Why loss of lock?

[GTengineer]

Can someone explain why I always tend to lose lock when engaging an enemy that goes defensive despite having him within radar azimuth limits (both vertical and horizontally). Say I shoot an AIM-7 at a Mig-29A, I keep my radar vertical scan from 0-10k feet, and I try to position myself slightly lower than him so my radar is looking up. Yet as soon as he starts diving below (2000 ft or so) my target designator starts blinking and I lose him and the AIM-7 (even if I am lower). I find it hard to believe that the F-15C radar can be so pathetic IRL. Is this a modeling problem or am I just doing something stupid here?

 

Every single engagement is the same BS, I put him defensive, he dives, lock is lost despite my best efforts to keep my radar and aircraft looking at him, missile is lost, good luck locking him up again while he shoots his barrage of missiles at you.

Edited August 13, 2008 by GTengineer

[GGTharos]

Congratulations. You've just discovered the notch - the price that has to paid for 'look down' capability. While in LO the notch is a bit .. overmodeled, it's a reasonable representation. Just stay below his altitude and you'll maintain lock.

 

You enter the notch by being below the enemy's altitude and putting them on your beam.

 

The difference between LO and reality:

In reality, a look-down situation where the angle is shallow enough that the ground is far away compared to the target will not result in a bad enough look-down situation to drop the lock.

In lock on you just have to be below enemy altitude (1' is enough).

[GTengineer]

GG. I understood the concept for a long time although I didn't know the name "notch". However can honestly every single engagement end up at rooftop levels? This seems ridiculous. The first thing the AI does when you shoot is dive straight down below 2000 ft (seems about 1000 ft actually). Wouldn't this IRL reduce his range at which he can fire at me?

Edited August 13, 2008 by GTengineer

[GGTharos]

Would you IRL reduce your range (and later run away) or take the enemy's missile in the face trying to get in range yourself? :)

 

Not that Ai are human in any way.

[GTengineer]

Would you IRL reduce your range (and later run away) or take the enemy's missile in the face trying to get in range yourself? :)

LOL, well put I suppose :D

 

Back to school :pilotfly:

 

BTW, thanks too bad I cant give you any more rep to you or RedTiger who have both been great help

[GGTharos]

No worries :)

 

And yeah, I know it's frustrating, especially with the AI's ability to both notch perfectly and have perfect SA on you.

[GTengineer]

The frustrating thing is that when really close to the ground it seems that no matter if u are a bit lower the same thing happens. It gets to a point where how much lower can you go? At some point your missile will just hit the ground upon launch. I am practicing with 2vs2 Mig-29A and I have seen them actually go as low as 600ft over water (initial engagement start at aroun 10,000ft).

[GGTharos]

So long as you keep them defensive you can keep closing and hit them with your sidewinders.

 

No need to mow the lawn. :)

[GTengineer]

So long as you keep them defensive you can keep closing and hit them with your sidewinders.

 

I think this is one of the mistakes I was making. I was putting to much faith on my missiles/shots and standing back waiting for a hit. Always keeping him on my beam. The problem was that as soon as my missile missed (or the AI which knows immediately when your missile misses and it is safe to turn into me) would turn into me and put me on the defensive. What I am doing now is as follows:

 

1) climb a little (2-3K over him) to get a better firing advantage, and as soon as I get a tone I fire my AIM-7. This missile for sure will miss but at least I put him on the defensive.

2) Immediately after firing, I put him on my beam and start descending to notch him. I have noticed that if I keep flying straight towards him he will keep flying straight too (despite my missile launch) so he can get a shot in. This way he never gets that initial shot before he goes defensive.

3) As soon as he goes defensive I hit afterburner towards him, while maintining to notch him.

4) Once I get closer I fire a second AIM-7. At this point he usually gets a shot in at me (R-27R) and I once again beam him while keeping him locked and dispensing a buttload of chaff.

5) Finally I turn into him again and at this point it is either a heater or sparrow fight. Hopefully he is still defensive and easy to kill.

 

So in conclusion I need to increase the speed of my merge.

 

No need to mow the lawn. :)

 

LOL, when I first started flying LOMAC, I remember I was really low and I kept firing my a2a slammers and for the love of God I could not see them? So I kept thinking WTF is going on! heh since I don't play with external views I could not see them exploding below me. Noob story over :megalol:

Edited August 13, 2008 by GTengineer

[GGTharos]

Just to correct a couple things; when you keep a lock on him, it's almost impossible to notch; you're putting him on the gimbals and because you have a SARH missile in the air, you are executing an F-Pole. Beaming means putting him on your 3-9, if you keep lock 2-10 is the farthest you'll go :)

 

Anyway, glad to see you're starting to get better at it!

 

While altitude barely counts for a range advantage in LO (Well, it does, but I won't go into how it ... doesn't count as much as it should) you might want to consider a 5k+ pop-up for your launch, then a hard dive.

[GTengineer]

GG, yeah I guess I don't completely "beam" as it is not on 3-9 but 2-10 instead. I didn't know there was yet another term for this :). But I do keep a lock on him.

 

My first F-pole however is to simply reduce the merge speed so he cannot get that first shot before he has to go defensive due to my AIM-7 coming at him.

Edited August 13, 2008 by GTengineer

[GGTharos]

That is almost exactly what an F-Pole is. Specifically, your F-Pole is longer than his F-Pole ... ;)

 

My first F-pole however is to simply reduce the merge speed so he cannot get that first shot before he has to go defensive due to my AIM-7 coming at him.

[Starlight]

Can someone explain why I always tend to lose lock when engaging an enemy that goes defensive despite having him within radar azimuth limits (both vertical and horizontally). Say I shoot an AIM-7 at a Mig-29A, I keep my radar vertical scan from 0-10k feet, and I try to position myself slightly lower than him so my radar is looking up. Yet as soon as he starts diving below (2000 ft or so) my target designator starts blinking and I lose him and the AIM-7 (even if I am lower). I find it hard to believe that the F-15C radar can be so pathetic IRL. Is this a modeling problem or am I just doing something stupid here?

 

Every single engagement is the same BS, I put him defensive, he dives, lock is lost despite my best efforts to keep my radar and aircraft looking at him, missile is lost, good luck locking him up again while he shoots his barrage of missiles at you.

 

It's quite some time that I don't play LO, anyway I'll check to have radar cover on the bandit. i.e. check your radar antenna elevation because sometimes bandits just slip below your radar coverage, specially in very close combat. F-15s should have sufficient lookdown capabilities for such engagements, at least in RL... pilots in Bitburg claimed that they were able to lock onto fast cars on freeways.

that's my 2c...

[RedTiger]

 

While altitude barely counts for a range advantage in LO (Well, it does, but I won't go into how it ... doesn't count as much as it should) you might want to consider a 5k+ pop-up for your launch, then a hard dive.

 

OT here, don't mean to hijack the thread, but I have a new-found respect for LOMAC's modeling of the Aim-120...well, range-wise I do. I discovered that at 40k feet+ and Mach 1 you can achieve an Rmax launch of 30 nm, the lesser of the two commonly stated max ranges. Will it hit anything? No (and rightfully so), but hey, the Rmax range looks better. :D And I only have to spend 15 minutes climb at 15 degrees and stay in full burner the entire time to achieve this range! :P

Edited August 13, 2008 by RedTiger

[GGTharos]

OT here, don't mean to hijack the thread, but I have a new-found respect for LOMAC's modeling of the Aim-120...well, range-wise I do. I discovered that at 40k feet+ and Mach 1 you can achieve an Rmax launch of 30 nm, the lesser of the two commonly stated max ranges. Will it hit anything? No (and rightfully so), but hey, the Rmax range looks better. :D And I only have to spend 15 minutes climb at 15 degrees and stay in full burner the entire time to achieve this range! :P

 

 

Really? I takes me a little over 3 minutes ... ;)

 

And I've got a kill at 60nm! Against a player! ;) But you will rarely find someone trying to fly into your 120 at 40k+ so ... the one and only!

[RedTiger]

Maybe I shoulda said "1 hour at a 5 degree climb" for MORE exaggeration. :P

[S77th-konkussion]

:D AFK ?

 

That's not a shot at you, BTW. Because seriously- that's pathetic.

[GGTharos]

Haha, not even!

 

He made a few mistakes:

 

1. He assumed I wouldn't fire from this far.

2. He turned on his jammer just before I launched

3. He continued a high-altitude intercept on me with his jammer on.

 

As you know, 'up there' you don't get to kinematically ditch missiles, and the jammer ensures that you won't get the warning from the AMRAAM radar until it's 3.5nm away, which at the given closure equates to about 6-7 sec of warning time.

 

Take away 2.5 sec of being stunned, consider a sustained turn rate of 5 deg/sec and you have your answer! :D

[S77th-konkussion]

I think my best is around 50 km or so with an ER, but this was a pure HOJ shot- also @ altitude. I doubt he ever knew it was there.

[GGTharos]

50km in LO is still pretty good - esp. with a SARH in HoJ - did you drop into burn-through at the last moment, or did he fly into it? Because you pretty much have to fly into a HoJ SARH if it homes in on HoJ all the way :D

 

I got a 27nm kill with a high-low sparrow shot against someone jamming. I ranged him and then I made a best guess as to his speed, he dropped into burn-through almost as I had predicted - the Sparrow, travelling in HoJ until then had stayed high and kept a lot of its speed, so it made a 3nm dive onto the target with minimal warning. It hit just as he was about to enter the notch.

[RvEYoda]

Haha, not even!

 

He made a few mistakes:

 

1. He assumed I wouldn't fire from this far.

2. He turned on his jammer just before I launched

3. He continued a high-altitude intercept on me with his jammer on.

 

As you know, 'up there' you don't get to kinematically ditch missiles, and the jammer ensures that you won't get the warning from the AMRAAM radar until it's 3.5nm away, which at the given closure equates to about 6-7 sec of warning time.

 

Take away 2.5 sec of being stunned, consider a sustained turn rate of 5 deg/sec and you have your answer! :D

 

Yeah this is a classic.

I did it once too, not as far as GG though.

 

So funny to see the log afterwards where I actually had landed before my

missile hit the target :P

[S77th-konkussion]

50km in LO is still pretty good - esp. with a SARH in HoJ - did you drop into burn-through at the last moment, or did he fly into it? Because you pretty much have to fly into a HoJ SARH if it homes in on HoJ all the way :D

 

I got a 27nm kill with a high-low sparrow shot against someone jamming. I ranged him and then I made a best guess as to his speed, he dropped into burn-through almost as I had predicted - the Sparrow, travelling in HoJ until then had stayed high and kept a lot of its speed, so it made a 3nm dive onto the target with minimal warning. It hit just as he was about to enter the notch.

 

I'm not sure. I would guess he was oblivious/ not educated to the threat warnings in his cockpit, and moving at a good clip. I don't even know what plane he was flying or who he was. (S77th server had no kill messages)

 

I had burn through symbology up- but just for a few seconds.

 

I just remember knowing that I shot at a long range just to (hopefully) freak him out when the lock warnings lit up. I was pretty shocked to see the black smoke about .... 2 minutes later.

[GGTharos]

These are all classics :D

 

Yeah, if you dropped into burn-through even for a couple seconds, you instantly get a far more accurate shot ... as the missile transitions to PN guidance :D