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Greetings everyone, so I have a question...

 

In DCS world what real purpose will the hind serve? The reason I ask this question is due to the fact that in DCS world combat is mainly oriented around the ground and air vehicles. What was the last time you really tried to support the infantry in DCS? Yes, we may have 4 9M120 against the ground targets, but that's about it. 

In contrast, the upcoming Apache will have much more "space" in DCS with up to 16 hellfires on board and various sensors such as AG radar, Datalink, and multiple self-defense capabilities.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think Mi-24D is a great helicopter, I will certainly pre-order it and probably enjoy learning and flying it.


Edited by BioZ
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You'll have rockets, not only S-8 with HE and HEAT warheads which already can kill most things (except tanks, usually), but bigger ones as well, including S-24 (those can kill a tank or two, a building, concrete bunker...). Later you'll get R-60s, so air won't be safe around the Hind either. 30 mm cannon, while not as effective as GAU-8, still capable of doing some bad things to a lot of vehicle types. Apache "gameplay" will probably be very similar to Ka-50: hover above tree line and launch missiles from a distance. Mi-24 will do strafing (or even bombing) runs at relatively high speeds in addition to launching guided rockets. And infantry support missions can be done, it just requires more planning and editor work.

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First of all you can have 8 missiles not 4. Hind is not Apache and Apache is not Hind.

Your problem with Hind seems like complaining whats the point of Sabre when there is F15. Module is depiction of weapon system from certain time period. Its not there to fill hole in weapon roster or level the playing field. This is not War thunder.

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The Hind will take it's place as the proper gunship helicopter in Cold War scenarios. The KA-50 while cool, came a little bit too late for most realistic cold war scenarios. As such the Hind will fulfill this mission type nicely. All it will require to be employed properly is some mission design. I'm sure there will be a niche that this helicopter will fill nicely.

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1 hour ago, BioZ said:

Greetings everyone, so I have a question...

 

In DCS world what real purpose will the hind serve? The reason I ask this question is due to the fact that in DCS world combat is mainly oriented around the ground and air vehicles. What was the last time you really tried to support the infantry in DCS? Yes, we may have 4 9M120 against the ground targets, but that's about it. 

In contrast, the upcoming Apache will have much more "space" in DCS with up to 16 hellfires on board and various sensors such as AG radar, Datalink, and multiple self-defense capabilities.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think Mi-24D is a great helicopter, I will certainly pre-order it and probably enjoy learning and flying it.

 

 

There are many places where the Mi-24P can say a thing of two. On top of my mind:

  • Setting: less modern scenarios, with dozens of examples. From counter-insurgency ops similar to the Russo-Afghan war, to the more conventional Iran-Iraq war, just to name two example. No one is argues about the performance of the MiG-15 compared to the F/A-18C. This is the same situation on rotary wings.
  • Scope: stop flying in arcade server where another dozen of tank battalions are wiped every 5 minutes. In reality there are plenty of other targets.
    Unfortunately atm the rockets' area damage is not as effective as a decade ago, but they do the trick vs soft or non-armoured vehicles;
  • Depth: add logistics and supplies with costs and losses. Combined with the previous point, would you really use a hellfire vs a truck when you know your supplies are limited? S-8 or other rockets instead are really cheap in comparison!
  • Variety/Fun: in servers where infantry units can be picked up and placed around, you have this possibility. Imagine deploying teams with MANPADs close to your location to cover you.

I'm sure there are many other examples, but I hope you got my point.

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Karon said:

 

There are many places where the Mi-24P can say a thing of two. On top of my mind:

  • Setting: less modern scenarios, with dozens of examples. From counter-insurgency ops similar to the Russo-Afghan war, to the more conventional Iran-Iraq war, just to name two example. No one is argues about the performance of the MiG-15 compared to the F/A-18C. This is the same situation on rotary wings.
  • Scope: stop flying in arcade server where another dozen of tank battalions are wiped every 5 minutes. In reality there are plenty of other targets.
    Unfortunately atm the rockets' area damage is not as effective as a decade ago, but they do the trick vs soft or non-armoured vehicles;
  • Depth: add logistics and supplies with costs and losses. Combined with the previous point, would you really use a hellfire vs a truck when you know your supplies are limited? S-8 or other rockets instead are really cheap in comparison!
  • Variety/Fun: in servers where infantry units can be picked up and placed around, you have this possibility. Imagine deploying teams with MANPADs close to your location to cover you.

I'm sure there are many other examples, but I hope you got my point.

 I do see your point here, and yes surely there is a lot of potential for fun and of course variety. I have tried using Mi-8 and Hue just a week ago on 2 mainstream servers to setup some Manpads. The issue that I faced is that with all those AWACS flying 24/7, some random F-18/16 just spams AIM-120C on you as soon as you move 1 micrometer away from the Air Base. Servers that have Cold War era theme are usually unpopular. I personally love multiplayer, but more of a hardcore multiplayer. If you look at the most popular servers those are usually the ones where you; take off -> spam aim-120 -> die -> repeat. 


Edited by BioZ
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I play on GaW often and I can't wait to be able to capture airfields with a single helicopter in one trip. Also if the Hind has a sight like the Su-25A, then the S-8 will be more than capable of killing anything that isn't AA.

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2 hours ago, Apok said:

First of all you can have 8 missiles not 4. Hind is not Apache and Apache is not Hind.

Your problem with Hind seems like complaining whats the point of Sabre when there is F15. Module is depiction of weapon system from certain time period. Its not there to fill hole in weapon roster or level the playing field. This is not War thunder.

 

Absolutely this.

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1 hour ago, BioZ said:

...  the most popular servers those are usually the ones where you; take off -> spam aim-120 -> die -> repeat. 

 

and people find Multiplayer fun? 🙄 .. I'd rather keep flying by myself.

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3 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

and people find Multiplayer fun? 🙄 .. I'd rather keep flying by myself.

 

I have to agree.

 

Taking off, flying like a smaller, faster airliner and hitting the weapon release/trigger a few times and buggering off sounds like something that would get pretty boring pretty quickly. 


Edited by Northstar98
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@Rudel_chw@Northstar98that's called Airquake, usually. On the other hand, there are many simulative groups that organize realistic campaigns that take into account losses and logistics, realistic ROE, intelligence based on VID and realistic BDA. Missions where controllers are humans, so proficiency, collaboration and coordination between different assets is fundamental. There's nothing even remotely close in Single player. Although often PvE vs scripted or controlled AI, even PvP played with this mindset can be a lot of fun, as the redfor/opfor plays realistically, following their tasking and giving importance to their life.

You should try at least once 🙂

 

@BioZ as I said to our two friends above, if you don't like airquake bin it and look for a more simulative group. Join and leave until you find what you are looking for.

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Problems are the current game style. The future dynamic campaign should shake things up a lot. 

 

We do need more infantry, like for every MBT there should be 300 soldiers on the ground.

 

But DCS at the moment doesn't model infantry. We don't have proper infantry benefits like capabilities to hide, as vehicles has all seeing 360° vision and reaction times faster than any human from such ranges that are impossible.

 

This puts all ground units and helicopters in disadvantage. The air units has upper hand with unrealistic radars and targeting pods.

Throw some SAM systems and they are good only as target practice and as speed bump.

 

These puts helicopters in serious disadvantage as main targets to them are infantry, some transport vehicles for infantry and then maybe some tanks somewhere if opportunity appears. But mainly it is more against BTR-60 than anything else armored.

 

But we don't have that. We don't have infantry clashing for hours/days to situation where shots are exchanged but nothing happens, until helicopter comes to shake things around and break the tie.

 

We don't have concealment and cover for infantry as should. Same is for vehicles and even for helicopters. 

 

And as long there is a possibility for a random guy flying in hornet or viper around like on sunday drive, the war doesn't work.

There should be high threat and risks to fly around, something that isn't modeled in air quake servers.

 

A Hind will be eaten alive even if it has R-60 as it will be so easily spotted and engaged. 

And if there is no ground war to support, Hind offers little to warfare.

 

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I stoped playing airquake servers the moment I started joining Cold war ones. Hind will fit like glove there. Landing troops near enemy and then procede to engage it. You usually ain't downed in a first pass from a fighter. Its easier to find them then for them to find you. R60s on Hind will make lot of trouble for fighters.

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Bruh it has 8x ATGM's and will get R-60M's. What do you mean it's got no purpose? Mi-8 is less capable than the Hind and it fits perfectly into DCS. Sometimes it just feels like BLUFOR Nato players have gotten lobotomies they are so braindead.

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Todays gamers are focused on "metas". This post is predicated on the assumption that the Hind has to exist along side 4th generation fighters in public servers. Once you stop playing public servers with "module soup" and overly basic designs, you can fly the Hind without a sense of fear! Also sad were two long time and experienced forum members describing multiplayer as something they dont want to play.

The golden parts of multiplayer are hidden behind organised groups. Public multiplayer, where people assume the best parts of it live, is where all the people who dont want to invest time into group play live and run around, and I'm grateful for those server admins for capturing and containing these folks!

Take your Hind, with your friends and play against the computer in a well made coop/restricted pvp environment and stop being a victim of other peoples poor adminsitration skills or popular "metas". No reason to accept anything else.

 

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1 minute ago, Pikey said:

Todays gamers are focused on "metas". This post is predicated on the assumption that the Hind has to exist along side 4th generation fighters in public servers. Once you stop playing public servers with "module soup" and overly basic designs, you can fly the Hind without a sense of fear! Also sad were two long time and experienced forum members describing multiplayer as something they dont want to play.

The golden parts of multiplayer are hidden behind organised groups. Public multiplayer, where people assume the best parts of it live, is where all the people who dont want to invest time into group play live and run around, and I'm grateful for those server admins for capturing and containing these folks!

Take your Hind, with your friends and play against the computer in a well made coop/restricted pvp environment and stop being a victim of other peoples poor adminsitration skills or popular "metas". No reason to accept anything else.

 

The Hind will also fit perfectly into cold war servers which are what I prefer anyways. With a potential future F-4 and MiG-23 module, cold war servers will see a huge increase in players!


Edited by IcedVenom
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2 hours ago, Lucas_From_Hell said:

Just saying, a Mi-24 doing hit-and-run attacks at 300km/h is a lot more survivable than a static glasshouse hovering near some trees waiting to eat a BMP-2 missile or Igla.

Yes but "Static Glasshouse" has some great self-defense measures, including against IR missles and doesn't need to get into the AAA range. 

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This topic reminds me an important fact about DCS, we have different types o players with different ways to enjoy DCS. I could list 3 types of players:

 

- (Type 1): Those who like the competition, that only play public multiplayer servers trying to get the highest score, destroying 16 tanks in a round or becoming "ace" in a single flight. (They usually fly only the most modern and "capable" aircrafts).

 

- (Type 2): Those how enjoy the pleasures of a cold start, procedures, configuration, calibration, a good mission with a well done briefing, but hate the chaotic and unrealistic environment of multiplayer servers, being shot down just 5 mins after spending 20 mins preparing for takeoff, so they only play singleplayer. (They fly whatever the mission has or they want, because who cares? they play alone)

 

- (Type 3): Those how know that the best way to fly DCS is having a human RIO or wingman or be part of an squadron, where communication, coordination and strategy are key to complete the mission, they use to play coop missions in private servers. (They fly everything, because the weaknesses of an aircraft are compensated by the strengths of the others)

 

Depending of how you play DCS, you might think that an aircraft is very useful or totally useless. The Mi-24 can be a deadly and useful aircraft in a modern combat scenario with the right mission for that kind of aircraft, with a good intel/briefing and support. You are not supposed to send a Hind to the same mission with F-15/F-18/SU-27 deep inside enemy lines surrounded by powerful anti-air systems and enemy fighters, that is a fact in real live and should also be in a combat simulator, but all we know how most of the multiplayers servers are...

 

Espectativa2.jpg

 

I know that there are good designers who make an effort to make realistic and challenging multiplayer missions and campaigns that you can play in public servers but i think it is up to ED (they'r who have the tools) to offer a dynamic multiplayer campaign, well designed for most of modules we have in DCS, that's an opportunity to players type 1, 2 and 3 meet together some times.


Edited by SspectrumM
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DCS has enough early/mid cold-war units to create an environment in which the hind can be survivable and effective, but obviously this will depend on mission makers and server operators

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5 hours ago, BioZ said:

Yes but "Static Glasshouse" has some great self-defense measures, including against IR missles and doesn't need to get into the AAA range. 

 

BMP-2 missile is SACLOS - and you're not doing anything against that apart from hiding or trying to dodge it. And the Pantsir S1 we're getting should have the range.

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23 hours ago, BioZ said:

The issue that I faced is that with all those AWACS flying 24/7, some random F-18/16 just spams AIM-120C on you as soon as you move 1 micrometer away from the Air Base. Servers that have Cold War era theme are usually unpopular. I personally love multiplayer, but more of a hardcore multiplayer. If you look at the most popular servers those are usually the ones where you; take off -> spam aim-120 -> die -> repeat. 

 

With nearly all modules developed for DCS being Cold War aircrafts like Mi-24 Hind, Mirage F.1, A-7E Corsair II, A-6E Intruder, MiG-23MLA, Bo-105, Sea Harrier, MiG-29A, F-4E, F-8J Crusader etc. + current Cold War MiG-21bis, Viggen, F-14 Tomcat, F-5E, Huey, L-39, MiG-19, Gazelle, C-101 and most of FC3 planes like A-10A, F-15C, Su-25A, Su-27 etc.

- i can see a Cold War servers becoming extremely popular soon, with engaging skill based close air and ground combat instead of, as you said, "take off -> spam aim-120 -> die -> repeat."

 

That's why I can see a bright future for all this modules including Hind.


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With antitank-missiles, it may be effective, but still challenging coz of the periscope-sight, time & high-speed to aim, according to the lead developer PilotMi8.

 

With the current splash-fragmentation damage the rockets won't bring much in terms of semi-realistic combat scenarios.

 

Right now DCS is only semi-realistic with precision weapons:

In terms of combat effectiveness even against light-armored enemies I'm setting my expectations very low.

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4 hours ago, CoBlue said:

With antitank-missiles, it may be effective, but still challenging coz of the periscope-sight, time & high-speed to aim, according to the lead developer PilotMi8.

 

With the current splash-fragmentation damage the rockets won't bring much in terms of semi-realistic combat scenarios.

 

Right now DCS is only semi-realistic with precision weapons:

In terms of combat effectiveness even against light-armored enemies I'm setting my expectations very low.

 

I apologize, I don't understand your point here. The entire reason for precision armor penetration weapons is because "splash damage" doesn't do anything to armor. Or did I miss something in historical weapons development? If I'm wrong about splash damage in real life then I welcome some education, but my understanding is you need penetrating warheads specifically because a shockwave with small frag isn't going to do anything to armor.

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