Another F-15 tactics question ...

[Kula66]

Doesn't the HMS give the Migs a BIG advantage in a turning fight? Do you get similar advantage in LO with TIR?

 

From the loadouts of Allied a/c over Yugo (all AMRAAMS, no 'winders) ... I get the idea that you just don't get into a turning fight ... load up with AMRAAMS and once there gone, turn and bugout!!

 

James

[GGTharos]

You'd liek to avoid a dogfight but if you MUST rememebr this:

 

DIVE on them. If you can that is. Point is: ALWAYS enter a dogfight with a Russian bird (MiG or otherwise) with EXCESS energy, for the following reason:

 

You're going to idle your throttles going in. Once the throttle power is reduced, the R-73 becomes very fond of flares, so watch him closely, and if he launches, pop a few flares. In fact, as you close with him pop a few flares pre-emptively and if he launches, the 73's are likely (but not guaranteed) to go for them.

 

This works WONDERFULLY against R-27T/ETs as well.

 

Now, you've merged, full burner, once he starts getting nose on, pull out of burner, flares again. If you didn't shoot him down in the merge, you'll likely have to deal with snapshot #2. If you do have to do so, use the same technique and hope it works. A MiG will typically only be packing two R-73's. Once he gets rid of'em (and assuming yoU STILL haven't shot him down) you can again go full burner and take the fight vertical if he's slower than you, or just force him to follow you high where he can't turn and you can - then nail him.

[169th_DedCat]

I would have thought that if you'd let get to 15miles, then you'd made a mistake!

 

Slammers won't intercept a target beyond that range unless it cooperates, which a number of LOMAC pilots will readily do in the hopes they can spam the attacker before, or even after, they get hit. What a strange war it would be if real pilots were so suicidal... but I guess there is no recover option IRL.

 

Of course the other problem with flying high in your Eagle with your radar on ... you attract bogies like flies on s..t!

 

Flying around with your radar off in a BVR fight is like flying a WWII prop with your eyes closed. If you're getting spiked by enemy airborne threats there is no sense in turning your own radar off. Playing like an ostrich doesn't work--the enemy can still see you with your head in the sand. Stay nose hot and learn how to work your radar to its full abilities. When used properly, the F-15 will always detect the enemy before they detect it.

 

Also, you guys suggest that contrails can be ignored ... the biggest problem in ACM is finding your opponent .... and contrails make that easy!

 

If they can see you on radar, it doesn't matter if you are contrailing or not. Don't fear the vapour.

[Ice]

you could fire at 15miles no problem, then split-s away

 

or fire a "Mad-Dog" at 15miles straight and level, then split-s

 

or start a decent so at 30k 10miles then fire and split S to out run the enemies missile.

 

I Guess the proof is in the pudding.

Here are three tracks i quickly made demonstrating the three cases I talked about.

The first track is Engaging two Ace AI mig29's from 40,000 Feet. firing at one of the bandits then Split-S and engaging the second after extending.

 

The second one is pretty cheeky the same two migs are Mad-Dogged and taken out from 15 miles 40,000 feet. poor bastages never knew what hit them 8)

 

The last one is my preffered way of doing it. decending to 15-20,000 feet TWS. firing once early to seperate the targets (couldnt get the two planes locked at once for some reason, suspect its to do with them being in the same group - bug?) Anyways still aquired both targets fired between 12-10 miles then split-s away. Nice quick teardrop landing to finish off.

 

Once again AI are Excellent, Missile slider is all the way to the right,

No Externals or Padloclk used. Just good old Ace Settings

 

Click Here to Download

[S77th-GOYA]

Don't try to hide in a 15. Make yourself known and attract everybody you can. This assumes you know how to scan your radar effectively. As long as you know where they are, you shouldn't be timid at all. You're a mean, grey, killing machine. Dare 'em to come to you. Just go into their kill envelope long enough to get your shot off and get out.

[3Sqn_Sven]

What Goya said

[169th_Jaws]

Don't try to hide in a 15. Make yourself known and attract everybody you can. This assumes you know how to scan your radar effectively. As long as you know where they are, you shouldn't be timid at all. You're a mean, grey, killing machine. Dare 'em to come to you. Just go into their kill envelope long enough to get your shot off and get out.

 

Yep, what he says. Fly the F-15 to it's strengths, not it's weaknesses. I like to keep the fight at arms length at all times. It's strengths are it's superiour radar (TWS) and the ability to launch multiple AMRAAMs on multiple bandits without giving off a lock warning. Even if you're engaged by 4 or more, if they're close together you've got an even fight because you put them all defensive at the same time.

 

It's weaknesses are CAC. It can be easily out-turned by a MiG or light Su and it's Aim-9 is a so so missile compared to the high aspect, helmet mounted 73's of the Russian birds. The only thing going for it in CAC is it's auto-acquisition modes but the Ruski birds will have that in 1.1 so it'll level that right out.

 

If you're packing AMRAAMs, know the features of your radar well, are aggresive with your scanning and know when to bug out, you're the king of BVR in the Eagle. End of story.

[Kula66]

Thanks for the comments/suggestions/tracks. Just for the record ... I do fly high and with radar on, as you all suggest, there is no point not using the Eagles major strength, i.e. its radar!

 

And mostly it works, just sometimes a 29 gets under me, you end up kind of surrounded or I end up at 200kts wallowing around tryng to turn and run!! As I asked initially, is the Eagle really that sluggish at 40k, nose down and AB on full?

 

Agree about the HMS .... but why do you say it is easily out-turn? I thought that on paper the 15 is better than the 29? It usually comes down the the pilot and weight!

 

I guess launching at 15miles gives your shot better energy in the end game - its all a question of timing!

 

Thanks,

James

[S77th-GOYA]

As I asked initially, is the Eagle really that sluggish at 40k, nose down and AB on full?

 

James, all planes are unless you're flying fast. The ABs don't produce that much thrust at that altitude. Momentum is the key.

[169th_Jaws]

why do you say it is easily out-turn? I thought that on paper the 15 is better than the 29? It usually comes down the the pilot and weight!

 

No way mate. The Mig will kill the 15 in a horizontal fight if flown correctly. And I mean KILL. No question. If you're forced to fly the Eagle in a knife fight you should keep it vertical and utilise the Eagle's superiour thrust. Boom and zoom.

[Ice]

why do you say it is easily out-turn? I thought that on paper the 15 is better than the 29? It usually comes down the the pilot and weight!

 

No way mate. The Mig will kill the 15 in a horizontal fight if flown correctly. And I mean KILL. No question. If you're forced to fly the Eagle in a knife fight you should keep it vertical and utilise the Eagle's superiour thrust. Boom and zoom.

 

hmm I donno Jaws I'm yet to see a Mig29 keep up in a flat turn with a f15

su27 with a handful of pilots maybe.

[169th_Jaws]

Ice you MUST be kidding! You can run rings around a 15 in a MiG! Sustained turn rate may eventually fall to the 15 but the MiG will be on your 6 and firing in under 20 seconds so it doesn't really matter. Now you know I'm a F-15 pilot normally, but I distincntly remember a training gunzo engagement with 169th_TomAce where I was in the 29, he was in a 15. I was able to fly WITHIN the MiG's capabilities and I still got on the Eagles tail with no hassle. That's no discredit to TomAce, nor am I saying it had anything to do with me. It was just simply to easy to come around on his 6! You of all people would know from experience as you're often in the 29. It's an angles fighter compared to the 15, there's no question!

 

The 27 is a little different and requires a VERY skilled pilot to out turn a 15. But as we've all seen if the Su is below 50% fuel it should win the horizontal fight if flown patiently.

[Cherokee]

Ok, the dispute has been raised. TRACKS..... I SAY TRACKS to prove your point. Just like Ice did with the earlier tracks. One thing is for sure...I need more experience. I couldn't even follow what was going on in those 3 tracks. That Damn RWR was killing me when those missiles started getting launched. Ice, how many did it launch. Is it one missile for every launch tone or what? All right... Let's get ready to rumble!

[GGTharos]

Ice you MUST be kidding! You can run rings around a 15 in a MiG! Sustained turn rate may eventually fall to the 15 but the MiG will be on your 6 and firing in under 20 seconds so it doesn't really matter. Now you know I'm a F-15 pilot normally, but I distincntly remember a training gunzo engagement with 169th_TomAce where I was in the 29, he was in a 15. I was able to fly WITHIN the MiG's capabilities and I still got on the Eagles tail with no hassle. That's no discredit to TomAce, nor am I saying it had anything to do with me. It was just simply to easy to come around on his 6! You of all people would know from experience as you're often in the 29. It's an angles fighter compared to the 15, there's no question!

 

The 27 is a little different and requires a VERY skilled pilot to out turn a 15. But as we've all seen if the Su is below 50% fuel it should win the horizontal fight if flown patiently.

 

Nope, it's the other way around. The 27 will -easily- out-turn the F-15 in almost any situation. The MiG has a big advantage when slow (as does the Sue) esp. at low altitudes, but take him high and he won't be turning for squat. Hisinstantaneous isn't going to be very good up there either. Just keep your speed up and you'll win, AFAIK.

[Kula66]

I thought all the a/c were similar (within a couple of deg/sec) and that things like fuel load/pilot ability were more significant (especially for the 27 with its huge potential fuel fraction). The 15 is slower turning below 350mph and then gets slightly better than the 29/27 ... although most ACM gets slower than this quickly ...

 

I've been searching for some EM diagrams I remember seeing, but can't remember where!!! Whether the game matches published EM diagrams is another matter, probably changes from version to version! I don't suppose ED could publish some 15 v 29 and 15 v 27 diags ... please?

 

However, given HMS and off-bore shots I think turn rates are a moot point!

 

Regards,

James

[Ice]

No one flies the Mig29 in guns fights. wonder why ?

 

Su27 is good in a 1 v 1 but doesnt like changing course too much. especially at low speeds.

Thats why in furballs the high scores are allways in f15's

 

As for tracks, well this is not an issue that can be demonstrated wth AI. We are talking about human pilots.

 

The best guns fighters fly F15's or Su27's NOT Mig29's and the difference between the 2 comes down to who is the better pilot on the day.

[Ice]

Ice you MUST be kidding! You can run rings around a 15 in a MiG! Sustained turn rate may eventually fall to the 15 but the MiG will be on your 6 and firing in under 20 seconds so it doesn't really matter. Now you know I'm a F-15 pilot normally, but I distincntly remember a training gunzo engagement with 169th_TomAce where I was in the 29, he was in a 15. I was able to fly WITHIN the MiG's capabilities and I still got on the Eagles tail with no hassle. That's no discredit to TomAce, nor am I saying it had anything to do with me. It was just simply to easy to come around on his 6! You of all people would know from experience as you're often in the 29. It's an angles fighter compared to the 15, there's no question!

 

The 27 is a little different and requires a VERY skilled pilot to out turn a 15. But as we've all seen if the Su is below 50% fuel it should win the horizontal fight if flown patiently.

 

Both Jaws and TomAce have a long way to go before reaching their best in a guns fight

[Ice]

here's my first hand experience in flat turns.

 

Mig29: I dont bother and no one has ever given me a challenging fight with guns in it.

 

su27: I can almost keep up with a F15 turning at sea level at around 610kph 45% fuel or less. I have seen it turn faster at really slow speeds like 200kph. however if someone tries this on me, I just go vertical which the SU can't do once that slow. some pilots turn the SU better than I can.

 

F15: (my favourite) Turns best at 350knots less than 50% fuel. Done well this is the best tactic. Very very few pilots can keep up with the F15 in a flat turn flying a Su27. That said there are some that can and my hat goes off to them. I still fly the SU27 quite regularly because I'd like to be able to do that too (Jetfire might give me some lessons one day)

[GGTharos]

Right on the nose, although AFAIK the 27 matches the 15 in sustained turn rate anywhere (but the 15 has a -slight- advantage at certain speeds which can give you 20-30 deg angles per 360 turn!) and at the same time the Sue pilot can easily out-turn the 15 in instantaneous.

 

The danger here is 15 pilots who stay in the plane after the Sue sharply pulls lead for a snapshot. Baboom, you've been had. Pulling lead like that means bleeding energy, which means the 15 should pull up and tranfer to BnZ if possible.

In any case, your airspeed should -always- stay above 300kts ... when it's going lower and he's not in your sight,s you're doing something wrong. If he's on your tail and you've got anything less then 400kts airspeed AND he's not right there shooting, do not even ATTEMPT to make him oveshoot. You'll just hang there like a baloon and baboom.

 

Missile fights of course are an entirely different matter...

[Guest Cali]

Ice you MUST be kidding! You can run rings around a 15 in a MiG! Sustained turn rate may eventually fall to the 15 but the MiG will be on your 6 and firing in under 20 seconds so it doesn't really matter. Now you know I'm a F-15 pilot normally, but I distincntly remember a training gunzo engagement with 169th_TomAce where I was in the 29, he was in a 15. I was able to fly WITHIN the MiG's capabilities and I still got on the Eagles tail with no hassle. That's no discredit to TomAce, nor am I saying it had anything to do with me. It was just simply to easy to come around on his 6! You of all people would know from experience as you're often in the 29. It's an angles fighter compared to the 15, there's no question!

 

The 27 is a little different and requires a VERY skilled pilot to out turn a 15. But as we've all seen if the Su is below 50% fuel it should win the horizontal fight if flown patiently.

 

I was in a sustained turn fight with a 29 and he didn't even get close to getting on my 6. I think he crashed after about 3 minutes of turning. We were both able to get a few shots off but none of them connected.

[169th_Jaws]

Hey, altitude was NEVER mentioned. At altitude it may be a different story but lower down the MiG is superior. Like I said GGTharos, fly the F-15 to it's strengths and go vertical. Boom and zoom. If you keep it low, slow and flat then the Fulcrum is in it's element. What was the MiG-29 designed for? Short range intercept and CAC. The 15? A medium range interceptor and air superiority. The MiG is a small fighter and far more skittish, light and agile than the 15. FAR MORE and I still stand by it. It's flight performance is a work of art, much like the Su-27. And GGTharos, if you take anyone on in a fully fueled Su-27 in a knife fight you can kiss your arse goodbye. It'll be as heavy as a ship. Period. Drop the fuel to 50% and it's LETHAL. The 27, afterall, is a 'super fighter'.

 

Ice, I remember only about a month and a half ago getting onto your 6 in a MiG-29, you were in the 15. It wasn't that hard either as we both started at low speed, low alt (the MiG's strength). Once again I'm not saying it was me, it was the jet that did the work. If it's horizontal and slow, then the MiG has it on the 15. If this is incorrect in LOMAC, then I would feel that the moddeling of the MIG's flight characteristics have been under moddled.

[Guest ruggbutt]

Maybe it's just me but the 15 is savage in a turning fight. IMHO the '27's and '33's have no chance gunzo. The '29 is a different story but it's hampered severely by fuel constraints, you can run them out of fuel fairly quick if you're driving a '15. Especially if you force them to use burners.

[169th_Jaws]

Hey, the F-15 is my favourite jet in LOMAC for a reason! :) It's a fantastic a/c. There are so many variables when comparing flight performance: wing loading, fuel loading, speed, alt, pilot etc. so it makes it difficult to say which single a/c is the best in a horizontal turn. Ice flies the MiG more often than me, there's no doubt. But when I first started flying the MiG I could literally feel a difference in the turn. I felt I could push the AoA higher and it's instantaneous turn rate was exceptional. I was able to get behind the F-15 so quickly but hey... who knows. It's just from my experience, it's just that it was fairly recent and I saw it with my own eyes. Maybe I need an Eagle gunzo ace to prove me wrong! Gunzo ain't my strength!