Cyclic/Collective controls?

[kengou]

Anybody have a diagram or list or the controls on the cyclic/collective so we can start thinking about our HOTAS bindings? Looks like there's a lot of them!

[HammerUK9]

Nabbed these out of my old EECH manual

[bies]

This shown above is from original AH-64A helicopter from the Cold War and Desert Storm.

 

 

In DCS there will be AH-64D variant from 2002 with different controls and lot more hats and switches. Collective has even "double grip" because apparently it was impossible to fit all the controls in one grip.

 

 

Edited January 20, 2021 by bies

[kengou]

Found these combing through the army manual. They like to spread out the diagrams between systems so it's going to take time coming up with a cohesive overview of all functions.

 

 

[Dragon1-1]

That collective grip looks absurd - I love it.

 

Someone should make a 3D model for printing. That looks like it'd be fun to build.  

[vigilante87]

The collective grip was designed the way it was because it has a flight grip(bottom) and mission grip (top). The mission grip is the pilots version of the TEDAC handles, but missing things like slew control for the TADS and some stuff with the laser. 

[kotor633]

Oh shit! How should all this be mapped in DCS ...? Will be interesting!

[Bedouin]

2 hours ago, kotor633 said:

Oh shit! How should all this be mapped in DCS ...? Will be interesting!

 

Guessing we need to use a modifier to get all Collective mapped to our throttle.. 

[vigilante87]

On 1/20/2021 at 8:20 AM, kengou said:

Found these combing through the army manual. They like to spread out the diagrams between systems so it's going to take time coming up with a cohesive overview of all functions.

 

 

I can help you all out.  I'm sure you'll get a decent guide from casmo at some point.

 

Cyclic button Functions

(top left)Force trim/hold mode switch: this is your trim button. It also has altitude and attitude hold
(top middle)Weapon Action Switch(WAS): lets you select your freedom setting. i.e.- gun, missiles, rockets
(top right)Symbology select switch: Cruise, Transition, Hover and bob up modes. 
(top center): counter measures button
(left): Mic switch: both ICS and COMM
(trigger): freedom button
(bottom pinky button): no no switch. Pretty much deactivates your FMC

Collective, mission grip

 

(top) FCR scan size: Think of this as narrowing or widening your scan in normal A/A radars. Same concept 
(top left) FCR mode switch: switch between ground, air, terrain modes

(center) cursor controller: its your fancy thing to control the cursor on the MFDs. Has a z-axis for selecting what you have highlighted with your cursor.
(right) sight select: Select your primary sight. HMD or FCR for pilot
(center center) cursor select button: quickly moves cursor to next MFD 
(thumb button) FCR scan: activates scan with FCR
(other thumb button?) cued search: does a quick scan towards threatiest of threats. Its your "I have an SA-19 locking me from over there somewhere. Find it" button
(pinky button) missile advance: select next missile

Collective flight grip

 

(top) boresight/polarity: White hot/black hot
(left barber pole): jettison stores
(center Left) TADS/PNVS select: for night flying. Select which you will use
(center right) manual stabilator switch: Manually control the big wing thing on the tailboom

(right, both) both control the search light in some fashion
(trigger) BUCS trigger: your backup control system trigger. Its for really bad days. Read about it if you're curious
(thumb button) chop button: electronically cuts engines.
(pinky button) tail wheel lock/unlock: as the name implies
 

there are quite a few controls that, in a DCS standpoint, you don't necessarily need. So as long as you have a decent hotas it shouldn't be all that bad. 
 

Edited February 9, 2021 by vigilante87

[Raptor9]

16 minutes ago, vigilante87 said:

Cyclic button Functions

(top pinky button): target store. This can be used with your HMD to rapidly save targets you are looking at
 

 

Keep in mind that ED is making a 2002-era AH-64D, in which case this particular function didn't exist at that time.

[vigilante87]

13 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

 

Keep in mind that ED is making a 2002-era AH-64D, in which case this particular function didn't exist at that time.

Good catch, edited

[Bedouin]

7 hours ago, vigilante87 said:

I can help you all out.  I'm sure you'll get a decent guide from casmo at some point.

 

Cyclic button Functions

(top left)Force trim/hold mode switch: this is your trim button. It also has altitude and heading hold
(top middle)Weapon Action Switch(WAS): lets you select your freedom setting. i.e.- gun, missiles, rockets
(top right)Symbology select switch: Cruise, Transition, Hover and bob up modes. 
(top center): counter measures button
(left): Mic switch: both ICS and COMM
(trigger): freedom button
(bottom pinky button): no no switch. Pretty much deactivates your FMC

Collective, mission grip

 

(top) FCR scan size: Think of this as narrowing or widening your scan in normal A/A radars. Same concept 
(top left) FCR mode switch: switch between ground, air, terrain modes

(center) cursor controller: its your fancy thing to control the cursor on the MFDs
(right) sight select: Select your primary sight. HMD or FCR for pilot
(center center) cursor select button: quickly moves cursor to next MFD 
(thumb button) FCR scan: activates scan with FCR
(other thumb button?) cued search: does a quick scan towards threatiest of threats. Its your "I have an SA-19 locking me from over there somewhere. Find it" button
(pinky button) missile advance: select next missile

Collective flight grip

 

(top) boresight/polarity: White hot/black hot
(left barber pole): jettison stores
(center Left) TADS/PNVS select: for night flying. Select which you will use
(center right) manual stabilator switch: Manually control the big wing thing on the tailboom

(right, both) both control the search light in some fashion
(trigger) BUCS trigger: your backup control system trigger. Its for really bad days. Read about it if you're curious
(thumb button) chop button: electronically cuts engines.
(pinky button) tail wheel lock/unlock: as the name implies
 

there are quite a few controls that, in a DCS standpoint, you don't necessarily need. So as long as you have a decent hotas it shouldn't be all that bad. 
 

 

 

Thanks for really well written explanation there helps me better understand the subjects when reading the manual

[kengou]

Thanks so much! So far I can fit everything (cyclic/collective at least) on my HOTAS, if I don't bind the following:

 

(left barber pole): jettison stores

(center right) manual stabilator switch: Manually control the big wing thing on the tailboom

(thumb button) chop button: electronically cuts engines.

(trigger) BUCS trigger: your backup control system trigger. Its for really bad days. Read about it if you're curious

And all searchlight functions (fairly useless in DCS anyway)

 

How important are some of these functions? Most seem like emergency-only functions, and in DCS, an emergency in a Helo pretty much means you're reloading the game anyway. Is the manual stabilator important? Seems like it's automatic most of the time anyway?

[vigilante87]

2 hours ago, kengou said:

Thanks so much! So far I can fit everything (cyclic/collective at least) on my HOTAS, if I don't bind the following:

 

(left barber pole): jettison stores

(center right) manual stabilator switch: Manually control the big wing thing on the tailboom

(thumb button) chop button: electronically cuts engines.

(trigger) BUCS trigger: your backup control system trigger. Its for really bad days. Read about it if you're curious

And all searchlight functions (fairly useless in DCS anyway)

 

How important are some of these functions? Most seem like emergency-only functions, and in DCS, an emergency in a Helo pretty much means you're reloading the game anyway. Is the manual stabilator important? Seems like it's automatic most of the time anyway?

Yup you are correct. All those (besides the searchlight and stabilator) pertain to emergency stuff.

 

With the stabilator yeah, its auto most of the time. Only in certain circumstances would you use it, for instance in rolling take off's. But again, in DCS there are some things you can more or less force aircraft through and it works just fine.

Edited January 22, 2021 by vigilante87

[Raptor9]

2 hours ago, kengou said:

How important are some of these functions? Most seem like emergency-only functions, and in DCS, an emergency in a Helo pretty much means you're reloading the game anyway. Is the manual stabilator important? Seems like it's automatic most of the time anyway?

 

Not very from a gameplay perspective, it really depends on how in-depth of a simulation you want to get.  I will say I've used the jettison stores button in the Ka-50 numbers of times.  For example, there have been times I've lost an engine in the Black Shark and had to jettison my remaining stores to re-gain the power margin to maintain level flight back to the FARP for repairs

 

Regarding the stabilator manual control, it is normally kept in automatic, but the switch is there to either control it manually in case there is an automatic mode failure; or optionally slew it down to push the nose down to increase over-the-nose visibility during low-speed flight or landing approaches.  But even that isn't necessary since you can switch on your Pilot-Night-Vision-System (PNVS) FLIR nose turret to simply look through the floor, even during the day.

 

It should also be noted that several of these buttons on the controls have a "depress" function like the Sensor Control Switch depress in the F/A-18 and Harrier.  For example, to reset the stabilator to automatic mode, you depress the button.  Or the cursor controller can be depressed to "click" on an option under the cursor.  So that unfortunately increases the number of possible key-mappings required.

Edited January 22, 2021 by Raptor9

[NineGzuz]

How does the force trim work?  In the huey and the shark it's just a push button.  But the apache's force trim looks like a up/down rocker or two way HAT to me.

[Raptor9]

2 minutes ago, NineGzuz said:

How does the force trim work?  In the huey and the shark it's just a push button.  But the apache's force trim looks like a up/down rocker or two way HAT to me.

 

It works the same way, you just hold it in the Forward direction instead of pushing it down.

[Rogue Trooper]

For flying any DCS chopper module, I want the Apache collective 1st and the OH-58D collective 2nd...... all the other collectives I have seen on real helicopters just don't offer the versatility that they do.

 

I want. 

Edited January 23, 2021 by Rogue Trooper

[Foxtrot_3103]

On 1/23/2021 at 1:51 AM, Rogue Trooper said:

For flying any DCS chopper module, I want the Apache collective 1st and the OH-58D collective 2nd...... all the other collectives I have seen on real helicopters just don't offer the versatility that they do.

 

I want. 

 

If you have a 3d printer and with a bit of DIY'ing you can find the collective base and controls from here. He She has a Kiowa collective and he's doing an Apache one

Edited January 26, 2021 by Foxtrot_3103
I'm an idiot

[Bedouin]

10 hours ago, Rogue Trooper said:

For flying any DCS chopper module, I want the Apache collective 1st and the OH-58D collective 2nd...... all the other collectives I have seen on real helicopters just don't offer the versatility that they do.

 

I want. 

 

https://komodosimulations.co.uk/ are already accepting pre-orders for Kiowa Cyclic and Collective, so i looks like the Kiowa will be the first with available controls on the market, also makes sense since it properly will be released before the Apache

[Grennymaster]

Wow there Produkts look amazin. But the Prize......

Thinking about building one on my one. Just got my new Resin Printen today

 

[shagrat]

On 1/21/2021 at 1:31 PM, kotor633 said:

Oh shit! How should all this be mapped in DCS ...? Will be interesting!

Don't forget to buy at least two additional Warthog or Virpil CM-50 Sticks to map the Weapons/Sensor-Controls for the frontseater...

 

EDIT ...and new MFDs with more buttons.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2021 by shagrat

[kotor633]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb shagrat:

Don't forget to buy at least two additional Warthog or Virpil CM-50 Sticks to map the Weapons/Sensor-Controls for the frontseater...

 

EDIT ...and new MFDs with more buttons.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No chance! 

[Devil 505]

If any of you have more money than you know what to do with, here is a link to an Apache Cockpit setup.  Not 100% sure they sell to Civilians but badass none the less.  They also have fixed wing.  I have personally flown their F-35 controls in a Prepar3D sim.  The sim was a joke but the flight controls were legit.  I have seen them for sale on Ebay before so this should not be restricted to Government only, but the cost will probably be that of a car.  The link for all aircraft controls is below the Apache Demo video.  And also for anyone who has not seen Polychop's Facebook lately, I provided their link to a company making OH-58 controls.  A lot more reasonable price.  They also have UH-1 controls as well.  All sold to civilians.

 

https://www.bugeyetech.com/ah-64

 

 

https://www.bugeyetech.com/products

 

https://komodosimulations.co.uk/

 

https://komodosimulations.co.uk/collections/cyclic/products/oh-58d

 

https://komodosimulations.co.uk/collections/collective/products/oh-58d-1

[m4ti140]

On 1/21/2021 at 1:31 PM, kotor633 said:

Oh shit! How should all this be mapped in DCS ...? Will be interesting!

On Warthog you could map the china hat as modifier and set it up so if it's in forward position you hold the forward grip, if it's in aft position you hold the aft grip. Then map front and aft grip inputs to respective layers.