not planned Easy mode AAR

[Jackjack171]

Just now, Tippis said:

 

No, it's there for the exact same reason as game aids, and it is wholly artificial: to make your inputs work differently than they should so you don't need the same speed and precision as you otherwise would. They're a game aid — you're massively fooling yourself if you think otherwise.

 

That's not actually how DCS works, you know, and helper settings in particular don't work remotely like that. Actually, just to clarify: you do know this, right? You have actually played DCS in a multiplayer setting and checked out how player skill settings work. right? Or are you just making baseless claims form a position of absolute ignorance as always?

 

This isn't a weightlifting competition. It's actually not a competition at all. It's a study sim designed with the express purpose to hand-hold players of all skill levels, with all kinds of functions and features to teach players to play the game and to adjust the difficulty to match their preferences, but where a lean towards realism is always the preferred undercurrent. Except in this area for some unfathomable reason. Here, there must apparently be no helpers, no adjusting preferences, no lean towards increased realism.

 

So your simile is pretty much completely inapplicable for a myriad of reasons, and even if there was anything remotely parallel between the two, no-one is asking for what you're suggesting, so it would be irrelevant and besides the point anyway. If anything, the exact opposite is the case.

The point is, if you are ready (in any imaginable form possible) you are, if you are not, your not! No, it's not a competition, but it is something that requires skill, knowledge and intestinal fortitude. I'm sure you understand that much bro! There's a lot of ineptness around here asking to be catered to. That's a very weak stance to take. Hand holding is akin to a common BS idea that everything is easy! I don't see much hand holding in DCS other than those asking for it! Read, learn, adapt, apply and overcome! It's not that hard bro!

9 minutes ago, Tippis said:

 

 

This isn't a weightlifting competition. It's actually not a competition at all.

 

Tell that to Kanji club! JK, but tell that to the server guys slinging -120's everywhere. Seems pretty competitive to me in some cases.

[Tippis]

14 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

The point is, if you are ready (in any imaginable form possible) you are, if you are not, your not!

No, the point is that there is continuous spectrum of shades between those two and the way to get from one end to the other via all the steps inbetween is to have good helpers, training aids, and supporting features that let you adjust the difficulty to match your stage of learning.

 

Quote

There's a lot of ineptness around here asking to be catered to.

And it should be, because that's what the game is being sold as. Read the product description.

 

38 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

If you read some of the request close enough, it's either "it's too hard" or "I don't have time" or some mix of it all. 

…and guess what? Those are excellent arguments in favour of why such a feature should be implemented. No-one has been able to actually counter those arguments — the only thing on offer is some vapid tripe about how it's “lazy”, as if that were a valid reason not to cater to that audience, and disregarding that it wouldn't even be an honest account of the reasons why people would make those arguments.

 

14 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

Hand holding is akin to a common BS idea that everything is easy!

Only if you never bothered to learn what hand-holding actually is. It has nothing to do with “everything being easy” — it has everything to do with the fact that some things are hard, and that to learn those things you are far better off having some help. Hand-holding is a teaching tool.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Tippis

[Jackjack171]

Just now, Tippis said:

No, the point is that there is continuous spectrum of shades between those two and the way to get from one end to the other via all the steps inbetween is to have good helpers, training aids, and supporting features that let you adjust the difficulty to match your stage of learning.

 

And it should be, because that's what the game is being sold as. Read the product description.

 

…and guess what? Those are excellent arguments in favour of why such a feature should be implemented. No-one has been able to actually counter those arguments — the only thing on offer is some vapid tripe about how it's “lazy”, as if that were a valid reason not to cater to that audience, and disregarding that it wouldn't even be an honest account of the reasons why people would make those arguments.

And yet we are here arguing it bro! That's the beauty of discussion. As far as ineptness goes, it's deplorable to say the least. I sure wouldn't want quitters on my team! No one should be catered to. Especially when it's only a minority doing all of the complaining. Cowboy up and own it if you can't hack it. But stop asking for an easy "A"! And I don't recall ineptness in the description. Study sim is just that, STUDY! Learn and apply, work hard! Easy like Sunday morning my friend!

[Tippis]

15 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

As far as ineptness goes, it's deplorable to say the least.

How so? Are we to no longer accept that new people discover this game and want to enjoy it? Are you that determined to make DCS a thing of the past? Ineptness is a stage in all learning. With good tools and some help, it can be overcome. Indeed, one of the express purposes of DCS is to help people with exactly that… well, unless they want to learn AAR, apparently, for some reason. Then they must not be allowed any such thing.

 

Quote

I sure wouldn't want quitters on my team!

No-one cares. And no-one is asking you to. So what does that have to do with anything here?

 

Quote

Cowboy up and own it if you can't hack it.

…which means asking someone to show you the ropes; to do a bit of hand-holding; to let you cut the problem up in smaller parts that can be addressed and learned one at a time. There's a pretty significant difference between a cowboy and a masochist (or sadist, if you're the one refusing to provide the teaching). And obviously, you can always do better than both and just be a methodical and structured learner. Well, at least if there are tools available that allow for it.

 

And again, no-one has been able to construct a cogent and coherent reason why they shouldn't be. Apparently, they just shouldn't, just because.

 

Quote

And I don't recall ineptness in the description. Study sim is just that, STUDY!

You should go and read it, then, because you've not quite understood what DCS is supposed to be and what audience it is meant to cater to (and yes, catering to people is indeed a good thing if you want the game to keep existing). And guess what fits perfectly in a study sim? Teaching tools! Shocking, I know. It's almost as if studying doesn't have to be a matter of repeatedly slamming your face against a wall because nothing better is on offer to get the ideas into your head.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Tippis

[shagrat]

38 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

I empathize with what you are saying about disabled dudes. But most of the time it's not that. The lazy part was not meant as a blanket statement that everyone who ask for help is lazy. It's the manner and reasoning behind why some of these guys ask, or flat out demand in some cases. If you read some of the request close enough, it's either "it's too hard" or "I don't have time" or some mix of it all. 

I can't show up to a weightlifting competition underweight and not ripped, then ask them to cater the entire event to me just because I wasn't ready! There was a user that was asking ED to dumb down settings somewhere once upon a time. Really? If I drive a Maserati and someone else drives a Prius, should I have to drive slower? I'm not rich. But I worked and saved (a pension helps too) and I made sure I got equipment that can handle DCS. If I had no money to play DCS properly, I just wouldn't or I would wait until I could. IJS

 

I guess the misconception is DCS is only about competition. The majority is about learning to fly combat aircraft, in a relaxed and safe environment. Then a small amount of players actually find their way into competitive Multiplayer whereas the majority keeps playing on their own against AI and enjoying campaigns. Another group is mostly playing PvE, some more hardcore than others.

DCS does not dictate If you want to prepare for a real war or just fly aerobatics, or navigation in bad weather. That is a decision each and every player does for himself. Neither I nor anyone else is to dictate for another player how he has to enjoy his hobby, or what and how he needs to prepare for.

That is exactly what DCS advertises. A customizable experience from arcade style to hardcore realism as close to the real thing as possible.

For me any Option that helps to bridge or educate between these worlds is more than welcome. Only condition I have, it needs to be an option so everyone can decide for himself if he switches it on or off. If it comes to things that affect competitive multiplayer these options should be possible to define server based.

 

The settings don't "split" the multiplayer base, the mindset does. If I want to play PvE with external views and modified dot labels, I will rather host a server for my like minded group, than be forced into an hardcore realism PvP Server that gives me a frustrating experience topped by getting slaughtered by some dogfight aces. Whereas there is a good chance, some people may try and like multiplayer, if they can participate in more complex and realistic missions, if they have a chance to use the helpers DCS provides... 

 

 

 

 

[Exorcet]

28 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

And yet we are here arguing it bro! That's the beauty of discussion. As far as ineptness goes, it's deplorable to say the least. I sure wouldn't want quitters on my team! No one should be catered to. Especially when it's only a minority doing all of the complaining. Cowboy up and own it if you can't hack it. But stop asking for an easy "A"! And I don't recall ineptness in the description. Study sim is just that, STUDY! Learn and apply, work hard! Easy like Sunday morning my friend!

Your determination on whether someone is a quitter is if they can AAR? It doesn't sound like you actually care about qualifications. As for no one being catered to, it's a non issue. Whether someone is catered to or not doesn't matter. I guess you're free to just ignore people that you feel are undeserving, but the points you're bringing up literally don't hold any meaning. There is no one asking for an easy A, because there is no one making a contest out of nothing besides the people who want to force everyone into meeting arbitrary standards. I don't mind people having their opinions, but I have to be honest in that I see the anti AAR assist arguments more about enforcing strange standards of "purity" than improving the game or helping people get better.

[Jackjack171]

14 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Your determination on whether someone is a quitter is if they can AAR? It doesn't sound like you actually care about qualifications. As for no one being catered to, it's a non issue. Whether someone is catered to or not doesn't matter. I guess you're free to just ignore people that you feel are undeserving, but the points you're bringing up literally don't hold any meaning. There is no one asking for an easy A, because there is no one making a contest out of nothing besides the people who want to force everyone into meeting arbitrary standards. I don't mind people having their opinions, but I have to be honest in that I see the anti AAR assist arguments more about enforcing strange standards of "purity" than improving the game or helping people get better.

If you'd read my other post, you'd know that's not the case bro. It's the attitude of the OP and others like it! I cannot nor would I try to enforce anything. That would be a waste of time! That being said, I stand by what I said. It is a real show of weakness and entitlement to not even try and then ask to be catered to. Point blank period! If a user is okay at being a quitter and doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to even try, that's on them. Since this is a forum discussion, I'm going to call it as I see it!  I agreed that a training aid is great. Training wheels are not! And since we are having a discussion, that's my stance. Feel free to like it or dislike it. My points may have no meaning to you in particular, but some do agree! Why sign on to DCS and then whine about how hard it is? It's funny and sad at the same time. You don't learn by someone doing it for you, you do it or don't! Try harder even, but don't whine about it! This is at least the 3rd thread that I know of asking for the same thing. And if you read the forums long enough, you see it is not about needing help at all. It's simply ineptness! It's deplorable. 

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, shagrat said:

The majority is about learning to fly combat aircraft, in a relaxed and safe environment.

Did you just use “combat” “relaxed” and “safe” in the same sentence? 

Now AAR is relaxed and safe. The combat part of DCS is much more difficult. Why doesn’t anyone complain about that?

[Jackjack171]

52 minutes ago, Tippis said:

How so? Are we to no longer accept that new people discover this game and want to enjoy it? Are you that determined to make DCS a thing of the past? Ineptness is a stage in all learning. With good tools and some help, it can be overcome. Indeed, one of the express purposes of DCS is to help people with exactly that… well, unless they want to learn AAR, apparently, for some reason. Then they must not be allowed any such thing.

 

No-one cares. And no-one is asking you to. So what does that have to do with anything here?

 

…which means asking someone to show you the ropes; to do a bit of hand-holding; to let you cut the problem up in smaller parts that can be addressed and learned one at a time. There's a pretty significant difference between a cowboy and a masochist (or sadist, if you're the one refusing to provide the teaching). And obviously, you can always do better than both and just be a methodical and structured learner. Well, at least if there are tools available that allow for it.

 

And again, no-one has been able to construct a cogent and coherent reason why they shouldn't be. Apparently, they just shouldn't, just because.

 

You should go and read it, then, because you've not quite understood what DCS is supposed to be and what audience it is meant to cater to (and yes, catering to people is indeed a good thing if you want the game to keep existing). And guess what fits perfectly in a study sim? Teaching tools! Shocking, I know. It's almost as if studying doesn't have to be a matter of repeatedly slamming your face against a wall because nothing better is on offer to get the ideas into your head.

 

Bro, DCS has no shortage of new users. The forums and user files section proves that! DCS is not going anywhere anytime soon so don't go there man!

Showing the ropes and hand holding do not go together! I know, I was an Instructor on active duty once upon a time! Trust me, you don't want to cross that very thin line! It's funny you used masochist. There is pain in learning, whether physically or mentally. Nothing wrong with that at all. In some cases, it's how you learn. I've seen the magic happen.

And I don't recall asking for anyone's approval to speak here. If no one cares that's cool! This is a public forum dude! Just like you, I have my thoughts, you have yours. We can agree to disagree, but stop with that cupcake statement that no one cares. It's not a requirement to have anyone's ear or approval bro! Not for me anyway! I could say the same about you, but I won't go there because, why bother? This is a conversation, either reply or depart the pattern! It's cool either way bro! We just have to be respectful.

I do agree with you about teaching tools. Not crutches or hand holding though. There's a difference! A thin line, but...

And the beauty of our beloved sim is that you can try and try again. Die, respawn and go at it until you pass out! Wash, rinse, repeat!

[SharpeXB]

And I still don’t get why AAR is such a vital feature for new players. It’s just not. And if you’re pressed for time and can’t put in the practice then how are you flying missions long enough to require it? 

[Tippis]

3 hours ago, Jackjack171 said:

Bro, DCS has no shortage of new users.

That wasn't the question. The question was, are we to no longer accept that new people discover the game? Because that's effectively what you're saying: that it's deplorable. And surely, if it's deplorable, it's something you want to see fixed, right? How about actually trying to answer it this time rather than evading it…

 

3 hours ago, Jackjack171 said:

Showing the ropes and hand holding do not go together!

Of course they do. It's an integral part of the process for any competent teacher. The antiquated school of hard knocks is antiquated for a reason: because it has long since been proven to be vastly inferior to proper teaching practices, and it isn't actually conducive to efficient learning. I'm sorry if you've never experienced actual good teachings and seen what a difference proper hand-holding makes. But even if your poor experience was a general truth, it wouldn't actually matter — again, the express intent of DCS is to offer hand-holding. There's no way around that. So even if teaching tools such as this would end just “just being hand-holding” then that would be an entirely valid reason for their implementation anyway.

 

3 hours ago, Jackjack171 said:

There is pain in learning, whether physically or mentally.

Only if it's done incorrectly or with horrible tutelage. If done right and with a good teacher, learning is plenty of fun and can even be made next to effortless. If there is pain involved, 15 times of 10, the student is absorbing the wrong lessons is are just creating horrible training scars that will take ages to come out once (or if) someone who knows what they're doing has to correct them.

 

3 hours ago, Jackjack171 said:

stop with that cupcake statement that no one cares. […] I could say the same about you, but I won't go there because, why bother?

No, I don't think I will stop pointing out that your preference for other players is wholly and completely irrelevant to what the game needs to cater to its full range of players. You're free to try to turn it around but of course, that won't work because I don't make that kind of argument. That's why you don't bother: because it wouldn't actually work if you tried. No-one cares who you want on your team, and it's of exactly zero significance to the topic at hand.

 

3 hours ago, Jackjack171 said:

I do agree with you about teaching tools. Not crutches or hand holding though.

You can't have one without the other so which is it? Do you want teaching tools — i.e. crutches and hand-holding — or don't you. Do you want “ineptitude” in the game or don't you? Do you want to see new and casual players get the environment they've been promised or not? Do you want this entertainment product to be painful or not? And why on earth would you want to inflict that pain on others who just want to have a bit of fun? Please explain the sense in that.

 

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

And I still don’t get why AAR is such a vital feature for new players.

That's because it's just yet another nonsensical strawman you've erected because you have no argument to offer against the implementation of this kind of feature. None. The only one who has ever said that it was somehow a vital feature for new players is you, and if you don't get why you said that, then maybe you shouldn't have said it to begin with. Simples. This will just be your new point of repetition because everything else you've said has had the exact opposite to what you wanted and has instead demonstrated the need for this feature. So now you're desperately grasping for a new straw that can help keep you in the game (top tip: it won't — fallacies never do).

[Northstar98]

8 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

See again, once you learn to do this you’ll realize these kind of things aren’t going to help or help enough.

 

What? How is it any different than any other training mission? You've been telling me to look at a YouTube video so you can watch someone else do it - the difference here is that the player is actually doing it themselves and getting feedback on it - which would be more useful.

 

Quote

You know where you’re supposed to be relative to the tanker by your sight picture and such. Not by some green box, which you’ll become dependent on and then be lost when you try to switch it off.

 

The idea is to use the box as a general guide of where to be - once you're there the box can disappear and the mission just provides feedback on how you're doing.

 

As you improve you can transition to just practice, what's the problem?

 

Quote

Those kind of aids like labels just become a crutch.

 

Yeah, not seeing it personally. 

 

Quote

And it becomes yet another server setting in MP... that’s really the other problem. These option split up an already small player base online.

 

Not really a problem at all, as shagrat explained.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Northstar98

[Jackjack171]

40 minutes ago, Tippis said:

That wasn't the question. The question was, are we to no longer accept that new people discover the game? Because that's effectively what you're saying: that it's deplorable. And surely, if it's deplorable, it's something you want to see fixed, right? How about actually trying to answer it this time rather than evading it…

 

Of course they do. It's an integral part of the process for any competent teacher. The antiquated school of hard knocks is antiquated for a reason: because it has long since been proven to be vastly inferior to proper teaching practices, and it isn't actually conducive to efficient learning. I'm sorry if you've never experienced actual good teachings and seen what a difference proper hand-holding makes. But even if your poor experience was a general truth, it wouldn't actually matter — again, the express intent of DCS is to offer hand-holding. There's no way around that. So even if teaching tools such as this would end just “just being hand-holding” then that would be an entirely valid reason for their implementation anyway.

 

Only if it's done incorrectly or with horrible tutelage. If done right and with a good teacher, learning is plenty of fun and can even be made next to effortless. If there is pain involved, 15 times of 10, the student is absorbing the wrong lessons is are just creating horrible training scars that will take ages to come out once (or if) someone who knows what they're doing has to correct them.

 

No, I don't think I will stop pointing out that your preference for other players is wholly and completely irrelevant to what the game needs to cater to its full range of players. You're free to try to turn it around but of course, that won't work because I don't make that kind of argument. That's why you don't bother: because it wouldn't actually work if you tried. No-one cares who you want on your team, and it's of exactly zero significance to the topic at hand.

 

You can't have one without the other so which is it? Do you want teaching tools — i.e. crutches and hand-holding — or don't you. Do you want “ineptitude” in the game or don't you? Do you want to see new and casual players get the environment they've been promised or not? Do you want this entertainment product to be painful or not? And why on earth would you want to inflict that pain on others who just want to have a bit of fun? Please explain the sense in that.

 

That's because it's just yet another nonsensical strawman you've erected because you have no argument to offer against the implementation of this kind of feature. None. The only one who has ever said that it was somehow a vital feature for new players is you, and if you don't get why you said that, then maybe you shouldn't have said it to begin with. Simples. This will just be your new point of repetition because everything else you've said has had the exact opposite to what you wanted and has instead demonstrated the need for this feature. So now you're desperately grasping for a new straw that can help keep you in the game (top tip: it won't — fallacies never do).

I didn't answer your question because it didn't seem like a real question but here it is:

I really don't care how new people discover DCS. Not my bag! They either do it or they don't! 

Who said the school of hard knocks was antiquated? You? No bro, it's not. Like it or not, it's still there! 

Have you ever been an instructor? There's a line between teaching and hand holding. The latter is frowned upon. Your idea of hand holding is jacked up (misinterpreted). I mean, do you really need to be spoon fed for everything? The guys that needed hand holding got sent to do other things like, cleaning the head (restroom)! They were really good at that!

I never said my idea of fun is watching pain. But I do cherish the lesson. Who's afraid of a little pain btw? It's a natural fact of life bro!

 What's with the italicized you's? I hope you are kidding dude! I need not desperately grasp at anything. Like I said previously, this is a conversation amongst men. I have my stance, you have yours. It doesn't change anything! At least not the way I feel about it. And who are you speaking for when you say no one cares? Who are these mystery people? Funny! You shouldn't assume dude! As for me, I don't care what others think about my views. I wouldn't have had the success in my career if I did. They are my views and that's not changing anytime soon! I respect you for yours but you have to do the same. There's nothing wrong with back and forth antics, I welcome it! And as far as you saying I have no argument, apparently there are others that agree with me, as do you. So there's that!

 I hope I answered your questions.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Jackjack171

[Tippis]

3 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

I really don't care how new people discover DCS.

Ok. That's a clear answer at least, even if it is highly worrisome.

 

3 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

Who said the school of hard knocks was antiquated?

Just about everyone who's trained in the matter by competent professionals in the last few decades. I know it's still there — that doesn't mean it's not antiquated, only that it is clinging by long after it should. Teaching has evolved as we have learned more and more how learning works. It turns out hand-holding is an important part of it. It's why demonstrations and even quite literal hand-holding are part and parcel of the transfer of skills, especially when it comes to tacit knowledge.

 

3 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

There's a line between teaching and hand holding. The latter is frowned upon.

Not by competent teachers, no. They see it for what it is: a tool in the general toolbox that can and should be applied to the appropriate problems at the appropriate skill levels. It's something we've been doing for millennia, and for good reason. And again, even if it weren't, it would still be something that DCS is supposed to provide, irrespective of your opinions of the utility of it. So again, your preferences and your views on quitters, ineptitude, or any other disparaging descriptor you want to use are wholly irrelevant.

 

3 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

I never said my idea of fun is watching pain.

Ok? And…?

 

3 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

What's with the italicized you's?

It's how the semantic marker of emphasis is commonly communicated in written text. It's one step below “strong emphasis”, commonly highlighted in bold. In this case, it's to emphasise that it's SharpeXP, and no-one else, that is making the claims that SharpeXP is complaining about. Because that's how his (wholesale lack of) argumentation always work: if it's not an outright fabrication, it's a complete fallacy — commonly both.

 

3 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

I hope you are kidding dude! I need not desperately grasp at anything.

You should probably read the post more carefully — the names in each quote block are there for a reason.

 

[Fri13]

9 hours ago, Jackjack171 said:

The original OP called for this. I think this smells like laziness. One thing that I've noticed about these "groups" is that they are really good at learning radar operation, missile parameters and such but suck at basic airmanship. 

 

At older age your mind can be sharp as razor, but your body doesn't anymore respond like a 15 year old....

 

You can handle radar systems perfectly, you can know by the heart all about weapons, but you can't even keep your hands steady... 

 

There are different people, so what is problem to assist them in different parts of the game?

 

And is the air refueling now part of a basic airmanship now?

[HILOK]

i dont see a problem in having a checkbox in the options or mission editor for "easy AAR". let everyone have their way of doing things.

 

personally, i would prefer auto-pilot refueling or "auto-stay-connected" (after hitting the probe/boom manually) over a magical "in-zone fill-up", because this way everyone in the flight still gets to apply the procedures.

also, one of the most important keys in successfully AAR is to know the picture you are looking for, when getting in position. so watching the AP refuel a couple of times will definitely help people on their way learning to do it by themselves.

[Fri13]

23 minutes ago, HILOK said:

personally, i would prefer auto-pilot refueling or "auto-stay-connected" (after hitting the probe/boom manually) over a magical "in-zone fill-up", because this way everyone in the flight still gets to apply the procedures.

 

Exactly that. In my idea it is possible be made a specific aircraft with the assistance, so player A can play with players B and C where everyone is required to make the air refueling, learn the process, complete the process and get the experience, regardless that player B and C doesn't have assisting feature enabled like A does have. For what ever reasons, like it can be "Father and Son" time or it can be a "professional ex-fighter pilot and never-flown-anything friend" etc. It is not forced to be a server level setting that it is for everyone or for no one.

It can be just a individual plane, a individual tanker, a individual tanker basket, it can be a radio call menu item to assist anyone who makes the connection via proper procedure etc. 

Key point is, if someone doesn't want it then they do not enable it. It is Opt-In feature and not a Opt-Out.  

 

23 minutes ago, HILOK said:

also, one of the most important keys in successfully AAR is to know the picture you are looking for, when getting in position. so watching the AP refuel a couple of times will definitely help people on their way learning to do it by themselves.

 

Exactly. Helping players doesn't mean that everyone will need it all the time. There will be those who will want to use it more or even always for various reasons, but as well those who will get speeded up in their learning experience to do it properly and can adjust it low or turn off eventually. Then there can be those who want to whack their head to the stone until they make it. Everyone can be happy (except those who now so strongly oppose the idea by going through all different arguments after each counter, just so that they can oppose it). 

 

 

[Furiz]

9 hours ago, shagrat said:

You are aware, that you actually promote to include hurdles for the elderly, or physically challenged to separate and exclude them, based on their disabilities?

In the "real air force" 99% of us won't be flying a fighter jet, that's why we play DCS, to pretend and have fun. 

A vigorous selection program to weed out the "old, weak and incapable" may make sense if you fly a million dollar fighter jet and put lives at risk, but for a video game? Really? ...and keep in mind a lot(!) of people have a life and a family beside the PC and can't just "train until it clicks", because they can't find more than a two hour slot once a week to fly DCS.

Assuming just 8-10 hrs to at least get a connect reliably, means 2 to 3 months(!) worth of playing time spent to learn AAR instead. That is if you don't start from scratch, from weekend to weekend. An aid to help through the process, ease the whole procedure for people with disabilities or who struggle because of age, even if it's just to help casual players to have a couple hours of fun with their friends, it is well worth it.

 

It wasn't my intention to separate or exclude anyone, people come here to get close to a military pilot experience, as close as we can get, that is why I'm here, it is their choice to pick this sim, they could have played Ace Combat but that was too arcade I guess so they came here, if we take out the difficulty what does that leave us with, it takes out the experience.

 

Ye I know you could turn the assist on and off but it is really not the point, its like enabling aim assist in a first person shooter cause you have elder or disabled people playing. And believe me there are elder and disabled people playing CoD or Overwatch etc... there is no Aim assist there (PC version, dunno bout consoles), some are even streaming and are very well accepted in the community.

 

I'm sure in their squadron they can find people to help them out.

They have the unlimited fuel option already, they can use the Mission Editor to make it easier to refuel for example, make the tanker fly 275 - 300kts at angels 17 with no wind, that's the best alt and speed for refueling.

And practice.

[Fri13]

38 minutes ago, Furiz said:

if we take out the difficulty what does that leave us with, it takes out the experience.

 

It doesn't take away anything when it is optional to player, mission designer, server to use it.

Nothing would change from the current status for those who want "full experience".

 

38 minutes ago, Furiz said:

Ye I know you could turn the assist on and off but it is really not the point

 

That is exactly the point! You take away the fact, you are left with nothing!

This wish is about adding a feature that assist players who need it, it is not taking away anything, it is not changing the current system or features... 

 

If someone doesn't need it, then do not enable it. If someone needs it, then allow them to have way to enable and adjust it!

 

38 minutes ago, Furiz said:

its like enabling aim assist in a first person shooter cause you have elder or disabled people playing. And believe me there are elder and disabled people playing CoD or Overwatch etc... there is no Aim assist there (PC version, dunno bout consoles), some are even streaming and are very well accepted in the community.

 

Actually there are. There are forced auto assist features that you can't turn off, that generates difference to used input hardware (keyboard+mouse vs joypad) in other direction. 

Example: https://www.theloadout.com/streamers/drdisrespect/call-of-duty-modern-warfare-aim-assist-rage

 

This discussion is not about autoaim, it is not about GAME MODE or GAME RADAR. It is about assisting feature for the air refueling. 

 

38 minutes ago, Furiz said:

I'm sure in their squadron they can find people to help them out.

 

Please, read the Original Post.

 

38 minutes ago, Furiz said:

They have the unlimited fuel option already

 

Already pointed out to be illogical argument multiple times by multiple people. 

 

38 minutes ago, Furiz said:

they can use the Mission Editor to make it easier to refuel for example, make the tanker fly 275 - 300kts at angels 17 with no wind, that's the best alt and speed for refueling.

 

Why do you repeat arguments that has been countered? 

 

38 minutes ago, Furiz said:

And practice.

 

Please, read the discussion through once more.

You are going for a second circle with arguments that are already countered (twice if not more).

 

 

[Tippis]

54 minutes ago, Furiz said:

if we take out the difficulty what does that leave us with, it takes out the experience.

 That would be the exact opposite to what this kind of feature would create: it would add to the experience and increase the difficulty (and realism) for those who'd be using it. For those that didn't there would be zero difference, so nothing would be taken out. It's all gain; no loss; no downsides.

 

54 minutes ago, Furiz said:

They have the unlimited fuel option already, they can use the Mission Editor to make it easier to refuel for example, make the tanker fly 275 - 300kts at angels 17 with no wind, that's the best alt and speed for refueling.

But that's just it: unlimited fuel doesn't actually help — it only breaks things and enforces a massive level of unrealism on everyone whether they want it or not. Hell, in some planes, it effectively disables AAR for those who want to do it, so it's not a viable option for… well… almost anything really. So it's a non-option that solves none of the problems being discussed hear and only adds other. Making the completely unrealistic for all players is not a valid alternative to making missions more realistic for some.

 

And there is nothing in the ME to make refuelling easier. That's kind of the point. One speed is much a the other, and wind as it is implemented in DCS at the moment shouldn't even be a factor — if it is, that's actually a bug that needs to be fixing. So that just leaves altitude, and that's just a regular part of how you design mission rather than something that just makes it easier. So that doesn't solve anything either other than by potentially exploiting a bug and again, bug exploitation isn't really a valid alternative to making missions more realistic.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Tippis

[Exorcet]

1 hour ago, Fri13 said:

 

Exactly that. In my idea it is possible be made a specific aircraft with the assistance, so player A can play with players B and C where everyone is required to make the air refueling, learn the process, complete the process and get the experience, regardless that player B and C doesn't have assisting feature enabled like A does have. For what ever reasons, like it can be "Father and Son" time or it can be a "professional ex-fighter pilot and never-flown-anything friend" etc. It is not forced to be a server level setting that it is for everyone or for no one.

It can be just a individual plane, a individual tanker, a individual tanker basket, it can be a radio call menu item to assist anyone who makes the connection via proper procedure etc. 

Key point is, if someone doesn't want it then they do not enable it. It is Opt-In feature and not a Opt-Out. 

Yeah those are good ways of doing it:

 

Have it set as a trigger or something on a specific tanker

Have it as an extra radio option in the tanker menu since we have to contact the tanker anyway, but with this one maybe require a checkbox in the options for it to appear, like autorudder, so it's obvious that it's an assist.

 

Both of these allow easy AAR to coexist with the unassisted version. As for what easy AAR should do, I like having an autopilot because I could use it for mission testing, but that may not be the best teaching tool. For learning we could extend the range of the boom/basket, but have some kind of visual indication once your plane is outside of the normal range, like a flashing red light appears on screen. You'll still get fuel, but it would direct you to adjust to the correct position. The extended refuel radius could also be set in the ME so that it can be reduced over time as people improve.

[SharpeXB]

4 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

 

What? How is it any different than any other training mission?

Because it’s a physical skill you need to master. A tutorial in the game can’t do that for you. The only way to develop the skill is to put n the practice. What you need to do is be able to reflexively predict the input and reaction of your aircraft in the same way as riding a bicycle. The only way to gain those reflexes is through hours of practice. 

[SharpeXB]

16 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

For learning we could extend the range of the boom/basket, but have some kind of visual indication once your plane is outside of the normal range, like a flashing red light appears on screen.

This wouldn’t help because it’s affecting where your eyes are looking which is really important and sorta hard to control. You would find your eyes glued to this indicator when they should really be taking in the visual cues of the tanker. 
 

It’s clear from these suggestions that you guys haven’t figured this out yet. That’s the problem with this thread. It’s people trying to make suggestions who haven’t figured out what this task requires. How about taking advice from someone who can do this? Those players will all tell you the same thing. Practice. 

[draconus]

It's fine for SP but how can it be any fair in MP? Take for example a guy who can't AAR yet mismanaged their fuel so should end up in the drink or eject normally but with the option he does AAR and might come back to fight. Or the guy who can AAR but will exploit the option to make it faster. It probably won't decide on winning but are you fine with it? It'd take away the care to have some fuel buffer when it's too easy to get.

[Dragon1-1]

42 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Because it’s a physical skill you need to master. A tutorial in the game can’t do that for you. The only way to develop the skill is to put n the practice. What you need to do is be able to reflexively predict the input and reaction of your aircraft in the same way as riding a bicycle. The only way to gain those reflexes is through hours of practice. 

A tutorial can be immensely helpful, by telling you what to look for, though. BalticDragon's AAR tutorial for the Harrier is brilliant and really helps in what would otherwise be an extremely difficult task due to lack of a visual reference on the probe. The best way to do AAR is to find one or two visual cues (such as the "30" of Tomcat's pitch ladder or Harrier's canopy mirror), line them up and fly that. A mission that tells you what to look for will make AAR a lot less painful than trying to figure it out by yourself.