AI aircraft magically know when you fire

[Father Cool]

As per the title, when using the AIM54's fired in TWS the enemy AI immediately start to deploy chaff and start making defensive manoeuvres even at long range. My understanding is that the enemy aircraft should not have any warning that the missile was launched until the 54 goes pitbull at approx. 16 seconds from impact. This is not the case.

 

An example from one of our sorties last night. When I launch I am approx 28nm from the target, who immediately starts pumping out chaff indicating that he knows the missile is coming.

 

Launch (07:29:01)

 

Bandit View (07:29:01)

 

First Chaff release 2 seconds later (07:29:03)

 

Bandit pulls its first manoeuvre 14 seconds later, AIM 54 still 19.29nm away (07:29:17)

 

After 6 more seconds the Bandit is moving to a notching aspect at which point I lost the track on my TID and the 54 is essentially now a dead stick (07:29:23)

 

3 Seconds previously, the Bandits wingman had detected my second AIM 54 launch fired at him and started dropping chaff (07:29:20)

 

By a further 10 seconds (54 still at 18.38nm) the second Bandit had pulled to notch the radar and again and once again he has dropped from my TID (07:29:30)

 

Since both AIM 54s are now dead sticks they both miss and the Bandits are now in a position to return fire and forcing myself and my wingman to go defensive. You can also see in this picture that my wingman Boos missiles have been dealt with in a similar manner to the ones that I fired. (07:29:58)

 

Now all's fair in love and war and all that but the fact that the enemy can react instantly to a missile that is designed to not alert the enemy until it is almost too late is not working as intended and turns the Phoenix into a smouldering pile of feathers. The fact that the F14 has very little options for other missiles, the long range, keeping the enemy on its toes beyond their weapons envelope, is lacking somewhat due to the way that the AI is behaving. We may as well be carrying 6 sparrows, and they aren't any better for other reasons but that's another story.

 

Is there any way that ED can get this working correctly? Surely there is a way to only feed code to the AI fighters that they would actually know about? it works for player instruments so why not for AI?

 

Regards

FC

Edited March 10, 2021 by Father Cool

[Noctrach]

While I agree that there is a problem with the omniscience of AI, I do think it's important to bring some distinction.

 

The AIM-54, and the AIM-54A in particular, is a huge smoky lamppost of doom. An aware pilot would 100% commit to defensive behaviours as soon as they see the telltale trail of the launched and lofting Phoenix. So I'd fully expect AI to behave this way within say... 30-40 miles.

 

The key problem here is how incredibly binary the AI behaviours within DCS are.

 

Different difficulty settings only adjust factors such as range, delay and inaccuracy. You can even read this back in the LUA files.

An ACE AI will be able to level bomb with pinpoint accuracy in the F-5 at 30 knots crosswind, spot you immediately when you reach about 10 miles and respond instantaneously to every missile launch.

A RECRUIT AI will have an inherent inaccuracy in an F-18 with perfect weather, take a couple seconds to spot you and respond slowly to threats.

However, once the behaviour is initiated both will be absolutely perfectly aware of everything you do, even if you are in a blind spot.

 

The second issue is the lack of sensor differentiation. A radar is a radar, an RWR is an RWR.

An F-5 will have the same detection capabilities as a Su-27. A MiG-21 will have the same directional threat awareness as an F-16.

 

I wouldn't expect this to change anytime soon, as it's not "bugged" per se. It's simply a result of 20-year-old AI code that's in very dire need of a complete overhaul.

[Father Cool]

I understand what you are saying and agree in the most part but to say it isn't bugged is laughable really. You are right, the code needs some work in that respect.

 

The AI reacts as though a switch has been flicked when you press the trigger. To say the pilot would see the aim 54 launch 40 miles away and react instantly doesn't wash with me. Even if the pilot was that aware and could see that in real life, although visibilitywould need to be 100% clear and perfect, he wouldn't necessarily see it in game, I can barely tell a missile has been launched against me in a head on aspect from a bandit less than 15nm away. As the 54 lofts up you may have a point to some degree although my shots shown above barely lofted as the targets were closing fast less than 30nm away.

 

The AI should be on a level playing field as a player as far as visibility and warnings are concerned, anything else is a bug IMO. Currently I don't believe it is.

 

Regards

FC

[PoorOldSpike]

I've griped about this in the past when the AI planes instantly popped flares when I fired Sidewinders at them, but people replied saying that's just the way it is in DCS and there's no fix.

[Father Cool]

It is the way it is, but it shouldn't be really and costs dearly in situations such as our groups multi-squadron mission nights where we are providing CAP for several other squadrons with differing objectives. I would prefer that people didn't just bury their head in the sand and accept it.

[M1Combat]

I suspect this is reasonable close to what would happen IRL.  Given good weather and all that anyhow...

 

I mean..  If you've already been detected then you can bet that whoever their team's best missile spotter is will be keeping an eagle eye on you.  Maybe even with binoculars...

 

So I don't think that within 30 miles, in a situation where you're already known... you have ANY expectation of a surprise launch at all.

 

Inclement weather?  Sure.

 

More range?  Sure...  and that one is subjective.  I'm sure there are pilots without perfect vision :).

 

I think the whole game changes when you're actually in a situation where the thing that someone launches can ACTUALLY kill you.  You're going to take whatever steps necessary to be sure you know it's a threat immediately.

 

Maybe I'm wrong..  that's fine...  but I feel like if I were up there looking at a known Phoenix launch capable fighter...  I'd be keeping a VERY close eye on the ****er...

[Father Cool]

IRL the enemy used to turn and run when they saw an F14 on radar, they didn't wait for a 'maybe' visual launch of a phoenix with binoculars. As in game the enemy has way more balls than RL pilots I would suggest that in the interest of fairness that they don't have bionic awareness and vision as well.

[Noctrach]

Really though, cranking/notching and chaffing upon a missile launch isnt a bug. I wouldn't dream of being nose-hot on any ARH platform inside 30 miles.

Go to any organised PvP event and people will be doing much worse, much sooner.

 

It's simplistic and immersion-breaking behaviour for sure. Luckily its also offset by the sheer brainlessness of their defensive manoeuvres. Shouldn't be hard to close the kill.

I'd like to see the entirety of the AI massively overhauled but in terms of bugs there's bigger fish to fry in the near term. cough EWAR mechanics cough

[Noctrach]

On 3/10/2021 at 11:28 PM, PoorOldSpike said:

I've griped about this in the past when the AI planes instantly popped flares when I fired Sidewinders at them, but people replied saying that's just the way it is in DCS and there's no fix.

 

Honestly if you're nose hot within IR missile range any combat pilot worth his salt would be doing the same. IR launches are pretty easy to spot.

I think this is more of an expectations problem because so many players in modern jets are heads down staring pointlessly at a radar or datalink page instead of eyes out for threats.

Take a page from the AI on this one... it's called a heads up display for a reason :P

[Father Cool]

On 3/12/2021 at 3:49 PM, Noctrach said:

Really though, cranking/notching and chaffing upon a missile launch isnt a bug. I wouldn't dream of being nose-hot on any ARH platform inside 30 miles.

Go to any organised PvP event and people will be doing much worse, much sooner.

 

It's simplistic and immersion-breaking behaviour for sure. Luckily its also offset by the sheer brainlessness of their defensive manoeuvres. Shouldn't be hard to close the kill.

I'd like to see the entirety of the AI massively overhauled but in terms of bugs there's bigger fish to fry in the near term. cough EWAR mechanics cough

 

Its not the fact that they notch or crank or whatever its the fact that as soon as you drop it off the rail the AI say's defence mode activated. If they went defensive or whatever before the shot was fired or whatever than that would be great because it would indicate forward thinking and show that the AI isn't magically aware of your shot and is being cautious of your potential actions. But they don't they wait until you fired and then perfectly notch the AWG 9 so that the 54 drops its lock and turns dead stick before ever having a chance to go pitbull and make the bandit work.

 

If it were a Sparrow or IR missile that triggered a launch warning at short range then yes I would agree about them immediately going defensive, a phoenix fired in TWS with no launch warning? not at all, my example above was 30nm because that's generally what we do these days to get any chance of hitting them, but quite frankly this issue is worse the further away you launch. Regardless of range they still notch and go defensive as soon as you pull the trigger, may as well be firing dollar bills at them for the good the 54 will do at that range.

 

As for looking out of the window, I do, all the time, and IR launches aren't my issue. Visually you cant see anything at 30nm definitely nothing any further any than that, I can't visually see a plane at all (unless its con trailing) at more than 5nm (we don't have any labels on at all) and even in that range in a hot aspect I can't see a missile launch visually unless/until it turns to try and lead you. Head on its just a dot that's not even rendered yet and would certainly be invisible for a bandit >30nm away. The whole point of the 54 is that its pretty much a stealth long range launch weapon until it goes active (obviously you would see any smoke if were lofting high and you were looking straight at it (I have also had con trails/smoke trails not render for me directly at them but only when I look to the side so they are peripheral which is odd and another issue entirely) but not instantly and not at all with the smokeless variety of 54 which makes no difference to the AI seeing it where it should). Yet the bandit still sees it and always the instant that you fire.

 

Even the most switched on pilot cannot faultlessly monitor visually every missile launched and react instantly with terminator precision whilst handling everything else. Yet the AI does with ease. It's a bug.

[M1Combat]

I mean...  I feel for you...  You're right it shouldn't break the "moment" of the launch...  that's a bit suspect.  They should start a timer when you launch (if AI is aware of you) and they should break maybe between .5 and 1.5 seconds after launch???

 

But they shouldn't act like a noob human player ;)...

 

As far as random Crazy Ivan's...  Nah.  Energy is too valuable friend :).  I'd rather break a little later than break too many times.

[nighthawk2174]

I think it should be dependent on a few factors when the AI gets to know if its been shot on:

 

1)Is the missile in the AI fov?  Like with jester the AI should have a fov where it can see stuff, with a very high rate but small zone of detection.  And a zone which rate drops off rapidly in exchange for a large zone.  Blocked by clouds and cockpit as well ofc.

2)Day/Night?  At night you would be able to see the motor from quite some range even farther off the axis of highest resolution, especially with NVG's.  But controls will essentially be invisible (except with NVG to a still somewhat limited extent).  While the reverse is true during the day.

3)Is the missile smokey?  If not then even if it is in the fov it won't trigger the evasion algo.  Should be a factor of smokeness and launch range that plays into this as well.  An A model phoenix even though smokey when launched at extreme range is not going to be seen.

4)Is the missile detected by sensors? RWR? TGP? Radar? MAWS?  All are sensors that can trigger the evasion algo.

 

This imo is the minimum that ED needs to have for good AI.  And I don't think it'd be too hard to code either, maybe a bit of a hit on performance in huge AI missions but i have no doubt its possible to do.

Edited March 16, 2021 by nighthawk2174

[KlarSnow]

If a single AIM-54 is launched at long range in TWS, you do not know if it was shot at you or your wingman. The issue here is that the AI knows its been targeted and fired upon immediately. If we are going with the logic of the AI can see the missile come off the rail, then EVERY AI the AWG-9 is illuminating that is "close enough" to see the launch should also IMMEDIATELY defend, not just the guy who is actually getting targeted.

Either that or All of them should ignore it and continue in until the missile goes active, or some other defensive checkpoint.

 

[Cmptohocah]

17 hours ago, KlarSnow said:

If a single AIM-54 is launched at long range in TWS, you do not know if it was shot at you or your wingman. The issue here is that the AI knows its been targeted and fired upon immediately. If we are going with the logic of the AI can see the missile come off the rail, then EVERY AI the AWG-9 is illuminating that is "close enough" to see the launch should also IMMEDIATELY defend, not just the guy who is actually getting targeted.

Either that or All of them should ignore it and continue in until the missile goes active, or some other defensive checkpoint.

 

AI know everything and see everything. 

[Hodo]

On 3/10/2021 at 4:00 AM, Father Cool said:

As per the title, when using the AIM54's fired in TWS the enemy AI immediately start to deploy chaff and start making defensive manoeuvres even at long range. My understanding is that the enemy aircraft should not have any warning that the missile was launched until the 54 goes pitbull at approx. 16 seconds from impact. This is not the case.

 

An example from one of our sorties last night. When I launch I am approx 28nm from the target, who immediately starts pumping out chaff indicating that he knows the missile is coming.

 

Launch (07:29:01)

 

Bandit View (07:29:01)

 

First Chaff release 2 seconds later (07:29:03)

 

Bandit pulls its first manoeuvre 14 seconds later, AIM 54 still 19.29nm away (07:29:17)

 

After 6 more seconds the Bandit is moving to a notching aspect at which point I lost the track on my TID and the 54 is essentially now a dead stick (07:29:23)

 

3 Seconds previously, the Bandits wingman had detected my second AIM 54 launch fired at him and started dropping chaff (07:29:20)

 

By a further 10 seconds (54 still at 18.38nm) the second Bandit had pulled to notch the radar and again and once again he has dropped from my TID (07:29:30)

 

Since both AIM 54s are now dead sticks they both miss and the Bandits are now in a position to return fire and forcing myself and my wingman to go defensive. You can also see in this picture that my wingman Boos missiles have been dealt with in a similar manner to the ones that I fired. (07:29:58)

 

Now all's fair in love and war and all that but the fact that the enemy can react instantly to a missile that is designed to not alert the enemy until it is almost too late is not working as intended and turns the Phoenix into a smouldering pile of feathers. The fact that the F14 has very little options for other missiles, the long range, keeping the enemy on its toes beyond their weapons envelope, is lacking somewhat due to the way that the AI is behaving. We may as well be carrying 6 sparrows, and they aren't any better for other reasons but that's another story.

 

Is there any way that ED can get this working correctly? Surely there is a way to only feed code to the AI fighters that they would actually know about? it works for player instruments so why not for AI?

 

Regards

FC

 

I believe the Russian aircraft MiG-29 Su-27/33, J-11, JF-17 and Mirage 2000c all have a MWS. Which detects the IR bloom of a missile launch.

[WinterH]

3 hours ago, Hodo said:

I believe the Russian aircraft MiG-29 Su-27/33, J-11, JF-17 and Mirage 2000c all have a MWS. Which detects the IR bloom of a missile launch.

Not really. In DCS, only JF-17 and Mirage 2000C have it among the ones you have listed.

[Hodo]

35 minutes ago, WinterH said:

Not really. In DCS, only JF-17 and Mirage 2000C have it among the ones you have listed.

Odd I am sure I have had a missile launch warning in my 25A/T, 29S and 27.  

[dundun92]

19 minutes ago, Hodo said:

Odd I am sure I have had a missile launch warning in my 25A/T, 29S and 27. 

you have the radio assist on

[WinterH]

9 hours ago, Hodo said:

Odd I am sure I have had a missile launch warning in my 25A/T, 29S and 27.  

You will get a launch tone from the RWR in case of a radar guided missile tracking you. But that's not a MWS that detects a missile launch plume, it is RWR recognizing a STT radar track on you, either from an active radar missile's own radar, or from radar of an aircraft that is guiding a semi active radar guided missile on you.

 

As far as I know currently only MWS equipped modules in DCS are A-10C (and A-10C II), JF-17, and Mirage 2000C. And in Mirage's case the system actually never went operational on C version IRL as far as I know, but is rather used on D. Not sure the situation with JF-17 if it's also a "let's include it anyway" kinda deal or not, because it seems the JF-17 we have in DCS is bit of a mixed plane between block 1 and block 2.

 

[Hodo]

9 hours ago, WinterH said:

You will get a launch tone from the RWR in case of a radar guided missile tracking you. But that's not a MWS that detects a missile launch plume, it is RWR recognizing a STT radar track on you, either from an active radar missile's own radar, or from radar of an aircraft that is guiding a semi active radar guided missile on you.

 

As far as I know currently only MWS equipped modules in DCS are A-10C (and A-10C II), JF-17, and Mirage 2000C. And in Mirage's case the system actually never went operational on C version IRL as far as I know, but is rather used on D. Not sure the situation with JF-17 if it's also a "let's include it anyway" kinda deal or not, because it seems the JF-17 we have in DCS is bit of a mixed plane between block 1 and block 2.

 

From my research both the Mirage and the JF have or had the MWS.  

 

18 hours ago, dundun92 said:

you have the radio assist on

Don't have radio assists on.  Not allowed on most of the servers I play on.

[WinterH]

34 minutes ago, Hodo said:

From my research both the Mirage and the JF have or had the MWS

Mirage 2000D does, N too probably, maybe even later interceptor/multirole versions, but not the C.

[Biggus]

Is the existence of MWS relevant to the discussion if every AI aircraft type behaves in the way described?

 

This psychic AI behavior has been reported a few times before now, and each time the answer has been 'working as intended'.  Given the range of the average 120C shot, it probably wasn't that big a deal a couple of years ago.  But launching a 54C at 50nm in TWS and then seeing the AI dump chaff as the missile literally leaves the rail is quite infuriating.  Within the current implementation of the AI though, I can't see this improving.

[Mandellorian]

If its modelled accurately...be below the target so the radar on the tomcat is looking up and it shouldn`t be possible to notch it, the system should only apply the notch if it can see ground clutter. As for MWS...they are a lot shorter ranged than people seem to think. Slightly better than 3rd generation MANPAD range for most of them. The simple answer is DCS has always had inferior AI, they had to give them advantages to stop them being wiped out by even beginner humans. Its why the AI can do things like ignore physics, guide SARH missiles without having to point anywhere near you and know instantly where you are at all times. Unfortunately they have been playing with the missile code for the Human missiles and utterly messed it up which is why you will see a lot of missiles heading off into space again which makes it even worse and more noticeable.

[Father Cool]

Yes that would work fine if the bandit didn't just dump chaff, turn 90 degrees and head for the deck as soon as the missile comes off the rail.

[Khegrow]

The problem is not only about the magic-dodges and chaffs (at any time.. and aspect..)
Enemy AI will also use JAMMER against TWS or Softlocks (RWS too and no I don't mean STT).