Cold War MANPADS

[Northstar98]

Hi everyone,

Would it be possible in the future to add some more Cold War era MANPADS?

Namely systems such as:

• 9K32M Strela-2M [SA-7B Grail] - early 70s
• FIM-43C/D Redeye Block III/IV - late 60s
• 9K34 Strela-3 [SA-14 Gremlin] - mid 70s
• FIM-92A Stinger Basic - early 80s
• FIM-92B Stinger POST - late 80s
• Blowpipe - mid 70s
• RBS 70 Mk. 1 - mid 70s
• Javelin - mid 80s

The 9K32M Strela-2M [SA-7B Grail] in particular was/is incredibly prolific, if not probably the most prolific MANPADS, with absolutely tonnes of operators (both former and current) with a lengthy and rich service life in many conflicts around the world. It's also a staple air defence system for Cold War REDFOR.

The FIM-43C/D and FIM-92A are more appropriate BLUFOR contemporaries for a Cold War setting. Blowpipe and FIM-92A/B would also fit the South Atlantic map (former used by both sides, latter used by British SOF). EDIT: Now that an Afghanistan map has been formerly announced, the FIM-92A/B and 9K32/32M would also be perfect for Afghanistan missions (where we already have 2 helicopters that more or less fit). Though the Afghanistan map will likely be a modern day one.

 

At the moment we only have the following MANPADS:

• 9K38 Igla [SA-18 Grouch] (though unsure of the missile used in DCS, though both the Igla and Igla-S fire the same missile, see here) - early 1980s
• 9K338 Igla-S [SA-24 Grinch] - mid 2000s
• FIM-92C Stinger RMP (which is also the missile fired by our M1907 Heavy Avenger and M6(A2?) Linebacker) - early 90s

So out of all of them it's only really the Igla that fits the Cold War, only it's just a copied Igla-S with a different name as far as I can tell.

Edited March 8 by Northstar98
Addendum - Afghanistan map formerly announced

[bies]

Absolutely yes. Each of them would be a great opponent for the Mi-24.

[Northstar98]

On 3/28/2021 at 1:12 PM, bies said:

Absolutely yes. Each of them would be a great opponent for the Mi-24.

Yeah that was my main reason as to why (especially if we get more Soviet variants namely the V) though they're all much more suitable for Cold War stuff. 

Edited February 19, 2022 by Northstar98

[Northstar98]

On 3/28/2021 at 11:33 PM, Desert Fox said:

Hind coming, Afghanistan map coming, requesting 80s Stingers... see what you did there

 

+1

I mean, even Cold War in general, and I'm holding out hoping for a Mi-24V somewhere down the line, just given how much of it would be a copy and paste job of the P.

And with the Strela-2M, it's quite literally all over the place in basically every conflict since it was introduced.

The only real Cold War MANPAD we have is the 9K38 Igla, only DCS being DCS it's just a copy and pasted 9K338 Igla-S - literally using the same missile from what I can see.

I'm also hoping that the IR rework (of which IR missiles are a part of) are getting a fidelity increase to their seekers - hopefully meaning that old IRCM systems like Lipa will have some use (which they should against the Strela-2M and Redeye).

Edited February 19, 2022 by Northstar98
formatting

[Silver_Dragon]

Some of Cold War MANPADS 3D models (Sa-7, Sa-14, Sa-16) has into DCS directories, but missing propper infantry units and rework them (has very old and never implement).

[kseremak]

Agree. MANPADs would be relatively easy model anyway, '70 and '80 models are declassified, and they would add a lot of realism and another danger element to consider to Cold War scenarios.

[upyr1]

Yes

[twistking]

bump for visibility!

 

extra bump for SA-7 and Redeye

 

 

[Harlikwin]

Yes more early manpads. 

[Enduro14]

+1000

[Harlikwin]

On 3/28/2021 at 5:56 AM, Northstar98 said:

Hi Everyone,

 

Would it be possible in the future to add some more Cold War era MANPADS?

 

Namely systems such as:

• 9K32M "Strela-2M" [SA-7b "Grail"] - early 70s
• FIM-43C/D Redeye Block III/IV - late 60s
• 9K34 "Strela-3" [SA-14 "Gremlin"] - mid 70s
• FIM-92A Stinger Basic - early 80s
• FIM-92B Stinger POST - late 80s
• Blowpipe - mid 70s
• RBS 70 Mk.1 - mid 70s
• Javelin - mid 80s

The 9K32M "Strela-2M" [SA-7b "Grail"] in particular was incredibly prolific, probably the most prolific with absolutely tonnes of operators (both former and current) with a lengthy and rich service life in many conflicts around the world. It's also a staple air defence system for Cold War REDFOR.

 

The FIM-43C/D and FIM-92A are more appropriate Cold War era variants  

 

At the moment we have the following MANPADS:

• 9K38 "Igla" [SA-18 "Grouch"] (though unsure of the missile used in DCS, though both the Igla and Igla-S fire the same missile, see here) ~mid 1980s 
• 9K338 "Igla-S" [SA-24 "Grinch"] -mid 2000s.
• FIM-92C Stinger RMP (also used on the M1907 Heavy Avenger and M6(A2? Linebacker) - early 90s.

So out of all of them it's only really the Igla that fits the Cold War, only it's just a copied Igla-S with a different name as far as I can tell.

 

 

And honestly its not like there is much actual 3D work that would need to be done, guy with a manpad looks like a guy with a manpad. so really only the missile and seeker logic would have to be adjusted, which AFAIK is a few lines in a LUA file. 

 

[Northstar98]

On 9/26/2021 at 7:38 PM, Harlikwin said:

And honestly its not like there is much actual 3D work that would need to be done, guy with a manpad looks like a guy with a manpad. so really only the missile and seeker logic would have to be adjusted, which AFAIK is a few lines in a LUA file.

The Redeye and Stinger missiles look very much alike, Redeye just has rear fins that extend reawards past the missile body and is a bit shorter.

The 2 Strelas are basically identical (both missile and launcher - only difference is the thermal battery).

The RBS 70 is significantly different though, Blowpipe and Javelin are very much alike (apart from the sight on top of the launcher, missiles look identical), but are again different to the rest.

I'll post pictures down below if anyone wants a comparison.

Spoiler

9K32 'Strela-2' [SA-7 Grail]

 

9K34 'Strela-3' [SA-14 Gremlin]:

 

FIM-43 Redeye:

 

FIM-92:

 

Blowpipe:

 

Javelin:

 

RBS 70:

Edited February 19, 2022 by Northstar98
formatting

[Tippis]

42 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

And honestly its not like there is much actual 3D work that would need to be done, guy with a manpad looks like a guy with a manpad. so really only the missile and seeker logic would have to be adjusted, which AFAIK is a few lines in a LUA file.

In most cases, it's not even “a few lines” but rather 2 or 3 numbers that need to be adjust.

 

The seeker type is a single enum, and that sets up so many defaults that often aren't even touched as far as the logic goes. For IR seekers, it really only comes down to two more numbers: countermeasure die roll modifier and a sensitivity (target size multiplier) parameter. For optical seekers, it's not even that.

 

The most “work” would be in defining targeting arc/search zones andmaximum detection ranges — all of which are almost universally the same. The rest is in the missile kinematic parameters and just the regular things any unit needs to have in its definition (hitpoints, movement speed, ammo capacity, rearm time — again, things that are pretty much universally the same for all infantry units). So yeah, it's really just a 3D model and possibly a missile tweak (but the differences here are questionable for the outside observer anyway). Everything else is a hard day's work of copy-paste.  

[Harlikwin]

45 minutes ago, Tippis said:

In most cases, it's not even “a few lines” but rather 2 or 3 numbers that need to be adjust.

 

The seeker type is a single enum, and that sets up so many defaults that often aren't even touched as far as the logic goes. For IR seekers, it really only comes down to two more numbers: countermeasure die roll modifier and a sensitivity (target size multiplier) parameter. For optical seekers, it's not even that.

 

The most “work” would be in defining targeting arc/search zones andmaximum detection ranges — all of which are almost universally the same. The rest is in the missile kinematic parameters and just the regular things any unit needs to have in its definition (hitpoints, movement speed, ammo capacity, rearm time — again, things that are pretty much universally the same for all infantry units). So yeah, it's really just a 3D model and possibly a missile tweak (but the differences here are questionable for the outside observer anyway). Everything else is a hard day's work of copy-paste.  

 

I assume that we will see these fine new units in 2 short weeks then.

58 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

 

The Redeye and Stinger missiles look very much alike, Redeye just has rear fins that extend reawards past the missile body and is a bit shorter.

 

The 2 Strelas are basically identical (both missile and launcher - only difference is the thermal battery).

 

The RBS 70 is significantly different though, Blowpipe and Javelin are very much alike (apart from the sight on top of the launcher, missiles look identical), but are again different to the rest.

 

I'll post pictures down below if anyone wants a comparison.

 

  Hide contents

9K32 Strela-2 [SA-7 "Grail"]

 

 

9K34 Strela-3 [SA-14 "Gremlin"]:

 

 

FIM-43 Redeye:

 

 

FIM-92:

 

 

Blowpipe:

 

 

Javelin:

 

 

RBS 70:

 

 

 

 

RBS-70 aside. The SA-7/redey/stinger etc can be handleed well enough by the existing 3d model. And really just make the front cylinder bigger for the blowpipe. Blowpipe guidance might be some actual work. But just set it always miss and it will be an accurate representation of the system.

 

[Raviar]

This thread needs way more attentions, most of DCS Jet modules are 60s/70s/80s and 90s, we need same era SAMs and air defenses 

[Harlikwin]

I mean the main ones for manpads are the Sa-7 series, and redeye for the US. Blowpipe if you want to go all crazy but it was a terrible system, but maybe we get those with the Falklands map/asset pack. 

It would be nice to see some "older" versions of systems in the game, i.e. Chapperal which we have is basically the last system fielded in the very late 80's. But the system had like 2 prior variants that would be FAR more relevant. Same thing for the Hawk/iHawk system. Again, no 3d model changes needed, just update some values in the lua files. And while we are at it same for the SA-2/3/6 systems we have, though there at least they still mostly fit into the cold war. 

 

[Northstar98]

On 5/23/2022 at 3:54 PM, Harlikwin said:

I mean the main ones for manpads are the Sa-7 series

Yeah, that's the main one I'm interested in, owing to just how prolific it is.

On 5/23/2022 at 3:54 PM, Harlikwin said:

Blowpipe if you want to go all crazy but it was a terrible system, but maybe we get those with the Falklands map/asset pack.

I mean, it was used on both sides.

But then FIM-92A Stinger Basic also fits, as does, to a lesser extent, the Strela-2M.

On 5/23/2022 at 3:54 PM, Harlikwin said:

i.e. Chapperal which we have is basically the last system fielded in the very late 80's. But the system had like 2 prior variants that would be FAR more relevant.

Yeah, MIM-72A and C would be great.

On 5/23/2022 at 3:54 PM, Harlikwin said:

Same thing for the Hawk/iHawk system.

Meh, the version of the HAWK we have is the MIM-23B I-HAWK PIP Phase 1 (though the FCR model is actually of a German AN/MPQ-57 HPIR (HEOS)) which is from the Phase 2, as opposed to the AN/MPQ-46). The PAR and CWAR is accurate for PIP Phase 1 and 2.

Pretty much all operators of the HAWK have at some point used this system (including Belgium, Denmark, France, FRG, Greece, Italy, Japan, Netherlands, Saudi Arabia, ROC, ROK and the USA) from late 70s/early 80s - pretty prolific.

The only thing we're really missing with the I-HAWK system is a few battery components - they aren't major items, but would be good to get the system complete.

On 5/23/2022 at 3:54 PM, Harlikwin said:

And while we are at it same for the SA-2/3/6 systems we have, though there at least they still mostly fit into the cold war.

They all fit into the Cold War, the latest system being the SA-6.

Unfortunately though the variant of the SA-6 is ambiguous but it seems to best fit the 2K12M3 'Kub-M3' [SA-6b Gainful], which is mid-ish 70s. The SA-2 and SA-3 variants we have are the SA-2d and SA-3b, both of which are from the mid 60s and both would fit into say, a Vietnam scenario AFAIK.

Edited July 24, 2022 by Northstar98

[upyr1]

the redeye would be awesome

[twistking]

have to bump this thread once more!

first generation manpads are really needed!

[Callsign112]

On 5/23/2022 at 8:30 AM, Raviar said:

This thread needs way more attentions, most of DCS Jet modules are 60s/70s/80s and 90s, we need same era SAMs and air defenses 

I think this pretty much covers what needs to be said here.

[Baco]

Bump.

Pretty please!!! very much needed.

Mirage F1 out, Mig 23, F-8, A-7, F-4, comming... We need Air Defenses from the same era, not late 80s and 2000s defenses...

Edited August 1, 2022 by Baco

[Harlikwin]

28 minutes ago, Baco said:

Bump.

Pretty please!!! very much needed.

Mirage F1 out, Mig 23, F-8, A-7, F-4, comming... We need Air Defenses from the same era, not late 80s and 2000s defenses...

 

I mean the saddest part being some stuff like the chap is like a quick lua change for the missile 

Or the "the man with the tube on his shoulder" though ED will claim making a 20million poly model is needed...

 

 

[Raviar]

Is there any ongoing development by any chance on any of these SAMs ?
@BIGNEWY

@NineLine

Thanks

Edited February 10, 2023 by Raviar

[twistking]

ED, make some early gen manpads please!

[Biggus]

I'll add my voice to this request too.  Very important for the late Cold War era modules and scenarios.  Excellent work has been done on adding AAA, but SA-7s and Redeyes would be extremely welcome.