The 109 is too good

[PL_Harpoon]

I'd even hazard a guess that even at the end of the war K4's were more common that Griffon powered Spits.

I guess that was offset by allies much greater numerical advantage and the fact that at that time pilot training in Luftwaffe was extremely poor/fast (to keep up with the losses) so that Allied pilots were in general more skilled.

Both things are not a factor in DCS (especially multiplayer)

 

So yeah, a it would be great to have G6's instead (or just have both with limited K4 slots on servers) but for now we allied pilots just have to "git gud" and carry on.

[grafspee]

SoW server often use mission with MW-50 disabled or limited access. So K-4 running max 1.45 ATA and Dora running 1.58/1.65 ATA makes nice match

[Mogster]

4 hours ago, PL_Harpoon said:

I'd even hazard a guess that even at the end of the war K4's were more common that Griffon powered Spits.

I guess that was offset by allies much greater numerical advantage and the fact that at that time pilot training in Luftwaffe was extremely poor/fast (to keep up with the losses) so that Allied pilots were in general more skilled.

Both things are not a factor in DCS (especially multiplayer)

 

So yeah, a it would be great to have G6's instead (or just have both with limited K4 slots on servers) but for now we allied pilots just have to "git gud" and carry on.

Definitely. 
 

Spit XIV deployment was very limited, only around a 100 or so operational at any one time compared to over 1000 Spit IXs available. The Griffon Spits were beasts, many average pilots struggled to adjust to the changes after being very familiar with Merlin variants and would be RTU to their Spit IX squadrons. 
 

The Tempest was a similar hot rod, limited deployment to better pilots in a handful of squadrons while the Typhoon had nearly 20 squadrons on station by 1945.

[grafspee]

Prop in griffon spitfires rotate in opposite direction the merlin's, for take off you would use right rudder

[Mogster]

1 hour ago, grafspee said:

Prop in griffon spitfires rotate in opposite direction the merlin's, for take off you would use right rudder

Yes. I can imagine that’d be quite disconcerting if you’d been flying Merlin Spits for a couple of years…

 

The Mk XIV would be nice to have, if only to see just how different it is to the MkIX we have.

[Nealius]

Wait....you mean left rudder for a Griffon spit takeoff, right? We need right rudder for all our current props. 

 

That said, it's not much more difficult than switching between the UH-1 and Mi-8. Same issue there, but isn't a big deal as long as you remember. 

[Mogster]

2 hours ago, Nealius said:

Wait....you mean left rudder for a Griffon spit takeoff, right? We need right rudder for all our current props. 

 

That said, it's not much more difficult than switching between the UH-1 and Mi-8. Same issue there, but isn't a big deal as long as you remember. 

Yes right for Merlin, left for Griffon.

[rkk01]

All of this ^^ is why I’d love to see some mid war a/c…

 

As much as I’d love to see a Tempest and Sea Fury, it leads us further down the heavier, faster, higher takeoff and landing speeds, more difficult to fly route…

 

A Spit Vb, 109F / early G, earlier Anton (A4?) would be perfect for the Channel map

Edited June 15, 2021 by rkk01

[Marduk879]

Maybe youll correct me here guys but as far as my info goes no griffon spits were deployed as frontline(meaning on continental Europe).

Most of them were reserved as V-1 interceptors on British isles.

 

Possibility of K-4 meeting MkXIV is goddamn low.

[Mogster]

59 minutes ago, Marduk879 said:

Maybe youll correct me here guys but as far as my info goes no griffon spits were deployed as frontline(meaning on continental Europe).

Most of them were reserved as V-1 interceptors on British isles.

 

Possibility of K-4 meeting MkXIV is goddamn low.

I pretty sure Mk XIVs were deployed to the Netherlands. Although like the Tempest they were in relatively low numbers compared to Spit Mk IXs they were used to counter fighter sweeps and nuisance bombing by 262s as well as providing air superiority for TAF CAS missions. Tempests were low cover, Spit XIVs high.

 

The Meteor was never deployed I seem to remember.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Mogster

[Marduk879]

I discovered the unit stationed in Netherlands(No.41 Squadron operating from Twente) aswell and the only info about their task was V-1 interception. Over NL and the channel i guess?

 

No mentions about tasks as cover in CAS missions or other like covering bombers, ground troops or fighter sweeps.

 

The only mentioned thing including enemy fighters is when on "anti-jet patrol" a group stumbled upon 109 and 190s.

Quote

Until the end of the month, by which time 104 V1 had been destroyed by No.91 Squadron, bringing the total to 167.

A total of over 300 flying bombs were destroyed by Spitfire Mk XIV.

 

During October, a new phase of operations for the XIV’s was launched. This was directed against the Messerschmitt Me 262 twin-jet fighter and resulted in ‘anti-jet’ patrols. But the credit for the destruction of the first Me 262 jet fighter by a Supermarine, which happened on October 5, 1944, belonged to a IX of No.401 Squadron.

Two Me 262 were encountered on December 8 to the north of Nijmegen. Again no results were obtained. But another incident occurred the same day, involving No.130 Squadron aircraft. Ten XIV’s were engaged by 12 Me 109 G and Focke-Wulf Fw 190s. Three enemy aircraft were destroyed plus two probables were claimed for the loss of one Supermarine.

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Marduk879

[rkk01]

I thought I’d read somewhere that the Meteor was deployed to Europe - just never ended up with the jet v jet showdown with the 262…?

 

(although the ref I remember suggested the deployed Meteors had an all over white paint scheme to distinguish them from the German jet…)

[Mogster]

12 hours ago, rkk01 said:

I thought I’d read somewhere that the Meteor was deployed to Europe - just never ended up with the jet v jet showdown with the 262…?

 

(although the ref I remember suggested the deployed Meteors had an all over white paint scheme to distinguish them from the German jet…)

Yes that seems to be right. 

[Krez]

On 3/2/2021 at 3:19 AM, Mr_sukebe said:

Hence why the WW2 scenarios that I currently run have MW50 unavailable 

Do you disable WEP on the P-51?
Do you disable water injection in the P-47?

[Mr_sukebe]

2 hours ago, Krez said:

Do you disable WEP on the P-51?
Do you disable water injection in the P-47?

how about I invite you to come along to fly a 109 F (assuming we get one) such that you have an aircraft introduced at a more similar time to the Spit 9 and P47?

[Krez]

5 hours ago, Mr_sukebe said:

how about I invite you to come along to fly a 109 F (assuming we get one) such that you have an aircraft introduced at a more similar time to the Spit 9 and P47?

The P-47D-30 and D-40 we have in game first saw action in mid 1944.
The Spitfire LF Mk. IX we have in game first saw action in early 1943.
The P-51D-25-NA and 30-NA we have in game didn't see action until mid 1944.
The BF-109K-4 we have in game didn't see action until October 1944.

The outlier is the early Spitfire.

At altitude, the P-47 in game is superior to the BF-109 and the P-51 is at least a match.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Krez

[DD_Fenrir]

Which is why a Bf 109G-6/G-14 would be a wise and very welcome addition to DCS.

 

That or a Westwall map....

[grafspee]

K-4 w/o mw50 is much closer in performance to G-6/G-14, it is only solution now available , K-4 exceed Gustav performance at alt above 22k ft where early DB605 had lower crit alt then DB605DB.

Same with Dora, w/o mw50 power is cut down enough.

Edited August 16, 2021 by grafspee

[Krez]

6 hours ago, grafspee said:

K-4 w/o mw50 is much closer in performance to G-6/G-14, it is only solution now available , K-4 exceed Gustav performance at alt above 22k ft where early DB605 had lower crit alt then DB605DB.

Same with Dora, w/o mw50 power is cut down enough.

 

Don't include the Spit in your missions and your problem is solved.

The P-47D-30 and P-47D-40 in DCS in the pinnacle of what saw action in Europe. I don't count the P-47M because it saw limited action in the last month of the war an in a primarily ground attack roll and the P-47N only saw action in the Pacific.
The P-51D-25 and P-51D-30 are the pinnacle of what saw action is Europe. The P-51K is a P-51D with a different propeller.
All entered combat at relatively the same time in 1944.
Less than 4 months later, the BF-109K-4 and the FW-190D-9 started to see action.

From October 1944 until the end of the war, the 4 aircraft above saw action against each other, respectively. The Spitfire LF Mk. IX is an ancient relic by comparison. The solution is to add a Spitfire Mk.XIV.

[Krez]

Looking at the serial numbers for the variants of the 51 and 47 we have in game, I'm willing to bet that they didn't get to Europe until close to December. Which means the 109K-4 saw action before the P-47D-30/40 and P-51D-25/30 event got to their respective squadrons.

[DD_Fenrir]

That's all well and good but, in reality the performance benefits between these later variants and their earlier iterations of them are negligible.

 

The difference between a K-4 and a G-6 is a bit more than negligible.

 

The point has been made time and time and time again, and yes a Westwall map would have made far more sense but RRG went for Normandy for the $$$.

 

The only aircraft that currently 100% fit the Normandy map timeframe are the Spit and the Anton. However, the P-51 and P-47 perform as near as identically to the marks in use at that time to make no difference, so we are obliged to overlook the inconsistencies.

 

We are stuck with it. Do I like it? No.

 

I'd rather have P-51B/Cs, Razorback P-47s, a 109G-6/14 for Normandy and a Winter West Front Map for 1944/1945 to use the K-4 and Dora on. But we will wait a long time for that.

 

Many 109 pilots have proved online that whilst the K-4 w/o MW50 has some disadvantages against it's opponents it also has some excellent strengths and is still very competitive if flown intelligently. This brings it inline with all the other types, which all have strengths and weaknesses which need to be harnessed (or exploited).

 

 

 

 

[Mr_sukebe]

Krez, whilst the P47 and P51 models may well be the pinnacle of their respective lines for the time, our DCS versions don’t have the 150  octane fuel available and the quality of the late war Luftwaffe aircraft was far more variable as a lot of their components were being built by slave labour

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Mr_sukebe

[Krez]

3 hours ago, Mr_sukebe said:

the P47 and P51 models may well be the pinnacle of their respective lines for the time, our DCS versions don’t have the 150  octane fuel available...

 

 

The FM of the 51 and 47 don't take into account the higher octane fuel they actually used? I find that hard to believe.

[Mr_sukebe]

7 minutes ago, Krez said:

The FM of the 51 and 47 don't take into account the higher octane fuel they actually used? I find that hard to believe.

 

Run a search.  Our current allied fighters run on 100 octane, which as you know means reduced power against their potential capabilities.

 

My understanding is that when the warbirds were first being considered, the people voting for the allied planes asked for the most common, e.g. the Spit Mk9.

Unfortunately, the ones voting for the Luftwaffe, requested the best, i.e. the Dora and K4.   You can see it now when people still ask for the T152.

The right thing would have been to create a more even match off, but, we are where we are and simply have to make the best of it.

[grafspee]

I would vote for P-51H every day.