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Let's say that the mission starts at 5:00 AM in Syria. We have Hornets and Vipers in the mission in MP server. After the ramp start, in multiplayer we confirmed that the F/A-18C shows the correct time as; let's say 5:13. The Viper on the other hand shows as (UTC 2:13 - minus the time spent without electric). Showing the time in UTC is acceptable. But each aircraft will startup in different seconds or minutes, thus showing the wrong time for each jet.

 

So the Hornets took off in exact time, while the Vipers were thinking there is still 2 more minutes until the takeoff time. Because the Vipers got their generators on after ~2 minutes. We confirmed this but currently I have no proof. Please investigate this and let me know if you really need some sort of video to verify this.

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Well known, hence why we do a time hack prior to taxi for Viper Flight. You could also have the mission commander call a time back over the radio

 

For real, watches are hacked at the brief, then jets set with watch time 


Edited by Florence201

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4 hours ago, Florence201 said:

Well known, hence why we do a time hack prior to taxi for Viper Flight. You could also have the mission commander call a time back over the radio

 

For real, watches are hacked at the brief, then jets set with watch time 

 

I wonder why the Viper can't use GPS time. 

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The DCS F-16 does have GPS-INS and the system time is set (by default) by GPS time. Which source for time (GPS or manual) and setting the manual time is done through the TIME page.

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1 hour ago, Florence201 said:

Because the model we have has an INS, hence why you align it 

Yes, but having to align an INS has nothing to do with the presence or absence of GPS.  GPS is a source of position and time while INS alignment (aka gyrocompassing) finds the attitude by measuring Earth rotation. 

28 minutes ago, Frederf said:

The DCS F-16 does have GPS-INS and the system time is set (by default) by GPS time. Which source for time (GPS or manual) and setting the manual time is done through the TIME page.

So by the OP's issue with timing mismatch, does that mean the default is manual? 


Edited by Machalot

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It makes sense to have manual correction for the time settings. But if the jet can sync with the satellites automatically, then we should have this already. I see no point in setting the time manually in every flight. There is no such operation in real-life ramp start procedure that I got from own sources. Let's wait for ED to comment on this; why they made it so, or are they gonna do further work on this.

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On 3/27/2021 at 3:44 AM, Florence201 said:

Because the model we have has an INS, hence why you align it 

 

Just as background information:
Every modern fighter jet will have INS at the core of it. You can correct for drift using GPS, absolutely, but worst case, GPS is either toast due to anti-sat-weapons or it's being jammed or your gps receiver refuses to work for whatever reason.

 

Think of GPS only as one source that can keep accuracy up.

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I will look into it, but I need evidence. I have asked the team and we will be asking our SME's

 

thanks

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@BIGNEWY

 

 

The time that is passed without electricity during startup causes shift in system time. Here I boosted the time on purpose before the ramp start and the result is ~5min shift.

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Hi,

 

I have made a report for the team but we are still looking for evidence for the synchronisation of time.

 

thanks

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3 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Hi,

 

I have made a report for the team but we are still looking for evidence for the synchronisation of time.

 

thanks

Video was not enough? How can I help more? By evidence, do you mean that the real F-16 time sync process?

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3 minutes ago, Terzi said:

Video was not enough? How can I help more? By evidence, do you mean that the real F-16 time sync process?

 

The video was fine to show the issue, the problem is finding the correct information on how it is actually modelled in real life and how it ties into the other system.

 

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15 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

 

The video was fine to show the issue, the problem is finding the correct information on how it is actually modelled in real life and how it ties into the other system.

 

I was reading the HAF document. It is really so that ED model was right to pause the clock without power on the FCC and it will continue from the last known time when the power is back on. (section 1-303 to 1-306) This is very nice when there is no GPS signal.

 

1-253:

"When the receiver has valid cryptokeys loaded and is tracking four satellites, accurate position, velocity and time data are provided to the aircraft ...."

 

1-255:

"The GPS provides:

...

...

Time of day

GPS data is also used in have-quick syncronization"

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Since time-input to L16 or VHF, UHF radios aren't modeled system time is the only affected system I know of. Anything GPS position related (DTC load of crypto keys, PPS v SPS, blah blah) is a separate issue. GPS is on A MUX 1533 data and non-ess AC 1 power. Without UFC GPS functions as last left.

 

The entirety of interaction would be DED pages TIME and CRUS DTOS. System time (and date) initializes on power up to use GPS time when it comes online so it requires flipping the GPS switch and probably wait a brief time (initialization 4s?). TIME page has "GPS" label. Label is blanked when GPS not supplying system time (off, not ready yet, manually deselected). Deselection is by SEQ when on the TIME page or by manual entry of system time in CRUS DTOS page. When GPS is deselected then manual time/date entry on TIME page is allowed. I don't see any mention of how to get system time back on GPS source although it might be possible.

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On 4/1/2021 at 12:54 AM, Frederf said:

The entirety of interaction would be DED pages TIME and CRUS DTOS. System time (and date) initializes on power up to use GPS time when it comes online so it requires flipping the GPS switch and probably wait a brief time (initialization 4s?). TIME page has "GPS" label. Label is blanked when GPS not supplying system time (off, not ready yet, manually deselected). Deselection is by SEQ when on the TIME page or by manual entry of system time in CRUS DTOS page. When GPS is deselected then manual time/date entry on TIME page is allowed. I don't see any mention of how to get system time back on GPS source although it might be possible.

In the HAF -1 under the Have Quick section it says that it takes 30-45 seconds from powering the EGI until satellite acquisition. GPS TOD will be entered automatically when contact has been established with a satellite and it will say GPS SYSTEM instead of just SYSTEM in the DED TIME page. It also says that GPS TOD should be manually updated again when you have a GPS HIGH horizontal accuracy status (alt. <300 ft) or when you have confirmed that your EGI is tracking four satellites at once to make sure your system time is accurate. However, it doesn't specify how to actually update the GPS time. I'll have to see if I can find that somewhere.

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, WHOGX5 said:

It also says that GPS TOD should be manually updated again when you have a GPS HIGH horizontal accuracy status (alt. <300 ft) or when you have confirmed that your EGI is tracking four satellites at once to make sure your system time is accurate. However, it doesn't specify how to actually update the GPS time. I'll have to see if I can find that somewhere.

I assume "updated manually" in this case doesn't mean type in the time, but more likely to press a button to initiate a time sync of system time with GPS time. 

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Note that the PXIII has MMC and EGI while the DCS Viper has MMC and INS-GPS and PXII has FCC and INS-GPS. Which of the PXIII or PXII manuals most closely resembles the DCS variant in operation is a bit of a mystery to me. I don't know if DCS and PXIII both having MMC (but differing on EGI) or DCS and PXII both having INS-GPS (but differing on MMC) is more significant here.

 

Usually "TOD" is reserved for HQ radio discussion. Make sure that the instruction to re-sync with EGI TOD is relevant to system time and not HQ. Everything I read in HAF -1s is about getting another HQ TOD manually, not system time. My understanding is that system time will wait indefinitely until GPS time is on bus and so this would be automatic.  I can't find if or how the pilot manually or system automatically would source GPS as system time if it was decoupled. I'm guessing it's using SEQ on the DED TIME page (same as turning it off) but that's a guess.

 

Getting a positional fix with GPS is not the same as getting GPS time. Theoretically one can get GPS time (of some accuracy) from a single satellite. The system might wait for a full spatial track before releasing GPS time on the bus or it might be earlier. If I had to guess I would say it waits for GPS nav fix before releasing time on bus.

 

 

 

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17 hours ago, Machalot said:

I assume "updated manually" in this case doesn't mean type in the time, but more likely to press a button to initiate a time sync of system time with GPS time. 

 

No. The TOD is only to sync all the "player's" HQII cryptos. It can be done by an AWACS, by GPS, or manually (tone on UHF to sync all radios of all players).

The F-16 has an internal clock (drifting slowly as any clock) that can be set manually on the "hack" time. The system clock is permanently synchronized on GPS Time clock when GPS are available.

 

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