Mi-24 Facing the reality.

[Fri13]

7 minutes ago, 3WA said:

Lol, the US Government doesn't come after anyone for "guesses".  I doubt if Russia does either.  Their new "Law" is just chutzpa.  Simulators have been doing guesses for YEARS.

If governments cared about sims, ARMA would NEVER have been.  Hell, I remember playing the "super secret" F117 Night Hawk sim back in the 90's.

 

Well, I think that if you would come to make too good educated guesses with all accurate data and all, they would investigate but if they quickly find out that it is just pure luck, they are not going to make a case for it that what there is true. They would instead silently just change things to make them incorrect.

And Russian law is just the normal "foreign agent" law like that many countries does have, like the USA has same. There are far older existing laws about not allowing to reveal any military information to anyone that can be about operations, doctrine or anything like that. Like many countries has laws that all you really can tell is your name, rank and base. Nothing else really.

But regardless all that, no one is really going chase anyone from posting videos or photos of their service and so on. Heck, people have even been using phones to send to twitter a GPS tagged photos from on going operations and such. Of course they will get the speech but if nothing severe happened then nothing really comes out of it. 

 

Such laws are just there so when it comes to time to do a case, they can be used. 

[3WA]

Yeah, the only time I have ever seen a person convicted of "giving away secrets" was when some idiot sailor on a submarine ( which the US seems to consider the most secret thing we have ) took a photo of a control panel on one of our most advanced submarines.  He was convicted of something or other, and did some jail time, but the case was ridiculed by everyone as overkill and over-reach of the Law.  I'm sure the Russians had total plans of that sub YEARS ago.  There are really no secrets anymore.  Spies on both sides easily get what they are looking for.  Just look at MAKS.  The Russians openly display their equipment and cockpits.  What secrets?

[Harlikwin]

25 minutes ago, 3WA said:

Lol, the US Government doesn't come after anyone for "guesses".  I doubt if Russia does either.  Their new "Law" is just chutzpa.  Simulators have been doing guesses for YEARS.

If governments cared about sims, ARMA would NEVER have been.  Hell, I remember playing the "super secret" F117 Night Hawk sim back in the 90's.

 

Maybe you missed the bit about the Govt putting a former ED developer in jail over "manuals" a few years back...

 

4 minutes ago, 3WA said:

Yeah, the only time I have ever seen a person convicted of "giving away secrets" was when some idiot sailor on a submarine ( which the US seems to consider the most secret thing we have ) took a photo of a control panel on one of our most advanced submarines.  He was convicted of something or other, and did some jail time, but the case was ridiculed by everyone as overkill and over-reach of the Law.  I'm sure the Russians had total plans of that sub YEARS ago.  There are really no secrets anymore.  Spies on both sides easily get what they are looking for.  Just look at MAKS.  The Russians openly display their equipment and cockpits.  What secrets?

 

Details matter... No one gives a shit if a cockpit has 2 or 3 MFD's tho. But 2 or 3 MFD's don't make a module, its all the "Stuff" on them that matters.

Edited April 22, 2021 by Harlikwin

[Fri13]

3 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

Maybe you missed the bit about the Govt putting a former ED developer in jail over "manuals" a few years back...

 

Yes, but that was already in the normal laws.

People are put in the jail just from having a 175 ml toothpaste or just jaywalking.

 

3 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

Details matter... No one gives a shit if a cockpit has 2 or 3 MFD's tho. But 2 or 3 MFD's don't make a module, its all the "Stuff" on them that matters.

 

It is if you start to spread too sensitive material like missile guidance laws and logic and behavior etc in too high detail.

Like anyone could make a IFF system that is far more useful and realistic than the current one.

 

Like alone doing it based to this kind animation it would become better than we have now, this from the Thales Group. 

 

 

The laws would allow to throw anyone with that information to be put in jail, but it is already so common that it would be just wasting time. 

 

When you sell weapons, systems all over the world, you are just giving more changes for unwanted people to get access to highly sensitive material and information.

Like Turkey has F-35 fighters and S-400 system, wouldn't they test it accurately against each others? You don't need Russia or USA for that... Even china would be willing to "give a hand" for things. 

And I don't see any major politician being arrested and jailed from their war crimes or felonies. Because they are protected.... 

[S. Low]

Were those apaches equipped with stingers?

 

And perhaps I’m wrong but I thought the first shots were b52 cruise missiles to punch a hole in the sam network 

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

19 minutes ago, Relic said:

And perhaps I’m wrong but I thought the first shots were b52 cruise missiles to punch a hole in the sam network

Every book I read about Desert Storm stated that Apaches were the first in (with the help of Pave Lows for navigation), and that they punched a hole on the SAM network for the F-117s to fly through.
Then again, history is always written by the victor, so what is written isn't always what actually happened.

[Harlikwin]

52 minutes ago, Relic said:

Were those apaches equipped with stingers?

 

And perhaps I’m wrong but I thought the first shots were b52 cruise missiles to punch a hole in the sam network 

 

The first shots were weeks before as the SAS and US SF destroyed the entire Iraqi C3I net... Literally, the iraqis couldn't communicate, and when they did it had to be using radio, which was DF'ed and killed, but not before being recorded and decoded since the Iraqis primarly used british built crypto.  

[molevitch]

The Apache discussion thread is somewhere else, I think....

[BioZ]

Just my pinch of salt into this massive topic... If you think about it, in real life MI-8 was designed to carry troops and cargo. Mi-24 was designed as an attack helicopter to support the troops and devastated the enemy infantry. In DCS, IMO, there is no real difference between the Mi-8 and Mi-24. Yes, we can carry up to 8 ATGM's, but that is it. So as I mentioned above, I expect mi-24 to be a great helicopter to learn and fly, but it just seems as it won't bring anything new to DCS. Maybe the ability to multicrew and Petrovich would give it; its own taste.

[IcedVenom]

1 hour ago, BioZ said:

Just my pinch of salt into this massive topic... If you think about it, in real life MI-8 was designed to carry troops and cargo. Mi-24 was designed as an attack helicopter to support the troops and devastated the enemy infantry. In DCS, IMO, there is no real difference between the Mi-8 and Mi-24. Yes, we can carry up to 8 ATGM's, but that is it. So as I mentioned above, I expect mi-24 to be a great helicopter to learn and fly, but it just seems as it won't bring anything new to DCS. Maybe the ability to multicrew and Petrovich would give it; its own taste.

That's implying Mi-24 won't persuade Eagle Dynamics to further develop ground troops in DCS to enhance the helicopter gameplay.

[3WA]

33 minutes ago, IcedVenom said:

That's implying Mi-24 won't persuade Eagle Dynamics to further develop ground troops in DCS to enhance the helicopter gameplay.

Oh, I think all this helicopter development and further interest in the ground will drive to them to much greater things.

[Andurula]

2 hours ago, BioZ said:

I expect mi-24 to be a great helicopter to learn and fly, but it just seems as it won't bring anything new to DCS.

 

I am just happy getting the chance to explore the HIND and what it might and might not be able to do.  I couldn't care less about what it "brings to DCS". 

 

The HIND is a badass helicopter that scared the bejesus out of NATO forces in its day.  Flyilng the HIND sounds like a whole lot of fun.

[Dr.SquirrelBoy12]

On 4/23/2021 at 10:12 AM, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Every book I read about Desert Storm stated that Apaches were the first in (with the help of Pave Lows for navigation), and that they punched a hole on the SAM network for the F-117s to fly through.
Then again, history is always written by the victor, so what is written isn't always what actually happened.

The B-52s launched their cruise missiles first but they took time to fly to their targets. The AH-64s were the first to score kills since the cruise missiles were still flying to their targets when the AH-64s engaged the SAM sites. 

[Lace]

11 minutes ago, Dr.SquirrelBoy12 said:

The B-52s launched their cruise missiles first but they took time to fly to their targets. The AH-64s were the first to score kills since the cruise missiles were still flying to their targets when the AH-64s engaged the SAM sites. 

 

Yes, it was important to maintain the element of surprise.  The Apaches would have had a much tougher time if by the time they arrived at their targets ALCMs were already hitting targets across the rest of Iraq.

 

But this is the Hind thread, no point in discussing what the Apache achieved in ODS, especially given it was the A model, and not the D model DCS is producing.

[Mr.Scar]

5 hours ago, BioZ said:

I expect mi-24 to be a great helicopter to learn and fly, but it just seems as it won't bring anything new to DCS.

  

My question is: What do you understand by adding something new to DCS with a new module?

 

The same question applies to the Mi-24P. My answer to this question is:

 

I want to pilot it, because in the neighbourhood I grew up in,had a base where a few of those were stationed around 10km away from the place i lived in. It was the D variant, but i had free airshows few days per week. The sound of the rotor was unique, the speed, the design, the way it moved. I was able to sit in the cockpit of, i was taken for a joyride in the crew compartment. I fell in love instantly.

 

Belive me, such events left a mark and thus being able to fly it in DCS is a dream come true. And for me, the MI-24 is bringing something new to my experience.  

 

[3WA]

We don't have playable infantry right now ( and really not much in the way of infantry at all ), but to me the Mi-8 is more of a cargo helicopter, where the Mi-24 is like a flying IFV.

So, personally, I do see a difference.

[Morrov]

Same here. My hometown has a helicopter base that flies the Mi-24s (also mostly Ds as far as I know) amongst other things, so I always got to see them both on display and in the air for as long as I remember.

The flight club I attend to today in my current city shares an airport with the military, they also fly Mi-24s (mostly V I think).

 

Getting to know how the Hind works, getting to fly it and "experience" it for myself will be a dream come true, don't really care that it might not be super effective at this point, neither is the Mi-8 in combat scenarios and I still love it to bits.
 

[Lurker]

8 hours ago, BioZ said:

 In DCS, IMO, there is no real difference between the Mi-8 and Mi-24. Yes, we can carry up to 8 ATGM's, but that is it. So as I mentioned above, I expect mi-24 to be a great helicopter to learn and fly, but it just seems as it won't bring anything new to DCS. 

 

You just contradicted yourself in the same sentence. You also conveniently skipped over the fact that the Hind P has a dedicated weapons officer to aim and direct those ATGMs, can carry much more and more variety of ordnance, has an integrated 30mm autocannon that can be devastating to both troops and armor, has a better much better aiming sight and flies much faster and is designed in a way so it doesn't crab along like the Hip, which makes it an extremely stable gun and rocket platform.  

[dfpoor]

We should stop saying the Hind will be ineffective.  If we are playing Fulda Gap, keep in mind the Patton had zero CE protection.  Obviously, the same goes for the M113 and the TOW jeep.  The Bradley is not going to survive ATGM hits.  And the original M1/1985 had half as much armor as a M1A2.  The Hind will do everything an Apache/Cobra/Havoc/Hokum can do, it just won't do it at night.

[Mr.Scar]

1 hour ago, dfpoor said:

We should stop saying the Hind will be ineffective.  If we are playing Fulda Gap, keep in mind the Patton had zero CE protection.  Obviously, the same goes for the M113 and the TOW jeep.  The Bradley is not going to survive ATGM hits.  And the original M1/1985 had half as much armor as a M1A2.  The Hind will do everything an Apache/Cobra/Havoc/Hokum can do, it just won't do it at night.

 

Totally agree. I really would not want to be a tank crewman in that time period and face the Mi-24.

 

Funny small story, concerns the A-10C but i think it applies to the Mi-24 aswell in some degree. My friend was flying the Hog i was in the Su-25T or Ka-50 (i did not own the Hog at that time), doing diffrent stuff to enemy ground forces. Tanks, SPAA, infantry, all was blowing up from different ordnace and the GAU-8. Simple target practice with a certain degree of air defence.

 

Suddenly my friend says

- Boy I almost feel sorry for those guys

- Why? - i asked

- Because I would not like to be in one of those tanks with a A-10, Su-25 or when another ground pounder was in the area.

- And what would you do If you would be in such a situation? - I asked 

 

He answered:

 

If I`d sniff out an gunship or other ground attack aircraft, I would pop the hatch and run like hell to the nearest forest, praying he does not see me on his TV screen.

 

So yeah, the Mi-24 will be far from being ineffective. About the night ops part, he will definetly not be the best, but if ED decides to add the NVG although Mi-24P did not have those, then it will be very interesting. There are also flares. It aint thermals, it aint nvgs, will require a lot of preperation and the targets position will need to be know beforehand, but it might present interesting mission opportunieties at night when the weather is good and visibility conditions are acceptable. 

 

I simply mean, it can be done. 

Edited April 26, 2021 by Mr.Scar

[Fri13]

9 hours ago, dfpoor said:

The Hind will do everything an Apache/Cobra/Havoc/Hokum can do, it just won't do it at night.

 

I think it was said that Mi-24P pilots train for the night combat, using flares as well to illuminate the areas.

In Afghanistan that got ambushers flee away from side of the route when lit up. 

 

This is the same thing as with Su-25, Su-25T that at least can use the SAB-100 illumination bombs for 1-5 min time period and Mi-24/KA-50 etc can use S-8O or S-8OM illumination rockets for less than a minute. 

 

In a pitch black night (or in bad weather at all) I don't think anyone want to be flying Mi-24P at least without NVG.

We have interesting options for performing combat operations in Mi-24P at night, but it requires coordinates cooperation between various units. Like if we could get a troops in contact have flare pistols used properly, mortar teams to launch flares up in the air and so on.

 

 

 

[Fri13]

8 hours ago, Mr.Scar said:

Totally agree. I really would not want to be a tank crewman in that time period and face the Mi-24.

 

That is why the crews train for various basic tactics to hide and stay mobile. You wouldn't be spotting them easily to be engaged than when required to go open.

Tank crews wouldn't want to go inside forests either as it is too difficult to travel and if there is enemy you are just sitting duck for infantry.

And if the enemy artillery or mortars gets information of your location, the hell will get loose.

Once one M1 Abrams commander told that they got surprised by the mortar fire, and he didn't even get to command driver to move, when driver was already pretending to be in a F-1 and put everything he got just to get out of that area, possibly braking few speed records too. 

 

You don't want to be front of the attack helicopter line of attack when it get to know your position as when it launches its rockets, it will be a firework display. As well being vulnerable for sudden hit from MBT at 1-2 km distance or 3-4 km for ATGM that you didn't spot in time. What makes those small helicopters with ATGM so effective that you can get quickly to flank or rear and just get couple missiles simultaneously launched and then vanish.

 

That is why you hide, and you hide so well that you don't get spotted but you have the initiative to take target out first and then roll to cover. 

[Fri13]

12 hours ago, 3WA said:

We don't have playable infantry right now ( and really not much in the way of infantry at all ), but to me the Mi-8 is more of a cargo helicopter, where the Mi-24 is like a flying IFV.

So, personally, I do see a difference.

 

Based to Mil's colleges the Mi-24 was a "VBMP" (Flying IFV) as well: https://youtu.be/JZ5je96v8H8?t=464

And considering how effective the BMP-1 became and fearful, and now you had such flying. 

 

[3WA]

Maybe realistic, but 1960 tech is something I'm not really interested in.

 

Oh well, Apache will Rule the Night.

Edited April 27, 2021 by 3WA

[Mr.Scar]

12 hours ago, Desert Fox said:

Mi-8 has illumination rockets and FAB-100 available, Su-25A does so too (also T variant should?). Employ realistic tactics, problem solved.

 

Exactly. Maybe it is not top notch tech, but still fun.