AI wingmen fail to join formation

[Oreo147]

Hi all,

 

I think I’ve found a bug with the AI wingmen. They struggle to keep up with the player’s aircraft when ordered to fly in formation, after taking off from an airbase. What happens is that #2, #3 and #4 stay way behind the player, even when ordered to fly in close formation.

 

So far I’ve noticed this in some of my own simple missions, flying the Spitfire IX and P-47D. I’ve uploaded a .trk file below. In this mission I set my AI flight to fly in close (30m) WWII Fighter Vic formation, but you can see them struggling to join up, even when I fly slowly or if I make a few 360’s so they can catch up.

 

I’m currently on the latest Open Beta (2.5.6.61527.3 as of now) and I don’t remember encountering this before. In the 1st track file you can see the wingmen somewhat join formation but still lag behind and in the 2nd track file #3 and #4 completely fail to join formation and fly like a mile behind me. I flew the mission in the 2nd file at 7x speed.

 

I’ve looked around on the forums and I couldn’t find this being reported before, so sorry if this has been priorly reported. This is my first time writing a bug report so if anything’s missing, feel free to let me know. I’ll try my best to help.

P47D wingmen bug part 1.trk

Track file part 2, else I'd exceed the 5mb upload limit in the first post

P47D wingmen bug part 2.trk

Edited March 13, 2021 by Oreo147

[Ironhand]

Don't know how to actually fly this aircraft, so don't laugh too hard, if you view the TRK.

 

Anyway, a quick test took them 4 minutes to all be in line using a runway start. (Sorry. I didn't want to go through the whole turning circles as I tried to taxi from the parking area. That's too much for me to handle right now.)

 

BTW, neither of your trk files played back correctly for me.

P-47D Wingman Formation.trk

[Oreo147]

2 hours ago, Ironhand said:

Anyway, a quick test took them 4 minutes to all be in line using a runway start.

 

I've done some further testing in the meanwhile and I've found that the issue I described only happens when I take off from an airfield after a cold start from the ramp. Like in your .trk file the bug doesn't happen when starting the mission on the runway I found. Thanks for the help though  

I'll post a screenshot showing the problem when I have time to clarify things a little further!

[Ironhand]

 Perhaps it’s time for me to learn how to start and taxi this beast.

[Oreo147]

Here's two screenshots further highlighting the bug. This is after a cold start on an airfield. I basically flew in a straight line here from RAF High Halden on the Channel map all the way to France on cruise settings in the P-47 (say 50% power or so). The AI seem like they're nowhere near full power to try to catch up. 

 

Screenshot 1, here you can see #3 and #4 way back

 

Screenshot 2, same situation as above F10 map view.

 

This is roughly 10 minutes after take off. Another 10 minutes further in the mission #3 and #4 are still some 3 to 4 miles behind me. 

I hope this clears things up! 

 

 

 

46 minutes ago, Ironhand said:

 Perhaps it’s time for me to learn how to start and taxi this beast.

Don't worry, lockable tailwheel and wide landing gear make the Jug easy to handle on the ground  

[Ironhand]

Tried again, this time a cold start from Manston (?) on the coast. Once again, about 4 minutes before all were joined.

 

Edit: Took off after the first wingnut pulled up behind me on the runway. Banked right and swung a lazy 270 or so to head out toward France climbing slowly with an airspeed of 200. Within 4 minutes they were in formation off my right wing.

 

I can upload the TRK tonight, if you’d like. I’m not seeing a problem unless, perhaps, it’s airbase specific?

Edited March 16, 2021 by Ironhand

[Ironhand]

Track file attached. Forgive my aircraft handling...but all seems "normal" to me. It only took about 4 minutes.

P-47D Wingnuts Joining Formation After Cold Start.trk

[Oreo147]

Alright, this is getting a little strange. I decided to do some further testing and I found the issue still persists, also with different aircraft on different maps. 

I tested this in the Su-27, taking off from Latakia in Syria and found that my single wingman again couldn't catch up.

In the mission editor I set my flight to fly Finger Four close formation. Using radio comms in the mission itself I again ordered my wingman to do the same. I flew in a straight line for some 10-15 minutes after doing some circles and my wingman just couldn't catch up. He ended up flying 1.6 nm behind me. I found the same happened to my AI wingman after taking off from Nellis AFB on the NTTR  map in an F/A-18. 

 

Interestingly, I found that he was flying at the same speed as me (550kts IAS), however, I was flying at only 90% RPM and my wingman was flying at full afterburner (100% RPM burners on). Earlier on the wingman manages to fly at a higher speed (660kts IAS) however as he nears around 1.5 nm from me the wingman's airspeed drops to my airspeed, regardless of the wingman's power setting, causing him to not be able to catch up with me to join formation. 

 

I'll see if I can reproduce this in a simple mission, so I can upload a .trk file along with some screenshots. 
Btw, I double-checked and I'm on the latest DCS version (xxxxx) and I do not have any mods installed. I also ran a repair just to be sure. 

[Ironhand]

I’ll be interested to see if we both get the same behavior in your track. I’m using the latest OB in my testing. I also have the “Stable” installed as well, if needed.

 

The AI are constantly running out of fuel because of the way afterburner is used. There’s a separate thread about it.

 

EDIT: Just noticed that you put your flight of 2 aircraft into a finger four formation in the ME. Could that be the issue? Or specifying any formation in the ME at all? You and I are having very different experiences and I never specified a formation for my flight in the ME. For that matter, never realized you could. I always do it thru the comms menu.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Ironhand

[Oreo147]

11 hours ago, Ironhand said:

Just noticed that you put your flight of 2 aircraft into a finger four formation in the ME. Could that be the issue?

I've made numerous missions in the past in older versions of DCS and this worked perfectly fine. I just did a test mission but I forgot to save the replay in my infinite wisdom, but I do have some screenshots again showing the issue. I will re-fly this mission again when I have time so I can attach a .trk file. 

 

In this mission, I did the following:

1) Cold start at Bassel Al-Assad (Syria) in a flight of 2x Su-27's, set to ''Finger Four Group Close'' formation in the ME
2) Take-off from the appropriate runway
3) One traffic pattern around the airfield so the AI can catch up 
4) Fly in a straight line using autopilot, at 90-92% RPM, reaching a speed of 540kts IAS at 7000feet MSL. 

 

Again, the following happens: it takes over 10 minutes for the #2 wingman to catch up and he ends up some 1.5nm behind me. We are flying at the same speed, but the AI wingman is at 100% RPM with afterburner and I'm only at some 90% RPM. The wingman manages to do 650kts+ first at the same power setting but as he nears me, his speed drops regardless of him flying at full burners. See the screenshots below with the info bars at the bottom of the screen.

 

 

This is the same what happens in the above .trk files I uploaded, with the P-47. I downloaded them and they do play back perfectly fine for me. I've had this happen now on all maps I've tested on taking off from a number of different airfields using different aircraft. The screenshots above and in my previous posts in this topic show the issue too. I am using DCS 2.5.6.61527.3 (latest version as of now). I ran a repair just to be sure and I made sure I have no mods or anything installed. 

 

 

 

 

[Oreo147]

Alright here's another .trk file demonstrating the issue. When watching this, note how my wingman's speed drops as he nears me regardless of him being at 100% RPM with full afterburners, causing him to stay behind not being able to rejoin formation. He ends up flying the same speed as me despite me being at only 95% RPM here.

 

 Su27 formation bug.trk

[Ironhand]

That played correctly and I saw what you saw. It has nothing to do with the formation as you noted. I tested that myself and saw no significant difference. Deleted everything other than your flight in that mission and it still played the same. So I'm not sure what's going on. I fly a bit differently with wingnuts along than you do, going a bit slower at the start but...

[Oreo147]

2 hours ago, Ironhand said:

So I'm not sure what's going on.

 

I don't understand it too, hence why I reported this, it's probably a bug that needs fixing. In previous DCS versions in which I made many missions I've never had my AI wingmen show this strange behavior before.  

[Oreo147]

Sorry if I'm coming across as impatient, but I was wondering, are we going to get a response from an official tester/community manager or something about this bug? I reported this a week ago now and I'd like to see this fixed if that's possible... 

[Ironhand]

If it's a bug, it's a bug I am unable to reproduce. I created several flights over the weekend and, in each, the formations were complete roughly 4 minutes after my aircraft left the runway. The only time I've seen the issue was in your "Su27 formation bug.trk". It even occurred when I flew that mission. However, when I deleted your flight and replaced it with one of my own, the issue disappeared. [Edited out my query asking if you had mods installed. Reread the thread and realized that you do not.] I've attached my "replacement flight" of your Su-27 formation bug TRK, in case you want to view it. I used the finger four even though it's a 2-ship as you did in case that was the issue. Also tried it with other formations.

Su-27 Finger Four Formation Join.trk

Edited March 22, 2021 by Ironhand

[Oreo147]

10 hours ago, Ironhand said:

If it's a bug, it's a bug I am unable to reproduce

 

I've seen your track and indeed all goes as it should... I've flown some more test missions, this time in the Spitfire but for some reason my wingmen just keep lagging behind. Even if I throttle back all the way and fly near stall speed, they get closer but still do not form an actual formation. The wingman just fly slower still behind me. Much like in my screenshots above. I guess it's just the random nature of this bug... confusing  

Anyway thanks for the help, I guess now all we can do is see if this somehow gets fixed in a future patch. I'll try to find if maybe it's something on my side too, still 

[Ironhand]

41 minutes ago, Oreo147 said:

...I guess it's just the random nature of this bug... confusing...

 

I don’t think it’s random at all. Our installs differ in some significant (even if small) manner. You seem to have this issue frequently in missions you create and I have yet to experience it in missions I create. If it were inherent to DCS’s AI, then I should have experienced it by now given how often it happens to you.

 

My suspicion is that you have something installed that’s causing this. The usual suspect includes some mod but you don’t have any installed. I know you have a WWII module installed (Armour and Technics? or something like that) that I do not. I had to erase the reference to that in the P-47 tracks you provided in order to open them.

 

It doesn’t have to be that but that is one way I know our installations differ. That might be worth taking a look at. Just a thought.

Edited March 22, 2021 by Ironhand

[Oreo147]

12 hours ago, Ironhand said:

It doesn’t have to be that but that is one way I know our installations differ. That might be worth taking a look at.

 

I've taken a look, I have no mods installed right now and to be sure, I've also ran a repair. However, I might consider doing a full reinstall if the issue persists. Like you're saying, I don't think something else could really the the problem then. The module you are talking about btw is the official WWII assets pack I used in that mission. 

[Ironhand]

I knew it was a DCS module and figured out which one after posting. Seems I own it, too. Installed it overnight and did two quick tests this morning. No change. Soooo....

 

If I get a chance later I'll run a few more missions but it probably won't be today.

[BIGNEWY]

Hi

 

I am not seeing an issue, I think you just need to keep the speed down and have more consideration for your wingman, they will do their best to re-join but if you are to far ahead they will just go long trail. 

 

Slow your speed, use the radio to call close formation and be patient. 

 

thanks

[Ironhand]

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

Hi

 

I am not seeing an issue, I think you just need to keep the speed down and have more consideration for your wingman, they will do their best to re-join but if you are to far ahead they will just go long trail. 

 

Slow your speed, use the radio to call close formation and be patient. 

 

thanks

 

No. That wasn't his issue. Carrying the same speeds he was, they joined (usually) within 4 minutes of my wheels leaving the ground. And they joined even if it took bit longer. In his missions, they never joined, even when I took over the one track that played correctly for me and slowed to a crawl. Something else was going on but I couldn't reproduce it in missions I created.

[BIGNEWY]

I tried to reproduce today in my own mission and could not reproduce either, joined normal for me. Something strange is going on, I just dont know what it is. 

[Ironhand]

3 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

I tried to reproduce today in my own mission and could not reproduce either, joined normal for me. Something strange is going on, I just dont know what it is. 

 

Definitely puzzling, especially since the Su-27/Syria track did it for me as well...until I replaced his flight with one of my own. So it’s something real on his end. Just don’t know what it might be. Also don’t know if it effects more people than him. Hopefully he’ll update us at some point.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Ironhand

[Oreo147]

1 hour ago, Ironhand said:

Hopefully he’ll update us at some point.

 

The issue still persists and indeed, I haven't found anyone else with the same issue. I think that implies that it's something on my side. I've ran two repairs by now but I think I'll consider doing a full reinstall when I have the time. I'll keep you all updated 

[Ironhand]

Hopefully a reinstall fixes it for you.