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Landing Patterns: Where to Make the Break and CRPs and be on Slope?


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When searching for where to make the break in the shore landing pattern I found some sources say you do it over the spot you intend to land, others say midfield, others say at the numbers, and others do it upwind beyond the numbers.

 

So which is correct?  Or does it depend on published procedures at that particular airbase?

 

Also, if you look at the charts app/dep visual operation charts for airbases without a TACAN, how do you know where the CRPs are?  Look at Mozdok for example (in the default kneeboard files or here on the very last page http://server.3rd-wing.net/public/Manuels DCS/DCS_VAD_Charts_FC3.pdf).  There is no TACAN to measure where the CRPs are.  There is simply a bearing but some of those are from a CRP that also has no bearing.

 

I tried using the box in the corner that gives coordinates for CRPs, but when I punched in the coordinates these do not seem to coincide with the ones in the chart.

 

Finally, say you are in Navy aircraft so there is no glideslope available to you on approach, or the airbase doesn't have an ILS.  How do you know what alititude you should be at at what DME?  What about if there is no TACAN to get DME?  I recall someone once posted a formula that took range and converted it to altitude on approach but I don't recall what that is and searches didn't turn anything up.  Anyone know?

 

Thanks.

 

v6,

boNes


Edited by bonesvf103
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"Also, I would prefer a back seater over the extra gas any day. I would have 80 pounds of flesh to eat and a pair of glasses to start a fire." --F/A-18 Hornet pilot

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No, THANK YOU for making this thread. I think this is much more interesting than a *certain* topic overwhelming the forum tonight. I'm also a big fan of navigation (I come from civilian sims) so I'll try to do my best to help.

2 hours ago, bonesvf103 said:

So which is correct?  Or does it depend on published procedures at that particular airbase?

I think it depends on the procedures for the air base. ATC may also give you instructions, or at uncontrolled fields you will time the break in reference to the traffic you're following (to keep spacing).

 

It's good you chose a specific airport as an example, as it allows for more detailed answers.

2 hours ago, bonesvf103 said:

but when I punched in the coordinates these do not seem to coincide with the ones in the chart.

You probably made a data entry error, or it could be a chart error. When I've performed this procedure the positions have matched. Make sure you're using the correct coordinate units.

 

2 hours ago, bonesvf103 said:

Look at Mozdok for example...how do you know where the CRPs are?

The chart is titled "Visual Operation Chart." This means the procedures flown are visual in nature. You use visual references (combined with electronic aids if available) to navigate. Lets clarify on this example.

"CRP West" is at the end of a stream running generally east-to-west north of Mozdok. Along the stream, west of the village of Uvarovskoye are two settlements at the end of the stream. You would identify this stream visually and the related population areas. Use their shapes, direction, and relative positions to identify them. CRP West is just north east of that little settlement at the end of the stream.

"CRP North" is along that same stream, to the east of Russkoye, at the 90° intersection with another stream.

"CRP East" is on the western edge of that lake/reservoir with the unique shape. It's along a road which leads east out of Mozdok city and parallels the main river to its south.

"CRP South" is on the main river, southwest of Mozdok, and just south of Pavlodolskya. Look at the bends that the river makes. See the three islands? Your CRP is on the east island.

 

The "Initial" CRP's are easy to locate. They are just on the final for the appropriate runway. If you fly the heading from the entry CRP and turn final you should be in a position you can call "good enough." I'd say correct for wind drift if it's excessive.

 

2 hours ago, bonesvf103 said:

How do you know what alititude you should be at at what DME?

The *correct* answer is to use a published procedure for these answers. Be at the altitudes it instructs, and maintain them until the DME readings it instructs. But I accept that's not possible for airports in the Caucasus which don't have procedures you can use. Outside of descent from cruise, and assuming you are in visual conditions, judge altitude and distance visually. You can fly in a circle to loose altitude if you realize you are just too high.

 

2 hours ago, bonesvf103 said:

I recall someone once posted a formula that took range and converted it to altitude on approach but I don't recall what that is and searches didn't turn anything up.  Anyone know?

Yes, it's called the "Three to One" rule. For every 1,000ft of altitude you want to loose, you should plan 3nm of distance. If I do a quick conversion, plan 2km for every 100m.

 

Refreshing to see a fellow poster that actually wants to try increasing realism and practice skills in their combat flight simulator....

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Finally, say you are in Navy aircraft so there is no glideslope available to you on approach, or the airbase doesn't have an ILS.  How do you know what alititude you should be at at what DME?  What about if there is no TACAN to get DME?  I recall someone once posted a formula that took range and converted it to altitude on approach but I don't recall what that is and searches didn't turn anything up.  Anyone know?


If you’re referring to in VMC for a visual approach, a simple way is if it’s a modern fighter that has a velocity vector indicator/flight path marker on the HUD is to be aligned with the runway and have the aircraft symbol be overlapping the runway touchdown point and around -3 degrees on the pitch ladder. A simple way to know if you are to shallow or steep is to put the symbol over the touchdown point, what angle are you at? 2 degrees? A bit shallow, arrest your descent a bit. 4 degrees? Increase rate of descent a bit. Of course you would be on speed as well with the gear and flaps down. You can use this technique with any jet that has this tech on board.

Also like someone else mentioned, I think you’re referring to the three to one rule. Another way to think of it, if you have the DME from the airport, for every mile, you should be 300’. For example, 5 mile final would be roughly 1500’ above field elevation. 3 miles= 900’, etc. There will be some variation though, since most distance measuring isn’t right at the runway in DCS, unless you place a waypoint right at the runway.


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Break position is per regulation, or per SOP. Just do it how you like. 

 

CRPs are purely visual. You're supposed to look outside and recognize visual marks on the ground.

 

TACAN approach is simple, select inbound radial, start at 3000ft above terrain, 10DME out, and place FPA at -3 degrees on hud. You should lose 300ft every 1DME, so make crosschecks at every 1DME, and correct if necessary. System minima should be 250ft above ground so do not fly bellow that if you do not see runway. When deciding inbound radial, keep in mind F10 map gives you "true course". You need to convert it to magnetic. One more thing, TACANs usually are not in runway axis, so you can add degree or two to make your approach slightly offset to give you better angle for visual maneuver once you are visual. For example, Senaki true course is 095, magnetic is 089, I would fly on inbound course 090 (radial 270).


Edited by =4c=Nikola
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Hi again RandomToten,

 

Thanks so much for the warm reception to my post, and for the great answers.  IRL I'm a private pilot so I really like to try to keep it real, as I did in FSX, I would like to do in DCS since DCS has pretty much all the navaid tools and such for proper real life navigation and pattern.  Blowing stuff up in DCS is fun, no doubt, but I also find just as much pleasure in admin stuff like flying cross countries, doing night approaches, doing instrument approaches per published charts, etc.

 

Thanks to your explanation I just did a visual approach chart to Gaudata (page 12) and made what was probably one of my best landings in the Tomcat there.

 

Your answers were so detailed it really clarified things.  I was south of Gaudata so I made my way west to the entry/exit west CRP.  There I saw the peninsula jutting out into the sea near Pitsunda, so I headed there.  As I got close, I saw the lighthouse that as indicated in the chart, so I flew over it on a heading if 119 while descending to 2100 since the chart says app/dep max 2100.

 

I flew 119 until I could see the end if RWY 33 and began my turn to the left to intercept the final approach heading, leaving airspeed at 350-400 knots with wings back at 68 deg.  I flew up the runway and made my break at 800 ft AGL to the right per the chart, holding altitude and popping speedbrakes.  At 300 KIAS I put the wings in auto mode and at 250 KIAS dropped the gear, then 225 KIAS and wings level, dropped the flaps and DLC.  Flew the rest of the right hand traffic down to the runway.

 

Sound about right?

 

So I take it the blue solid lines are approach vectors while red dotted lines are departure vectors.  The dashed blue line is the airbase airspace (kind of like Class D airspace in civilian flight).  What is D(HX) 2600/GND?  Is that airbase class D from ground to 2600 MSL?  What is the D(HX) exactly?

 

Thanks to the others who also posted to help.  Three to one rule, that was it!  It's hard to Google something like that when you can't remember what it was called.  Eagle7907 those were some good points to bring up, especially the DCS references.

 

Nikola, also great reminder that F10 map gives true course so you have to apply magnetic deviation and WCA.    Great details on the TACAN approach.  Reminds me of a VOR-A approach to some extent.

 

Thanks again, all!

 

v6,

boNes

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9 hours ago, bonesvf103 said:

What is D(HX) 2600/GND?  Is that airbase class D from ground to 2600 MSL?  What is the D(HX) exactly?

 

Yea, it's CTR class D airspace from ground to 2600ft AMSL. CTRs are usually class D, but depending on local legislation they can be C (like in Georgia IRL) as well. (HX) means working hours are not specified - not relevant for DCS but it's nice immersion detail.


Edited by =4c=Nikola
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OK, thanks for the info!

 

v6,

boNes

"Also, I would prefer a back seater over the extra gas any day. I would have 80 pounds of flesh to eat and a pair of glasses to start a fire." --F/A-18 Hornet pilot

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20 hours ago, bonesvf103 said:

Thanks to your explanation I just did a visual approach chart to Gaudata (page 12) and made what was probably one of my best landings in the Tomcat there.

Thank you for the kind words. I'm glad you had such a good experience with the explanation.

 

20 hours ago, bonesvf103 said:

Sound about right?

I don't fly the Tomcat, so I can't comment on the specific aircraft procedures like speed and configuration. But otherwise it does sound correct, yes. I'd only like to make one little correction.

The charts you've posted a link to, and which depicts the 119° Hdg after the WEST ENTRY CRP, are for the Flaming Cliffs 3 series of modules. If you look at the top of the chart you referenced, you'll see the remark, "all Tracks = TN." I don't know if you can set up the F-14 to indicate "true" directions, but that is the indicating system for FC3 aircraft, not DCS level modules which almost always reference "magnetic heading."

 

The correctly oriented charts are in the kneeboard for each module, and I would suspect you would be using one which is noted "all Track = MN." You can also look at the general information/legend for the linked charts to learn more about the symbols, airspace depictions, and an explanation of what the charts are, where the come from, and how they should be used.

 

Just a quick note on why I add quotes around "true," and "magnetic." In DCS the earth is flat. The simulation doesn't correctly reference either the True North Pole, or the Magnetic North Pole. But for the type of flying this is it's easy to conceptually understand what's going on by calling the different directions "True" and "Magnetic." Conceptually, I consider what the simulator is doing a form of grid navigation, which is a technique used in the arctics where the meridians converge. I think the accurate name would be Grid North, but True North is a lot easier to understand and you won't notice the difference unless you get deeper into navigation.


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