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Cold war restricted F/A-18C


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Hey everyone,

 

I think I want to restrict myself to cold war era and nothing beyond, and I put the cut off point at 1990. It seems doable in the F-18 but I'm just asking for some extra eyes to help me out. I know I need to remove the AMRAAMS and 9Xs from my loadouts. I think the 7MH is ok though, obviously the 7M is fine if the MH isn't. Based on dates pulled from wikipedia I think most of the A/G weaponry is ok aside from the AGM-154s. 

 

Is there anything else I'm missing other than removing AIM-120s, AIM-9Xs, and AGM-154s? Is the litening pod ok? The JHMCS? I'm most comfortable jet-wise with the F-18. I could go back to the Mirage if I needed to though. I love the F-14 but don't prefer it over the F-18 and Mirage. 

 

It's just that the active radar stuff and more modern post cold war tools are becoming less interesting to me. 

 

Thanks 

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18 minutes ago, Relic said:

It's just that the active radar stuff and more modern post cold war tools are becoming less interesting to me. 

You could also try the F-5 or the Viggen.

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LITENING no. Baseline pods reached IOC in '99, and the AT version we have is circa '03. Hornets around that time were using AAS-38 Nitehawk pods (for the squadrons that even had them; better off letting strikers like the the A-6 take care of it).

 

Same for JHMCS, that's an early-to-mid 2000s system.

 

You could possibly get away with 7MH for a late Cold War setup; that entered service around '87.

 

9M would be a no, you'd be stuck with 9L. The 9M-1 didn't enter service until '82, but that was USAF only. The Navy didn't get 9M until the Gulf War, and even then they mostly used 9L.

 

For a mid-to-late Cold War setup for the Hornet, expect a lot of dumb bombs, Rockeyes, and maybe a HARM here or there (may be a stretch since the 88C entered service in the early 90s, but HARM in general were in service since '85).


Edited by Tholozor
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Machalot said:

You could also try the F-5 or the Viggen.

I don't see a reason to get the Viggen, personally. My brain-space is limited lmao. And when the apache releases all of my modern aircraft memory will be spent on it. I have the F-5 on my wish list. Maybe eventually. 

1 hour ago, Tholozor said:

LITENING no. Baseline pods reached IOC in '99, and the AT version we have is circa '03. Hornets around that time were using AAS-38 Nitehawk pods (for the squadrons that even had them; better off letting strikers like the the A-6 take care of it).

 

Same for JHMCS, that's an early-to-mid 2000s system.

 

You could possibly get away with 7MH for a late Cold War setup; that entered service around '87.

 

9M would be a no, you'd be stuck with 9L. The 9M-1 didn't enter service until '82, but that was USAF only. The Navy didn't get 9M until the Gulf War, and even then they mostly used 9L.

 

For a mid-to-late Cold War setup for the Hornet, expect a lot of dumb bombs, Rockeyes, and maybe a HARM here or there (may be a stretch since the 88C entered service in the early 90s, but HARM in general were in service since '85).

 

 

Thanks this is the extra detail I was looking for. 

 

Edit: But what about the F model maverick? It was released by then, but was it not used with navy hornets?


Edited by Relic

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ah, good thread. I need to write some things down, as I am working on a 1988/89 CVN-71 mediterranian deployment (that of course turns into fictional histroy)

 

- No GBU-30 series of course, no -154, no AMRAAM, no JHMCS

- Didn't know the Navy had no -9M until Gulf War.

- 7M is fine I think, when you consider the enemys you're facing in the timeframe. MH is just the loft variant, isn't it?

- How were the E-Mavs used back then? With the Nitehawk or did other platforms / JTACs lase exclusively?

- I read that AGM-88B did see a lot of use on ALPHA Hornets before, so as we have no B Harms I'd go with C.

- What about the laser GBUs? -24 wasn't a thing I assume, but the -10 series?

- Harpoon should be fine, although it's also the wrong variant I think.

- Walleye should be ok.

- SLAM was also only introduced with the Gulf War as far as I know.

- all the unguided bombs and rockets should be fine.

- Anything else?

- Use a lot of A-G radar, i guess it was its best capability in the late 80s!

 

- the biggest thing for me though is that in DCS i cannot limit data-link as much as I want. I know that MIDS has been a thing for quite some time now, but I think it wasn't ready back then.

Or was it?

 

Do I see it correctly that the Hornet was >90% used for A-G stuff, and only for the stuff the A-6 couldn't do? Don't know what that would be.

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I didn't see anyone mentioned - you can't use any GPS/INS guided weapons, co na JDAMS, JSOW etc.

Laser guided bombs:

yes: -12, -10. -16

GBU-24 was introduced in 1984, so it's ok for "Late Cold War".

 

But since you can't use TGP, you'll need a JTAC or FAC(A).

 

CBU-99/Mk-20 is also ok.

 


Edited by Foka
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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Tholozor said:

AGM-65F was IOC c.1991, you could do Laser Maverick though (IOC c. 1985).

 

Huh I had it backwards. I swore I read that the f model came first. Thanks though 

 

edit: oh my goodness, why would f come before e. My brain lol.

2 hours ago, Foka said:

I didn't see anyone mentioned - you can't use any GPS/INS guided weapons, co na JDAMS, JSOW etc.

Laser guided bombs:

yes: -12, -10. -16

GBU-24 was introduced in 1984, so it's ok for "Late Cold War".

 

But since you can use TGP, you'll need a JTAC or FAC(A).

 

CBU-99/Mk-20 is also ok.

 

 

Yeah I had figured already that the jsow/ jdams were out.

 

How did they use the E mav if they had no TGP? JTAC only?


Edited by Relic

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Posted (edited)

Here are some restricted loadouts I came up with, if I can remember correctly since I’m not at home. Modify them based on how much fuel you need. Might need more tanks and less bombs etc:

 

JHMCS OFF - SELF RESTRICTED (not sure if you can turn this off in editor)

 

CAP: AIM-9L*2, AIM-7M*2, FUEL*3

ALERT: same, fuel*1

INTERCEPT: 9L*2, 7M*4, fuel*2

CAS 1: 9L*2, 7M*2, Rockets*8, fuel*1

CAS 2: 9L*2, 7M*2, 82*8, fuel*1

CAS 3: 9L*2, 7M*2, 83*4, fuel*2

CAS 4: 9L*2, 7M*2, 84*2, fuel*2

CAS 5: 9L*2, 7M*2, Rockeyes*4, fuel*2

CAS 6: .... you get the idea. Swap for GBU 12, or 16, or AGM-65E, or AGM-88

 

Hope it helps. Or someone comes along and corrects my bad loadouts. Either way! 😄

 

Edit: corrected aim-9L typos


Edited by Relic
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JHMCS OFF - SELF RESTRICTED (not sure if you can turn this off in editor)

You can, special options tab for the unit in the editor, helmet mounted device. You can choose between JHMCS, NVG and none.
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On 3/29/2021 at 6:21 AM, Tholozor said:

AGM-65F was IOC c.1991, you could do Laser Maverick though (IOC c. 1985).

 

I remember reading that Mavericks were used as poor man's TGP in the Gulf War, as there was not enough TGP to equip all flights (Stout "hornets over Kuwait"). Maybe they used the D before Navy specialised F.

 

But yes, mostly A2G, and mostly dumb bombs were used then. They actually almost ran out of bombs. 

 

EDIT: also the Mav required the "C" model Hornet. A models flew with TGPs only. 


Edited by some1
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The IR Mavericks mostly went to the A-10s which used them for night strikes, IIRC and I've only seen references of the Air Force using them. A-10s fired like 90% of them, the rest were fired by F-16s, IIRC.

 

Do you have any references to show that the Navy/Marines used their IR variants on their Hornets in ODS? I only saw a mention of the Marines using a few dozen laser ones.


Edited by Dudikoff

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33 minutes ago, some1 said:

I remember reading that Mavericks were used as poor man's TGP in the Gulf War, as there was not enough TGP to equip all flights (Stout "hornets over Kuwait"). Maybe they used the D before Navy specialised F.

A-10A flights used the crap out of the poor-man's TGP tactic (F-16s too I think). I don't believe the Navy ever acquired the D model, since the F is basically just a D seeker strapped to an E warhead (plus some seeker logic updates for the anti-ship mode).

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1 hour ago, Dudikoff said:

Do you have any references to show that the Navy/Marines used them on their Hornets in ODS? I only saw a mention of the Marines using a few dozen laser ones.

 

The excerpt comes from Jay Stout's book, he did not use them personally, but from what he wrote it seems that other Marine squadrons did:

 

Quote

Chapter 19

Kuwait on Fire

 

            By now our squadron had been equipped with more FLIR pods. These had come at the expense of the Hornet squadrons that had come from Hawaii. They had newer C models aircraft, which had the capability to employ the infrared Maverick weapon. We weren’t able to use this weapon with our older A models, so the decision was made to give our unit some of their FLIRs while they would spend more of their sorties using the Maverick. We got the better end of the deal. The IR Maverick wasn’t very well liked. For us it was not a reliable weapon, often failing before the aircraft arrived over the battlefield. The video wasn’t so hot either, significantly less clear than the video from the FLIR pod. Additionally, the magnification was not as good, which made it difficult to identify and lock onto targets. When launched it would miss the target as often as it hit. I never heard any of our F/A-18 pilots praise the IR Maverick with much conviction, though I know the air force A-10s used them with some success

 

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He's not specifically mentioning they were used in combat in ODS, though. The few official sources I've checked mention only A-10s and F-16s on the USAF side and AV-8B on the USMC side (which would be those three dozen laser guided ones fired) as using Mavericks there.

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True, no IR mavs launched by Navy or USMC in Iraq campaign. 

 

Maybe Stout messed something up in his memoirs, or the Mavs were carried only in the role of sensor there. 

 

Screenshot 2021-03-30 124517.png


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On 3/29/2021 at 9:57 AM, Relic said:

CAP: AIM-7L*2, AIM-7M*2, FUEL*3

ALERT: same, fuel*1

INTERCEPT: 7L*2, 7M*4, fuel*2

I'm guessing "AIM-7L" should be "AIM-9L" ?

 

When did the BRU-33 enter service? Did the Hornet have a way of carrying multiple bombs per station before it?

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Question has been answered but I’ll pig-pile. Assuming you’re looking at 1989/1990. I’d say air to air stick to Aim-9M and Aim-7M

 

for A/G, no litening pod. Can use all “dumb” weapons (cluster, iron and rockets.) You can also use AGM-65E with a “buddy lase” from a ground unit or aircraft that had that capability. The problem here is the F-18 DID have self-lasing....just not with the litening pod: so maybe pretend a bit? Restrict range? 
can use HARM and HARPOON (although these models are a bit newer....is there really THAT much of a difference?)
agm-65 F was used but mainly for ships....but it WAS around. 

 

If you look at the work F/A-18s did in Desert Storm, it was A/A with aim-9m and aim-7m.

A/G was mainly dumb bombs: mk 83’s and 84’s and cluster munitions. Most of the laser guided work was the f-111s, F-15Es and F-117s

 

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1 hour ago, Bunny Clark said:

I'm guessing "AIM-7L" should be "AIM-9L" ?

 

When did the BRU-33 enter service? Did the Hornet have a way of carrying multiple bombs per station before it?

Lol yeah it's the 9L. I was at work typing that and didn't realize my mistake. 😄  I didn't even think of the rack or when it entered service, that's a great question!

1 hour ago, Mikeck said:

Question has been answered but I’ll pig-pile. Assuming you’re looking at 1989/1990. I’d say air to air stick to Aim-9M and Aim-7M

 

for A/G, no litening pod. Can use all “dumb” weapons (cluster, iron and rockets.) You can also use AGM-65E with a “buddy lase” from a ground unit or aircraft that had that capability. The problem here is the F-18 DID have self-lasing....just not with the litening pod: so maybe pretend a bit? Restrict range? 
can use HARM and HARPOON (although these models are a bit newer....is there really THAT much of a difference?)
agm-65 F was used but mainly for ships....but it WAS around. 

 

If you look at the work F/A-18s did in Desert Storm, it was A/A with aim-9m and aim-7m.

A/G was mainly dumb bombs: mk 83’s and 84’s and cluster munitions. Most of the laser guided work was the f-111s, F-15Es and F-117s

 

Yeah I was thinking 80s. Obviously cold war lasted a couple decades and had different generations of jets. "Late cold war" is probably what I'm looking for. Someone else pointed out that AIM-9M wasn't used by Navy until Gulf war 1 1991, so cold war restricted Navy jets should be using AIM-9L (my example loadouts had a typo of 7L). 

 

About the TGP, i'm not sure. Some have mentioned a nightpod or something? So the hornet had some sort of inferior TGP? I think it'd be "close enough" then to use litening pod for the cold war restricted hornet, and leave the ATFLIR for modern ops. 

 

Swap out JHMCS for NVGS in editor or at start up I think. Ground crew might give you the option. 

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Nite Hawk was, for most part, a contemporary of the early LITENING, it entered very limited service (read: a total four of them) during Gulf War. I do hope ED adds it someday, the LITENING we have is a fairly modern version. Nite Hawk would represent pre-ATFLIR carrier equipment.

 

In general, you wouldn't have a TGP during Cold War. The only aircraft to have a full-blown TGP available to them were the Phantom and the F-111, with the PAVE TACK infrared pod (which was a massive, draggy beast). There were laser designator pods with a simple TV camera available for Phantoms and Intruders as early as Vietnam (PAVE KNIFE and PAVE SPIKE), but they were much more primitive than a TGP, and Hornet carried neither.


Edited by Dragon1-1
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On 3/30/2021 at 6:57 AM, some1 said:

True, no IR mavs launched by Navy or USMC in Iraq campaign. 

 

Maybe Stout messed something up in his memoirs, or the Mavs were carried only in the role of sensor there. 

 

Screenshot 2021-03-30 124517.png

 

 

 

im confused. I thought the AGm65C barely existed. it was a experimental thing that resulted in maybe a very low rate production, and eventually just got scrapped and the project morphed into the AGM65E.

 

https://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-65.html

 

"The AGM-65C was to be a semi-active laser guided version for the U.S. Marine Corps. It was intended for close air support, and was equipped with a heavier 113 kg (250 lb) MK 19 blast-fragmentation warhead. Full-scale development began in 1978, but only a few AGM-65C missiles were built and the program was eventually cancelled because of high costs. The USMC's laser-guided Maverick requirement was later satisfied with the AGM-65E, q.v."

 

Im wondering which platforms in desert storm actually fired the AGM65C considering ive never seen USN/USMC aircraft documentation that specifically listed the AGM65C as an authorised store. So it genuinely comes as a surprise that any AGM65C's were fired.

 

 

 

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