that contact and go into TWS.  See how many it breaks out.  If it breaks them all out, shoot step shoot step shoot etc.  Watch that it steps correctly.  If not, SCAN RAID to break it out, again same shoot step, but because you are zoomed in, there is a potential for stepping to the wrong contact without knowing it.  One cue is to watch the triangle flyout at the bottom, it shouldn't move much when you step.  Once all shots are gone, back to TWS until active and then decide.  If you break all four out in TWS, shoot step, etc - SCAN RAID only if necessary.  Try to keep as much SA as possible by avoiding SCAN RAID/EXP as it may stop you from picking up a closer threat if you stay in it too long, or gimbal the target before you want to, it happens a lot.

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1 hour ago, Mo410 said:

Different techniques for different folks.  To shoot a 4 ship, RWS detects and breaks out at least one.  STT that contact and go into TWS.  See how many it breaks out.  If it breaks them all out, shoot step shoot step shoot etc.  Watch that it steps correctly.  If not, SCAN RAID to break it out, again same shoot step, but because you are zoomed in, there is a potential for stepping to the wrong contact without knowing it.  One cue is to watch the triangle flyout at the bottom, it shouldn't move much when you step.  Once all shots are gone, back to TWS until active and then decide.  If you break all four out in TWS, shoot step, etc - SCAN RAID only if necessary.  Try to keep as much SA as possible by avoiding SCAN RAID/EXP as it may stop you from picking up a closer threat if you stay in it too long, or gimbal the target before you want to, it happens a lot.

Awesome insight. Sadly the radar physics aspect of this whole thing is not yet applicable in DCS. Hopefully one day we see an advanced enough simulation to see something like this. Regardless we can still have the modes to make the avionics 'feel' realistic even if the physical radar beams are rather simplified.

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On 4/2/2021 at 1:42 AM, Mo410 said:

Different techniques for different folks.  To shoot a 4 ship, RWS detects and breaks out at least one.  STT that contact and go into TWS.  See how many it breaks out.  If it breaks them all out, shoot step shoot step shoot etc.  Watch that it steps correctly.  If not, SCAN RAID to break it out, again same shoot step, but because you are zoomed in, there is a potential for stepping to the wrong contact without knowing it.  One cue is to watch the triangle flyout at the bottom, it shouldn't move much when you step.  Once all shots are gone, back to TWS until active and then decide.  If you break all four out in TWS, shoot step, etc - SCAN RAID only if necessary.  Try to keep as much SA as possible by avoiding SCAN RAID/EXP as it may stop you from picking up a closer threat if you stay in it too long, or gimbal the target before you want to, it happens a lot.

Mo, you say shoot step, shoot step... how do you mechanize that? With undesignate then trigger, undesignate then trigger,...?

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1 hour ago, Bear21 said:

Mo, you say shoot step, shoot step... how do you mechanize that? With undesignate then trigger, undesignate then trigger,...?

I believe that is what he means, yes.

 

Undesignate button should make your previously DT2 target an L&S track while in TWS mode. At least, that's how I understand it.

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If you don't have a DT2, the undesignate button will step the L&S through the ranked HAFUs, in descending rank order.

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