Better Understanding RWR wanted

[ilikepie]

had a mission where  there there was 2 f16 NOE ingress to a target with an SA10 site protecting it, RWR in the viper picks up the radar system, the lock and the missile launch warning. both vipers go defensive and into a notch and managed break lock.....however...trackview file shows that the SA10 system was tracking and launching on entirely separate target/s in the opposite direction....I'm trying to understand if the RWR differentiates between a launch on ownship (for lack of a better term) or just locks and launches in general.  

 

insights appreciated 

 

[Bunny Clark]

There is directionality to it. It's entirely likely that two aircraft close together will get a launch warning when only one has been fired on. It shouldn't happen for targets with significant azimuth separation though. 

[Wdigman]

When Flying the A10 I get Missile launch warnings all the time when friendlies fire mavericks or even when enemy artillery fire Rockets.

 

Usually fire off Countermeasures just in case unless its visually obvious whats shooting and where.

 

Can be unnerving when trying to clear SAM sites and too much is going on.

 

Situational awareness is key. Knowing whats in the air and on the ground and the capabilities is what will keep you alive. That's what makes Instant Action missions so hard.

[ilikepie]

4 hours ago, Bunny Clark said:

 It shouldn't happen for targets with significant azimuth separation though. 

which is what i thought, this is the confusing part. 

 

 

[kengou]

As others have said, the RWR can detect the change in frequency when an enemy radar goes into STT mode, even if it's not directly at your own jet, as long as you're within the radar cone. Real life SOP, as I understand it, is when such a signal is detected everyone in the flight tries to get eyes on the missile quickly so they can determine who it's tracking on. Read lots of accounts of this in various memoirs. Without eyes on missile, everyone should assume they're the ones being locked and go defensive immediately.

[Bunny Clark]

9 hours ago, Wdigman said:

When Flying the A10 I get Missile launch warnings all the time when friendlies fire mavericks or even when enemy artillery fire Rockets.

Yup, but that's not the RWR though. The A-10C has a Missile Approach Warning System (MAWS), which consists of several IR cameras around the aircraft to detect the heat from a missile launch.  MAWS will detect almost any kind of missile launch in proximity to the aircraft, the RWR will not detect things like Mavericks as they're not radar guided. 

 

This is one reason why it's good practice to call out missile shots in multiplayer. If I get a MAWS warning at the exact moment my wingman calls "rifle" in my ear I know I can safely ignore it. 

[probad]

the rwr tells you which direction to look out the window

the smoke tells you where the missile is headed

problem solved

Edited February 22, 2021 by probad

[ilikepie]

14 hours ago, kengou said:

 Real life SOP, as I understand it, is when such a signal is detected everyone in the flight tries to get eyes on the missile quickly so they can determine who it's tracking on. Read lots of accounts of this in various memoirs. Without eyes on missile, everyone should assume they're the ones being locked and go defensive immediately.

 

I can understand that this is relevant to a flight approaching from the same azimuth or general direction> This particular instance the noe flight was on the SA battery's 3 o'clock and the launch was on a flight from the 6 oclock aspect with over 40 miles of separation.

 

The manual seems to  confuse rather than clarify (EA i know)

 

: If a symbol has a flashing circle around it, it indicates that the radar is supporting a missile that has been launched at you. When being launched on by a radar-guided missile, you will hear a missile launch tone and the LAUNCH light to the left will illuminate.

 

hence the question, is the RWR only picking up the general energy state change (radar wavelength iguess) or is it A/C specific. 

 

 

[kengou]

9 hours ago, ilikepie said:

 

I can understand that this is relevant to a flight approaching from the same azimuth or general direction> This particular instance the noe flight was on the SA battery's 3 o'clock and the launch was on a flight from the 6 oclock aspect with over 40 miles of separation.

 

The manual seems to  confuse rather than clarify (EA i know)

 

: If a symbol has a flashing circle around it, it indicates that the radar is supporting a missile that has been launched at you. When being launched on by a radar-guided missile, you will hear a missile launch tone and the LAUNCH light to the left will illuminate.

 

hence the question, is the RWR only picking up the general energy state change (radar wavelength iguess) or is it A/C specific. 

 

 

 

This is worth testing but I've definitely seen the RWR in multiple aircraft light up when my wingman was STT locked many times over the years. I don't know the azimuth limits to how this is modeled in DCS, but it sounds like you were within 90 degrees of the other flight which may have been within the cone of the tracking radar.

[Florence201]

Irl SA10 is a nasty beast due to the AESA flaplid radar. It can engage and track multiple targets simultaneously. Not sure how ED have modeled though. 

[TobiasA]

The most weird thing is that you get a launch warning in an track-via-missile system which doesn't change its signature at all during tracking

[Bunny Clark]

On 2/22/2021 at 8:38 PM, ilikepie said:

hence the question, is the RWR only picking up the general energy state change (radar wavelength iguess) or is it A/C specific. 

It is picking up the change in energy state of the radar, but that energy is directional when it is illuminating a target for fire control. It's realistic, as far as we know, for your RWR to alert you when another aircraft within a few degrees of you relative to the launcher is illuminated. But it should not happen when you're 180° from the target, that sounds like a bug. Your RWR should not pick up any change in state for a radar pointing away from you, it shouldn't pick up the radar at all.  

 

On 2/23/2021 at 12:11 PM, TobiasA said:

The most weird thing is that you get a launch warning in an track-via-missile system which doesn't change its signature at all during tracking

TVM definitely changes it's signature on a missile launch, it's just a variation on SARH. From the target's point of view it's identical to SARH. 

[Machalot]

Could be picking up radiation from the side lobes.

Sidelobes_en.svg

 

[TobiasA]

vor 19 Stunden schrieb Bunny Clark:

TVM definitely changes it's signature on a missile launch, it's just a variation on SARH. From the target's point of view it's identical to SARH. 

 

As far as I know, it doesn't because it just locks you, but doesn't paint you at all. Wikipedia says the same https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track-via-missile
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Grumble-Gargoyle.html

It is probably classified tho for a reason.

Edited February 25, 2021 by TobiasA
Added classified note.

[Bunny Clark]

1 hour ago, TobiasA said:

 

As far as I know, it doesn't because it just locks you, but doesn't paint you at all. Wikipedia says the same https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track-via-missile

... That's not what Wikipedia says at all:

 

Quote

As with semi-active homing missiles, the ground-based radar illuminates the target with radar energy which is then reflected off the target and detected by the missile.

That is exactly how SARH works. TVM is the same basic principle as SARH except that seeker data is sent back to the launch site for guidance analysis, and steering commands are then transmitted to the missile. It allows more computationally complex guidance algorithms to be used more effectively, as the guidance software does not need to run on the space constrained missile hardware nor on battery power. Radar target illumination (either CWI or PDI) is the exact shift in radar energy that an RWR detects to alert the aircraft to SARH missile guidance. From the perspective of the RWR in the target aircraft, TVM does not necessarily look any different than SARH. In application, the primary difference is that most TVM systems use modern phased array tracking radars that are more difficult to detect. 

 

With regards to the SA-10 in game though, the point is moot. DCS models the 5V55 family of missiles, the oldest deployed with the SA-10 system, which do not use TVM.

 

 

[ruddy122]

The S-300 is Phd level EW

What makes it dangerous unclassed wise is it’s missiles and the multitude of radars

Let say a missile system like the Fan Song FCR radar is only one transmitter one receiver

The S-300 can use Big Bird, Clamshell to kill you

The S-300 can use more radars to kill you but the actual radars is classified and I’m not telling

These radars I talked about are in DCS

The S-400 and S-500 can use more radars and their missiles are improved


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[TobiasA]

vor 19 Stunden schrieb Bunny Clark:

With regards to the SA-10 in game though, the point is moot. DCS models the 5V55 family of missiles, the oldest deployed with the SA-10 system, which do not use TVM

That explains a lot. 

[macedk]

Search for ralfiedude on youtube...he made an exelent video on the rwr. 

[Florence201]

On 2/25/2021 at 12:38 PM, ruddy122 said:

The S-300 is Phd level EW

What makes it dangerous unclassed wise is it’s missiles and the multitude of radars

Let say a missile system like the Fan Song FCR radar is only one transmitter one receiver

The S-300 can use Big Bird, Clamshell to kill you

The S-300 can use more radars to kill you but the actual radars is classified and I’m not telling

These radars I talked about are in DCS

The S-400 and S-500 can use more radars and their missiles are improved


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Not 100% accurate. Big Bird is an EW radar for area search.

Clam Shell is the TA radar that looks for low level targets.

FlapLid is the fire control portions of the S300. This is the engagement radar

[ruddy122]

Your right Big Bird is EW but it doesn’t mean it’s not a threat the S-300 and it’s variants can use it if it had to

But the main FCR is Flap Lid and its variants

Probably not fully modeled in DCS but that’s one of the things in real life you got to watch out for

Also you don’t see it

It comes at you differently if you don’t see it launch at you


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There’s a name for it but it escapes me

Not Direct but Proportional


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[ruddy122]

The S-300 family is Russia’s patriot sam

The S-500 is their latest and can detect stealth, cruise missile and engage low space targets


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[ruddy122]

TVM Track Via Missile is nasty

The Patriot and Modern SAMS use TVM


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[Ignition]

I have problems with the offset in the F-16, its useless. It still heavily overlaps each other and its impossible to understand each radar.

[Florence201]

57 minutes ago, Ignition said:

I have problems with the offset in the F-16, its useless. It still heavily overlaps each other and its impossible to understand each radar.

 

Use the Separate function to see what is on the RWR.

23 hours ago, ruddy122 said:

Your right Big Bird is EW but it doesn’t mean it’s not a threat the S-300 and it’s variants can use it if it had to

But the main FCR is Flap Lid and its variants


 

 

The Big Bird isn't used for Fire Control irl or in DCS.

[VampireNZ]

If the SAM is tracking a target in the opposite direction, your RWR is detecting the return energy off the other targeted aircraft, the same energy the SAM is detecting.