can not reproduce Autopilot PITCH switch - throttle bindings do not work

[FatherAnolev]

I have mapped both the "Autopilot PITCH" (up and down) as well as the "Autopilot ROLL" (up and down) to four separate buttons on my throttle.

 

The up and down actions for "Autopilot ROLL" behave as expected - I can cycle that switch up and down.

 

But the up and down actions for "Autopilot PITCH" do not work. I can visibly see the briefest of movements when I trigger the buttons in question, but the switch doesn't stay in either the up or down position - it immediately returns to center.

 

I am using a VIRPIL CM3 throttle (the latest).

 

I have tried different buttons on the same throttle (e.g. swapping the PITCH and ROLL assignments around), but this does not address the issue. No matter which physical throttle buttons that I use, the behavior of the PITCH switch remains the same.

[BIGNEWY]

Strange it seems to be working as intended for me. 

 

Clear the assigned bindings a redo them, check for double bindings. 

 

if you still have the issue please attach a track replay on the off chance we can see something we are missing in our attempts. 

 

thank you

[Florence201]

Daft question, but 1 thing that will stop you connecting the Autopilot is the Air Refuelling door open. Can you confirm the RDY Blue light in the right side HUD  indexer isn't showing (ensure brightness is turned up)? 

[FatherAnolev]

Thanks for your quick response!

 

After some more testing, this is what I have found:

1. When I test Autopilot PITCH with EITHER of my throttle's "twisting knobs" (which actually send different button presses when you turn it in either direction), it does NOT work.
2. When I test Autopilot ROLL with the same exact two "twisting knobs", it DOES work.
3. When I test Autopilot PITCH with two depressable buttons, it DOES work.

So there's just some sort of problem with PITCH (only) and with "twisting knobs" (only). Weird that the ROLL switch does NOT exhibit the same behavior!

 

I've gone into my VPC config tool, and also the joystick tester app, and neither one exhibits any "odd" behavior.

 

I have a track file, but it's 7 MB (too big to attach, and I tried zipping it, but it didn't shrink) ... so here it is via Google Drive instead (I hope that's OK!)

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uykshEiN-2ZMfNQfgcx3zR59L3Rxtell/view?usp=sharing

 

Here's what the track file should show:

 

1. Started mission in the air
2. Tried to use knob #1 to change Autopilot PITCH up and down - did not work
3. Tried to use knob #2 to change Autopilot ROLL up and down - worked correctly
4. Went into my settings, and flip-flopped the knobs
5. Tried to use knob #1 to change Autopilot ROLL up and down - worked correctly
6. Tried to use knob #2 to change Autopilot PITCH up and down - did not work
7. Went into my settings, and tried two push-buttons in place of knob for Autopilot PITCH up/down
8. Tried to use push-buttons to change Autopilot PITCH up and down - worked correctly
9. Ended mission

 

(Oh, and @Florence201, no the air refueling door was NOT open, but thanks for pointing that out ... good to know for future reference!)

 

Edited March 9, 2021 by FatherAnolev
Added step-by-step track file explanation

[FatherAnolev]

One more thing to add:

 

In addition to working correctly for Autopilot ROLL, I have confirmed that both of the throttle knobs in question also work correctly for other functions, such as the F/A-18 COM1 and COM2 frequencies. So this does NOT appear to be a hardware nor driver issue.

 

<shrug>

 

In any case, since I have a workaround (using different buttons for this purpose), I'll just do that instead! 

 

[anlq]

I have the same problem, binding not working with Pitch. I'm using TM Warthog with TARGET software. If I press keyboard binding, it works, but it doesn't work with TARGET on Pulse Mode, If I use Hold Mode on TARGET it works but this binding will block other functions. @BIGNEWY

 

Edited March 20, 2021 by anlq

[BIGNEWY]

Not sure what we can do about this if anything. Sounds like a problem with T.A.R.G.E.T software. 

 

I stopped using T.A.R.G.E.T many years ago and bind directly to DCS 

[FatherAnolev]

But I am NOT using T.A.R.G.E.T. software.

 

Not sure if you saw my detailed response (above) describing exactly what I did to recreate the problem. I believe that my debugging steps point to this being a software problem, not a hardware or driver problem.

[BIGNEWY]

On 3/20/2021 at 1:58 PM, FatherAnolev said:

But I am NOT using T.A.R.G.E.T. software.

 

Not sure if you saw my detailed response (above) describing exactly what I did to recreate the problem. I believe that my debugging steps point to this being a software problem, not a hardware or driver problem.

 

yes i have seen your detailed report, I was replying to anlq about T.A.R.G.E.T 

 

I will take another look today, at your issue. 

 

can you attach a track replay, just in case I am missing something obvious

 

thanks

[FatherAnolev]

3 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

 

yes i have seen your detailed report, I was replying to anlq about T.A.R.G.E.T 

 

I will take another look today, at your issue. 

 

can you attach a track replay, just in case I am missing something obvious

 

thanks

 

Yes, I attached one to my post via Google Drive (download link).

 

It was 7MB in size (even zipped), so I wasn't able to attache it here (5 MB limit). Not sure why it was so big, as it was relatively quick ... 

 

If you'd recommend a different method (or for me to recreate it again), just let me know.

 

Thanks!

[BIGNEWY]

Thanks the track was fine, and I can see you are having problems as the switch resets straight away.

 

But I am unable to reproduce, when I take control of the track it works correctly for me, via mouse and a switch bind. 

 

Can you check again for double inputs. 

 

it maybe worth creating a new profile, 

 

C:\Users\yourname\Saved Games\DCS.openbeta\Config\Input\F-16C_50

 

rename it to 

 

C:\Users\yourname\Saved Games\DCS.openbeta\Config\Input\F-16C_50backup

 

then restart dcs and redo all bindings and test again. 

 

thanks

[FatherAnolev]

Thanks for verifying.

 

I'll try that again as soon as I can (a bit later today) and will report back!

[FatherAnolev]

OK, I've tested again, following these steps:

1. Cleared all of my bindings across all of my input devices, including the keyboard (except for "ESC" to end the mission), mouse (so I could test manual interaction), and TrackIR (so that I could view the cockpit controls in question).
2. Bound the dial in question to the A/P PITCH control.
3. Started a mission in the air.
4. Attempted to use the dial in question - FAIL.
5. Switched to another dial - FAIL.
6. Bound the first dial to A/P ROLL instead, tested that - SUCCESS.
7. Bound the second dial to A/P ROLL, test that - SUCCESS.

So I'm at a loss. Both dials fail with A/P PITCH, but they both succeed with A/P ROLL.

 

And this was after clearing all bindings across all input devices to ensure no conflicts.

 

Link to track file (again, too big for upload ... are they ever smaller than 5MB?): 

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wCTWTYW56uDs9_jju_pk_QvZBchr0Nb2/view?usp=sharing

 

[BIGNEWY]

For smaller tracks just pick a blank mission with just the aircraft on. Using instant action for example with have other assets in the mission making it larger. 

 

I am still not able to reproduce and I am at a loss at the moment. 

 

Can you check your device in windows calibration, check if there is any flicker on the buttons when pressed. 

 

thank you

[FatherAnolev]

Thanks for that tip - I will use it to make smaller tracks in the future.

 

I am at a loss as well, and it's not a "big deal" since I have plenty of other buttons to work with. I just wanted to call it to your attention in case it was something that might be affecting other users. By the way, technically I believe that these are "rotary encoder" dials. So they're not buttons per se ... they twist ... but they behave like buttons, as opposed to axes. Just wanted to be clear, in case that makes a difference.

 

I don't see flicker when using the VPC testing tool.

 

What's very odd is that the dials work fine on different cockpit controls (namely the ROLL switch, but also in the F-18 on the comms knobs). As far as I can tell it's just that one switch (PITCH) that's exhibiting odd behavior.

 

<shrug>

 

Feel free to close this as non-reproducible. But if you get your hands on the same throttle at some point (Virpil's latest, the CM3), maybe give it a shot.

 

Thanks for your efforts!

[BIGNEWY]

With rotary encoders sometimes they are not simple on / off, the ratio can be adjusted on rotary encoders. 

[FatherAnolev]

10 minutes ago, Bozo_ said:

is the autopilot coupling during refuelling will be available on the next F16 updates ?

 

I assume that you replied to this (unrelated) thread on accident. 

44 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

With rotary encoders sometimes they are not simple on / off, the ratio can be adjusted on rotary encoders. 

 

I'll see if I can change that in my joystick config app.

 

But that still doesn't explain why this only fails on the PITCH switch, but not any others (including the ROLL switch, which is literally right next to it in the cockpit heheh).

 

[BIGNEWY]

I moved Bozo post as it was not related to the thread. 

 

Your issue is still a mystery to me sorry.

[FatherAnolev]

I've just realized what makes the PITCH switch different from others ... it's "spring loaded". 

 

Other switches (including ROLL) do not automatically spring back on you based upon what the aircraft is doing. But the PITCH switch will automatically re-center / reset itself if you (for example) bank too far, or pull to many G's. Related, with "spring back" switches like PITCH, you can hold them up/down, but once you release them, they spring back ... which can be simulated with a button push (hold down the button on the joystick), but not with a rotary encoder (which is an immediate on/off).

 

Does that make sense?

 

That's just my theory here ... but it seems to fit. And confirms that this is probably not a bug, but rather working as designed. Switches with springs shouldn't be mapped to logical buttons that can't be "held down".

[desertowl]

The A/P Pitch switch is indeed defined as a different (and seemingly unique to the f16) as spring loaded 3 way toggle, while the A/P Roll is defined as a normal 3 way toggle.

In reality, it is electrically held 3 way toggle. This definition causes weird behavior, also in DCS-BIOS for example.

 

If someone has more insight on the issue it will be very appritiated.

Edited March 25, 2021 by desertowl