not planned Easy mode AAR

[SharpeXB]

15 minutes ago, shagrat said:

Did you notice what I and Fri13 actually asked for as as good solution? A magnetic tether, that nudges you in the final position, if you are close enough to a good position, already and maybe a slider to adjust the "contact" box for the basket/boom.

Not "the plane flying itself". A HELP to get AAR done, that you can gradually dial down, when you get better at approach and station keeping.

But let's say they implement an auto AAR client Option. Would you think you notice if it is the player flying the refueling or the AI autopiloting the plane? I mean the AI refuels on the same tanker, already...

Well BN just said ED isn’t going to do this so it’s all academic now. But “help” is basically flying the plane for you really. And as a training aid this would just screw you up in trying to get your reflexes attuned. What you need to do is spend enough hours doing this that your reactions predict or anticipate what the aircraft is going to do. Not just react to it. Like riding a bicycle. Any artificial helper mechanic is just going to mess with that and inhibit your learning. 

17 minutes ago, shagrat said:

Soooo, assisted refueling makes the fuel flow faster???!!! Who asked for that? Grabbing straws now?

This gets more and more ridiculous.

So to sum it up: it's about a couple dozen testosterone flooded guys not wanting anyone else to step on their ego?

Making the fuel flow faster has actually been suggested too. Again this subject is kinda done now. 

[Tippis]

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Well BN just said ED isn’t going to do this

That's not what he actually said, if you bothered to read it…

 

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

And as a training aid this would just screw you up in trying to get your reflexes attuned.

Even if it did, and you're going to have to work verrrrrry hard to prove this latest fantasy of yours, it doesn't really matter since it would help with many of the important parts that you keep saying are important. If you could actually argue why this invention was true, you might have something to bring to the discussion for once, but as it is, this is just you moving the goalposts because everything you've tried so far has been utterly demolished.

 

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

What you need to do is spend enough hours doing this that your reactions predict or anticipate what the aircraft is going to do. Not just react to it. Like riding a bicycle.

That's not actually what the trick is to riding a bike…

 

 

[draconus]

Anyone who did AAR is proud of it at first as it's great to feel the achievement. But it quickly gets to normal and you move on to more difficult tasks. It has nothing to do with ego and the guys gladly share the knowledge and videos for anyone willing to learn.

Imo any potential assist/helper/cheat allowance in MP should be clearly stated in server info and should be able to be filtered on the list.

[Tippis]

1 minute ago, draconus said:

Imo any potential assist/helper/cheat allowance in MP should be clearly stated in server info and should be able to be filtered on the list.

Which ones of the myriad already available in the game would be on that list?

And as shagrat points out, how would the server even known?

[Northstar98]

3 hours ago, Gronank said:

This thread is in my estimation completely off the rails.

 

Yes it has. Oh well, fun though! 

 

Quote

I am sympathetic towards anyone who struggles with AAR and become excluded because of it, but asking for convoluted helper mechanics is the wrong way to go.

 

A far more practical solution would be to simply add a method in the script API to set fuel state on aircraft. Then mission designers get to choose how to deal with players who struggle. Maybe prompt "You've been loitering around this tanker for 5 minutes and are still running on fumes, do you wish to have your tanks filled so you get on with things", or something else, depending on preference.

 

That's basically the crux of what the OP was preferably asking for - define a zone around the tanker (you can make it circular or have it be more of allowable error behind the boom/drogue in a cone shape or something), and when somebody is in the zone, then after a short period of time have fuel transfer at some predefined rate to those wishing to take fuel.

 

It really isn't that difficult - the only thing we're missing is a triggerable action to transfer fuel in the triggerable actions, everything else we can already do.

 

Heck, you can even tailor this as desired to make it harder or easier, and you could have it for a custom radio menu item, so people who don't want to do it this way can still do so.

 

Quote

There are only upsides

• Empowers mission designers to create the experiences they want for all kinds of players
• There's still a point in learning AAR
• Easy to implement (There are likely reasons it is not trivial, but it is most certainly simpler than building "automagically fly the plane" functionality for every module with AAR capability)

 

Exactly.

Edited March 28, 2021 by Northstar98

[Exorcet]

38 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Well BN just said ED isn’t going to do this so it’s all academic now. But “help” is basically flying the plane for you really. And as a training aid this would just screw you up in trying to get your reflexes attuned.

Except that as has already been pointed out, AAR is not necessary in game. People don't have to learn it, so whether or not the training aid encourages learning doesn't even matter. This still isn't a reason to keep it out of the sim. And it's not like training aids that would assist with learning haven't been mentioned a thousand times already. As have ways of letting servers disable the option (ie if it's done via ME).

[corvus5624]

3 hours ago, Gronank said:

This thread is in my estimation completely off the rails.

 

I am sympathetic towards anyone who struggles with AAR and become excluded because of it, but asking for convoluted helper mechanics is the wrong way to go.

 

A far more practical solution would be to simply add a method in the script API to set fuel state on aircraft. Then mission designers get to choose how to deal with players who struggle. Maybe prompt "You've been loitering around this tanker for 5 minutes and are still running on fumes, do you wish to have your tanks filled so you get on with things", or something else, depending on preference.

 

There are only upsides

• Empowers mission designers to create the experiences they want for all kinds of players
• There's still a point in learning AAR
• Easy to implement (There are likely reasons it is not trivial, but it is most certainly simpler than building "automagically fly the plane" functionality for every module with AAR capability)

Yeah, if you can't refuel, you won't see your plane refuel. But really, that experience isn't worth much when it isn't earned and you still get to participate.

 

I completely agree with you. You know, there is a certain "sightseeing simulator" that simply allows you to change fuel state mid-flight. Enabling such a fuel menu near a tanker would be a nice idea. AAR is all good and fun when you succeed, but boy, it can be frustrating as well. An auto refuel option, or whatever you would call it, would certainly enable longer missions for me.

[Mars Exulte]

15 hours ago, Tippis said:

It wouldn't be so bad if the nay-sayers had something resembling an argument to offer rather than the infinite amount of nonsense you predicted. 

  Yeah, silly us, expecting people to learn n' stuff. Totally unreasonable and illogical in this day n' age.

[Tippis]

2 minutes ago, Mars Exulte said:

  Yeah, silly us, expecting people to learn n' stuff.

So why this uproar and desperate derailing of a feature that will help people learn n' stuff? Because that is indeed pretty illogical.

[Exorcet]

1 minute ago, Mars Exulte said:

  Yeah, silly us, expecting people to learn n' stuff. Totally unreasonable and illogical in this day n' age.

You're looking at it the wrong way. DCS as a whole can be a lot to learn. Wanting an assist for one particular feature is not an indication of a lack of willingness to learn. AAR certainly doesn't make sense as the first thing to learn in the sim, so why not having a training aid for it while you're learning other things? Then of course you have the natural progression of learning with the assist on, to learning with it off. It's not like once you turn it on you're stuck with it. Learning a bike with training wheels is the first step to learning how to bike without them. I learned how to drive a car in automatic before manual. When I starting flight simming at age 7 or so I had unlimited fuel and ammo on in my sim of choice at the time until I got bored with that and wanted more realism.

 

If you want to promote learning, try to remember that not everyone goes about it the same way. I also won't deny that some people may not have any interest in learning how to properly AAR, but that's a non issue itself. Sometimes people have other priorities.

[Mars Exulte]

Yeah, the computer flying the plane for us is definitely highly instructive. It's like, all the advantages of watching a youtube video, minus the informative voiceover, human interaction, and awkard typing of phrases into search bars.

[Tippis]

9 minutes ago, Mars Exulte said:

Yeah, the computer flying the plane for us is definitely highly instructive.

Even if that's what people were asking for, it indeed would be.

It would be all the advantages of watching a youtube video, including the informative voice over (and even localisation and subtitle support), with the added benefit of allowing for actual human interaction as well as being enough of a controlled and repeatable situation that you could start adding all kinds of on-screen indicators to guide your eye. It would be interactive in a way a static video has no hope of achieving.

 

…and that's before we even get into the advantages of what people are really suggesting.

Edited March 28, 2021 by Tippis

[Exorcet]

1 minute ago, Mars Exulte said:

Yeah, the computer flying the plane for us is definitely highly instructive. It's like, all the advantages of watching a youtube video, minus the informative voiceover, human interaction, and awkard typing of phrases into search bars.

Autofly is something the against side has brought up more than anyone else. Expanding the tanker refuel region doesn't involve autofly. However, the thread has already covered the benefits of even something as intrusive as autofly, which is that the player still needs to think about the tanker in the first place. This conditions them to consider the tanker as a normal part of the mission. You don't get this with unlimited fuel or just an absence of tankers completely.

[SharpeXB]

27 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Except that as has already been pointed out, AAR is not necessary in game. People don't have to learn it, so whether or not the training aid encourages learning doesn't even matter. This still isn't a reason to keep it out of the sim. And it's not like training aids that would assist with learning haven't been mentioned a thousand times already. As have ways of letting servers disable the option (ie if it's done via ME).

I don’t quite understand your point. 
Yes, AAR is not necessary in the sim, you can do quite long sorties without it and even the DLC campaigns all appear to have some workaround or setting for those who do or don’t want it. 
So if AAR isn’t necessary to play DCS why is “Easy AAR” necessary? Even as a “training aid” this Easy Mode wouldn’t help IMO

 

Plus ED just stated they have no plans to add it so why keep this going?

[Tippis]

5 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I don’t quite understand your point. 

Try reading the thread. It has been explained extensively.

 

5 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Plus ED just stated they have no plans to add it so why keep this going?

The thing about plans is that they change with circumstances.

[Exorcet]

The point is, easy AAR doesn't need justification because it doesn't remove realism from DCS. That somewhere out in the world someone will be able to refuel their virtual plane without proper technique is so minuscule a "problem" that it's difficult to see why anyone would care that it's happening.

 

I don't think anyone has said easy AAR is necessary. DCS is an entertainment product. It is entirely unnecessary. People are asking for easy AAR because it comes with a number of benefits. I suppose the way that you learn/play it doesn't benefit you, that doesn't mean it won't benefit others. The first post in this thread is a pretty clear example. A group of players has members that can refuel and some that can't. The former group is limited by the latter if they're going to be in the same mission. Add easy AAR and now everyone can fly the same mission.

 

ED has no current plans for AAR, that can change. Threads like this show that the demand exists and serve as a place to discuss how to implement the feature.

[SharpeXB]

48 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

The point is, easy AAR doesn't need justification because it doesn't remove realism from DCS.

Explain the logic of how you reached this conclusion... how is your plane magically filling itself with fuel or having its flight model altered doesn’t remove realism?

48 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

The first post in this thread is a pretty clear example. A group of players has members that can refuel and some that can't. The former group is limited by the latter if they're going to be in the same mission. Add easy AAR and now everyone can fly the same mission.

Well the crux of the “problem” is a group that refuses to accommodate the ability of its members. How is that EDs concern?

48 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Threads like this show that the demand exists and serve as a place to discuss how to implement the feature.

And threads like this show that the majority of players don’t want it. 

 

Edited March 28, 2021 by SharpeXB

[Tippis]

10 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Explain the logic of how you reached this conclusion.

It has been explained in full on numerous occasions. If you were actually looking for an answer rather than just be a troll, you can read the thread.

 

Quote

Well the crux of the “problem” is a group that won’t accommodate the ability of its members. How is that EDs concern?

Because ED states that they intend to accommodate them.

This has been explained in full on numerous occasions. If you were actually looking for an answer rather than just be a troll, you can read the thread.

 

  

10 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

And threads like this show that the majority of players don’t want it. 

It really doesn't. It just shows that there is significant enough of an interest for it to be worth-while for ED to put some time into it.

This too has been explained on numerous occasions. You know the rest…

Edited March 28, 2021 by Tippis

[draconus]

43 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

That somewhere out in the world someone will be able to refuel their virtual plane without proper technique is so minuscule a "problem" that it's difficult to see why anyone would care that it's happening.

I think it's important part of the game where someone who can't AAR don't get AAR, the same as someone who don't know how to startup their aircraft won't start up. It might be ok in SP, on training servers or even combat MP, but only when all participants agree with that or it is clearly stated that assists/helpers are allowed. Otherwise everyone should play by the same rules.

[Tippis]

23 minutes ago, draconus said:

I think it's important part of the game where someone who can't AAR don't get AAR, the same as someone who don't know how to startup their aircraft won't start up.

Why, though? And that seems a bit of a backwards argument since someone who doesn't know to start their aircraft can and will start it up. So if that's the parity between features we're aiming for, why shouldn't the same apply to AAR?

 

Quote

It might be ok in SP, on training servers or even combat MP, but only when all participants agree with that or it is clearly stated that assists/helpers are allowed. Otherwise everyone should play by the same rules.

…but everyone would be playing by the same rules. They always do — that's what mission settings already do right now.

 

e: Actually, come to think of it and now that you mention it, this is actually a bit of a problem that needs to be solved. It certainly looks like a bug, but ED has never really be clear about what the intended effect of checking those mission options is supposed to be. It looks like you should be able to apply different rules to different players, but in practice, you can't. The settings are always enforced and always apply equally to everyone even when you apparently set them not to. That most certainly could use some fixing and/or clarification.

Edited March 28, 2021 by Tippis

[sthompson]

I take a break from the forum for a day and a half and the thread doubles in length! BN suggests it's going to be closed soon. Probably just as well. Here is a summary of my views for posterity in case anyone cares. Written mostly for my own benefit. I won't post again in this thread:

 

First, I've been flying DCS for years and have spent probably the equivalent of weeks at a full time job trying to do AAR without ever once connecting. And I've spent much more time than that practicing formation flying. So I completely reject the opinion that it's just a matter of practice. Practice undoubtedly is important, but it's not enough for me. I doubt if real pilots learn without any teaching assistance, so I'm not very sympathetic to arguments that teaching aids are unnecessary. That some people have learned without them does not mean that all people can. I'm also not sympathetic to views that some people will never get it even with better teaching aids because its hard. That's unproven, and even if true for some people it does not mean that teaching assistance would not help other people. There are lots of different kinds of people flying DCS. Some may be able to learn by practice alone. Others might never be able to learn. But there just might be some people who could learn with a bit more help. I hope I'm one of those people. 

 

Something is missing in my technique but I don't know what it is. I'd get help from a squadron, but real life prevents me from committing the time that most squadrons want. Furthermore, it isn't clear to me how such help would work. For those of you who have learned from a squadron, or successfully taught someone else online, I'd like to know more about how that worked.

 

I typically fly planes that use the basket, and I have not tried AAR in one of the boom planes. Most of my practice has been in the hornet, but I've also tried using the SU-33, F-14B, and JF-17. It's clear from videos that connecting with the basket is about flying to an invisible point in space relative to the tanker and staying there by flying precise formation with the tanker. I would at least like to have some visual impression of where that point in space is as a learning aid. If DCS can have green gates floating in midair for training then surely they could provide a similar visual aid for AAR. Perhaps just lock the basket to the magic spot instead of having it dance. Such aids are unrealistic, but then I only want it for learning. I would fully understand if it were turned off for competitive MP missions, but it would seem entirely appropriate for practice servers, or for servers running training missions where AAR training was part of the mission. As for SP, what I turn on or off for SP would seem to affect only me and isn't any of your business.

 

I've done quite a bit of searching for helpful information on AAR in manuals but haven't found much apart from procedure checklists. Certainly they do not provide a "how to." There do not appear to be any AAR training missions (as distinct from practice missions). There are lots of Youtube videos but its hard to watch one while you are flying and difficult to know what exactly you are supposed to take away from them in terms of "picture" or procedure. They offer no real time feedback. Furthermore I've noticed that the "sight picture" often varies from video to video even for the same plane and tanker, presumably due to differences in trim, loadout, altitude, DCS version, head position, etc. Many of "tips" given in those videos (e.g. line up HUD feature X with tanker feature Y) clearly are dependent on head position, trim, loadout, etc. So I try to focus on what the tanker looks like, ignoring the basket as is universally recommended to DCS pilots (but presumably is not the recommendation to real pilots). But that has not been enough for me to be successful. The best of these videos do describe the visual clues on the tanker that the author is using, and that has been quite helpful in helping me understand the basic idea of how to fly formation in the right place. Despite this, I never seem to connect, and if I start hunting for the invisible sweet spot in invariably end up in PIO. I've shot that tanker down so many times in frustration!

 

Significantly for me all of the tips that have been posted in this thread are ones that I've seen or read many times before. Telling people how to do it is helpful but only goes so far.

 

I'm personally not interested in an auto-refuel option but I can see why some people might need that due to lack of coordination, poor hardware, etc. A system that works by expanding the size of the sweet spot would be my recommended version if such a thing is enabled. Ideally it would be set at the client side for an individual pilot, but with restrictions imposed by the server to not allow the aid, similar to something like easy comms. 

 

It's been argued that AAR isn't a needed skill because you can use unlimited fuel, or land more often, or because fuel isn't a constraint in many or most missions. If you believe that, ask yourself whether DCS would have the same appeal if AAR were removed from the game altogether. I doubt if anyone would like that, even those of us who haven't been successful learning AAR. We would love to be able to do AAR in a realistic fashion. We are looking for ways to join the club, not to create our own. 

 

Relatedly, I'm not worried about splitting the MP community, which is a whole other topic that would hardly hinge on this one feature. I sincerely doubt that offering AAR learning aids or even auto-AAR as an option that can be disabled by the server would cause more fragmentation than is there already. The hardcore servers would leave it turned off, and the less hardcore pilots would avoid those servers just as they do now.  

 

The only potentially legitimate argument I've heard against introducing learning aids is that it takes resources away from other development at ED. If that is the concern, then I suggest a better approach would be to create your own "wish list" items about what you want, rather than try to argue that what others want is unnecessary. Nothing about DCS is necessary for any of us. This is not RL. It's entertainment. Ask for what you want. Respect that others might want something else.

 

Bye for now.

[Exorcet]

56 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Explain the logic of how you reached this conclusion... how is your plane magically filling itself with fuel or having its flight model altered doesn’t remove realism?

Well the crux of the “problem” is a group that refuses to accommodate the ability of its members. How is that EDs concern?

And threads like this show that the majority of players don’t want it. 

 

 

The explanations have been given multiple times, but if you want them repeated again; easy AAR is no different from existing assists in DCS such as game mode. Game mode has no influence on my experience in the slightest because as soon as DCS was installed on my computer I turned it off. Game mode does not remove any realism from DCS because it can be disabled. Easy AAR would be exactly the same. The realism of the sim is determinded by its settings at maximum realism. The only way easy AAR could reduce the realism of DCS is if it replaced normal AAR. No one is asking for that because it defeats the point of DCS being a sim.

 

What group is not accommodating their members? There is a group dealing with the limitations of the sim. They're asking ED to remove those limitations. It only makes sense to contact ED since they are the ones coding the game and are best equipped to remove the current limitations present in the code. This is especially true when ED has an entire section of their forum dedicated to feedback and user requests.

 

The poll you linked asks how many people want it, not how many people demand it must not be allowed in the sim, but even if it did there honestly isn't a lot of a value to a no vote when the option in question doesn't negatively affect anyone. Let's say you wanted to repaint a room in your house and some random person is suddenly offended by this and starts a poll to collect votes against your choice to paint your house. The poll could be 99:1 no, none of the no votes matter because it's none of their business.

 

44 minutes ago, draconus said:

I think it's important part of the game where someone who can't AAR don't get AAR, the same as someone who don't know how to startup their aircraft won't start up. It might be ok in SP, on training servers or even combat MP, but only when all participants agree with that or it is clearly stated that assists/helpers are allowed. Otherwise everyone should play by the same rules.

You're entitled to your opinions, but no one else has to agree, that's just how opinions work. I think it's fine to try to get people to play by the same rules and to let people sort out what rule they're willing to play by. Easy AAR has nothing to do with this. Servers can ban or allow it. Then it's up to players to join or ignore servers based on their settings. When I played online I didn't like servers with mirrored red/blue sides and the infallible kill messages active. All I had to do was not join servers that I didn't like. If a given player doesn't want to join a server with easy AAR enabled, read the server description and then decide if it meets your standards before joining.

[SharpeXB]

23 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

easy AAR is no different from existing assists in DCS such as game mode.

The other assists in DCS are also unrealistic. Should they be removed? Probably not. But we don’t need any more either. Principally because they are mostly all server side settings and affect MP. Plus there’s already an unlimited fuel assist. Game Mode is eventually going away so that shows the direction DCS is headed. Maybe MAC could have Easy AAR. But ED has now stated DCS won’t. 

[Tippis]

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The other assists in DCS are also unrealistic. Should they be removed? Probably not. But we don’t need any more either.

Why not? They're there to fulfil the stated intent of the game: to provide more relaxed gameplay that fits all levels of skill and to hand-hold players as they progress. Why should AAR, or indeed any other mode of flying that one might come up with helpers for, be any different?

 

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Principally because they are mostly all server side settings and affect MP

Actually, very few of them are. And technically speaking, no difficulty or helper settings are actual server settings, except maybe if you count kill messages. Funnily enough, a long-standing bug with DCS is that player settings don't count nearly as much as they should in MP. But surely, you knew this already and just misspoke about everything by accident… right?

[Exorcet]

7 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The other assists in DCS are also unrealistic. Should they be removed? Probably not. But we don’t need any more either. Principally because they are mostly all server side settings and affect MP. Plus there’s already an unlimited fuel assist. Game Mode is eventually going away so that shows the direction DCS is headed. Maybe MAC could have Easy AAR. But ED has now stated DCS won’t. 

Why does the number of assists matter? I don't even know how many we have or what they even all do, I turn them off. Whether we get more is of no concern to me.

 

Server side has been addressed, make easy AAR a trigger, now it's up to the mission creator. Unlimited refuel has been handled, it's not relevant to this thread.

 

Game Mode is being removed because it's old troublesome code, something easy AAR won't be along with the other assists like take off assist, easy rudder, UH-1 auto pilot etc. It seems pretty clear that these are not being removed and fit in with DCS, so easy AAR is in no way out of place.