ECM and STT

[Cmptohocah]

When some one locks me in a single target track, while I have my ECM on (jammer) and out side the burn through, my RWR reports it.

My question: how is this achieved by the targeting radar? It does not have any other information other the azimuth, so how can it pin-point the track strobe at me?

[draconus]

In current implementation you burn like a star with ECM from far away. You just deny lock and range info but the enemy's radar can still send the signal to trigger your RWR. You're easily pinpointed by az/el so the HOJ will work.

Edited March 29, 2021 by draconus

[XPACT]

Real question is why would radar switch to "continuous" illumination in HOJ firing mode as that's the only way how target aircraft RWR can detect lock, how does it precisely find target elevation and if it can why it isn't showed on the HUD then?

 

Missile launch detection is different beast entirely and is sadly very simplified in DCS. Obviously ECM is implemented arcadishly and even tho it is true that ECM is hard topic in a sense of circuitry engineering, simulating various electronic warfare methods and dividing them into corresponding adequate timeline and aircrafts is possible, but main problem is that there's no way to get the data of how effective something should be at specific distances and various conditions, not to mention aircrafts of different eras facing each other (newer jammers could for example render older aircraft radars completely unusable at any distance).

 

Then again that raises the question is it better to have simple system that is more or less arcadish like we have now but more or less equal for everyone or have realism orientated one with developers having final word on their effectivness in combat?

 

I would choose second option simply from the fact that DCS shouldn't be about balance and multiplayer PVP it should try to as much as possible simulate old/modern combat vehicles and their systems. But I also know that there's a lot of folks here who will disagree with that.

[draconus]

I'd go with educated guesses too.

[dundun92]

1 hour ago, XPACT said:

target elevation and if it can why it isn't showed on the HUD then?

Target elevation angle =/= target altitude, unless you have range information, the very thing ECM denies.

[XPACT]

1 hour ago, dundun92 said:

Target elevation angle =/= target altitude, unless you have range information, the very thing ECM denies.

 

Exactly, it was a question to @draconus

Quote

You're easily pinpointed by az/el so the HOJ will work.

 

[draconus]

I meant elevation angle.

[Cmptohocah]

12 hours ago, dundun92 said:

Target elevation angle =/= target altitude, unless you have range information, the very thing ECM denies.

Oh I see. So it can actually pin point the emissions source in both horizontal and vertical planes and basically blasts the strobe cone in that direction.

Yeah, that would make sense I guess.

 

[XPACT]

On 3/30/2021 at 11:05 AM, Cmptohocah said:

Oh I see. So it can actually pin point the emissions source in both horizontal and vertical planes and basically blasts the strobe cone in that direction.

 

Yes and when you think about it... it is correct behaviour, your radar is trying to burn through and has direction of the source so it must intercept at X distance hence enemy aircraft that is using ECM will get lock warning from RWR.

 

Only one thing that is very debatable, should jamming aircraft RWR detect missile launch?

From my understanding in HOJ missile is "beam riding" jamming signal, your radar won't change any mode nor will any data link info be transmitted to the missile while in flight, I might be wrong but if that is true there is no way for RWR to detect it.

Edited April 2, 2021 by XPACT

[GGTharos]

21 hours ago, XPACT said:

Only one thing that is very debatable, should jamming aircraft RWR detect missile launch?

From my understanding in HOJ missile is "beam riding" jamming signal, your radar won't change any mode nor will any data link info be transmitted to the missile while in flight, I might be wrong but if that is true there is no way for RWR to detect it.

 

No, it isn't 'beam riding'.  'Beam Riding' is a specific type of guidance and has absolutely nothing to do with this - in fact the AAMs we use in game are incapable of it.

There's no reason to believe that the radar won't go through the trouble of generating all of its regular engagement emissions, including data-link - the most correct position about these systems is 'it will do everything the same way for the same type of action unless we're told it doesn't' 

 

HoJ shots aren't 'stealth', you don't pay like this for turning your ECM on.  Further, an SPJ generates the same signal as the attacking radar (ie. it is a repeater) but it retrasmitms either too often (more pulses than there were) thus jamming range, with different doppler shift (jams closure) or jams the sidelobes (angles jamming) not to mention other techniques.  But the point is that it repeats the attacker's signal, which is why the offending radars listen to it.   And the offending radar will do everything 'as normal' because what else should it do?  It'll go through its ECCM routines of hopping frequencies and other fun stuff, but all of this also needs to be communicated to the missile in flight.

Edited April 3, 2021 by GGTharos

[XPACT]

3 hours ago, GGTharos said:

No, it isn't 'beam riding'.  'Beam Riding' is a specific type of guidance and has absolutely nothing to do with this

 

Yeah I ****ed that up, thought it was correct word for it. My bad.

 

There is one thing I am not sure of, does the missile depend on received transmission from SPJ or is primarily using data link for guidence? When I think about it data link seems more plausible,  at least in the beginning of the flight, since launching aircraft has much more processing power to counter use of ECM especially since multiple techniques will be used to hide exact position of jamming aircraft.

 

I was in delusion that missile would follow transmitting signal el/az angle and just try to hit, but IRL there are ways to make that very complicated and not useful.

[GGTharos]

It will home on az/el just like a heat seeker would.   Depending on the ECM it can do this better or worse.

 

The missile, when the seeker it activated will home in on the reflected energy from the launching radar (of its own if it's an active missile).  There's not necessarily a good way to tell if what you're receiving is a transmission from the SPJ or the bona-fide reflection, but what is certain is that the SPJ can and usually will be far more powerful (reducing power can be part of the deception, just like going at full power can ensure that the original signal is buried in noise).

Edited April 3, 2021 by GGTharos