Jump to content

Realistic ASP -- General Questions


Recommended Posts

I'm trying to understand how the realistic ASP works but the tutorials are set around the non-realistic ASP; the manual doesn't help much, and the forums witness that ASP has been re-worked a few times. So here's my anthology of questions:

  • Is the realistic ASP working as intended at the moment? Are there any bugs?
  • Is the pipper indeed expected to be fixed on a specific position (rather than following the target) when employing AA missiles? Is it normal that the pipper either completely disappears or expands in size when locking a target?
  • How does it work for gun (ground) and rockets (with radar)? Does the pipper represent where the the gun and rockets are going to hit (it doesn't seem to work)?
  • Is there any point in setting target size (as shown in tutorials)? You get the range from radar in AA engagement. What's the point of setting target size? Even more for ground targets...
  • Bombing procedure doesn't require the radar to be on. Neither an accurate QFE is necessary. How is it even possible to get the scale needle working without any input?
  • Is it actually possible (IRL) for the radar to lock ground targets? What is the point of locking the ground (except for the Grom which I understand it couldn't even be employed by the Mig-21 version we have in DCS)?
  • What does the Automatic/Manual switch do? Is there any point of using manual? And...
  • is there any point touching the intercept angle knob?

 

I don't like asking all these questions; they sound like "teach me because I'm too bored to read". But the approach taken in this module being centred around the non-realistic option for the ASP has me confused.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, john4pap said:
  • Is the realistic ASP working as intended at the moment? Are there any bugs?

There are quite some, some of them related to your other questions. Most importantly the range indicators below the sight are not selected as they should.

 

9 hours ago, john4pap said:

Is the pipper indeed expected to be fixed on a specific position (rather than following the target) when employing AA missiles? Is it normal that the pipper either completely disappears or expands in size when locking a target?

Yes it will stay as is for AA missiles. There is actually not a lot of information gathered from the ASP when using missiles. Second question may also be bug related, as the automatic scaling acts weirdly. I cannot find a good reference for real operation regarding that though.

9 hours ago, john4pap said:
  • How does it work for gun (ground) and rockets (with radar)? Does the pipper represent where the the gun and rockets are going to hit (it doesn't seem to work)

The gun should be left in A2A mode for ground usage. Unguided rockets are probably the best represented mode this module currently has. The sight will use either slant range calculated by altitude and set QFE, or radar when active and in fixed beam mode. The pipper will indeed give you impact location.

10 hours ago, john4pap said:
  • Is there any point in setting target size (as shown in tutorials)? You get the range from radar in AA engagement. What's the point of setting target size? Even more for ground targets...

Not really a point at all, if it actually works, which I doubt. However I would depending on the engaged enemy also not rely on the radar. With a non-manouvering target you can use the ASP just like the sights you know from the MiG-15 for example. That is gyro mode, wing-span set to the target, manual range per smallest scale on the range indicators and no radar lock. I have never succesfully used the pipper on a manouvering target and my assumption is, that pipper size calculation is bugged for small targets. Also keep in mind the maximum deflection of 6.5° in all directions makes the ASP quite useless in a turn fight anyway.

10 hours ago, john4pap said:
  • Bombing procedure doesn't require the radar to be on. Neither an accurate QFE is necessary. How is it even possible to get the scale needle working without any input?

Unlike the simulation, there is absolutely no automatic mode for bombing in the MiG-21bis. It is purely manual per bombing tables. You would set the depression (intercept angle) manually to a value from a table and get release altitude, speed, angle, etc. from the table too. This is both for level and dive bombing.

10 hours ago, john4pap said:
  • Is it actually possible (IRL) for the radar to lock ground targets? What is the point of locking the ground (except for the Grom which I understand it couldn't even be employed by the Mig-21 version we have in DCS)?

This whole part is pure fiction.

10 hours ago, john4pap said:
  • What does the Automatic/Manual switch do? Is there any point of using manual? And...
  • is there any point touching the intercept angle knob?

See above.

 

Hope that all helps.

  • Like 5

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, finger said:

ASP-21 PFD logic is still out of reality,so it is pointless to discuss about it.

 

I think there is a point to discuss about it that how it works in real one, and then why the DCS one is wrong/correct.

 

 

i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S.

i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm,OK-a manual for ASP-21PFD has 230 pages and I provided it to guys of M3LLC,so maybe someday.........Big discussion about ASP was here 4-5 years ago,but if you need to know something specific ,I am at your disposal.

  • Like 3

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Jonne , thank you very much for your detailed answer! I have a much clearer picture now.

 

7 hours ago, Jonne said:

Most importantly the range indicators below the sight are not selected as they should.

Could you elaborate on this point? Out of pure interest...

 

7 hours ago, Jonne said:

Not really a point at all, if it actually works, which I doubt. However I would depending on the engaged enemy also not rely on the radar. With a non-manouvering target you can use the ASP just like the sights you know from the MiG-15 for example. That is gyro mode, wing-span set to the target, manual range per smallest scale on the range indicators and no radar lock. I have never succesfully used the pipper on a manouvering target and my assumption is, that pipper size calculation is bugged for small targets. Also keep in mind the maximum deflection of 6.5° in all directions makes the ASP quite useless in a turn fight anyway.

I do not own MIG-15 but always assumed that it is similar to WW2 planes. You set the windspan of the target and when it fits into the pipper you have the correct range to fire. But the Mig-21 has two scales and that means that target size is also pertinent to other weapons aside the gun. But in what other scenario other than using the gun would target size be of any relevance?

 

Just to make sure I got that correctly, regarding intercept angle & Manual switch, the only practical uses would be for gun and rockets without radar, and in real life for bombs. Correct?

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you! I am so going to test these all out, but I guess most of them will not work. Could you also explain the columns where the distance is given as a range or fixed value, like D=600-650m for guns in a2a gyro mode? Does that mean the range (pipper) is set to that range, or shall you dial it manually?

1 hour ago, john4pap said:

Could you elaborate on this point? Out of pure interest...

 

The four range scales are not used correctly for the given mode. Most of the times its the largest upper scale. I don't know the exact allocations anymore.

 

1 hour ago, john4pap said:

Just to make sure I got that correctly, regarding intercept angle & Manual switch, the only practical uses would be for gun and rockets without radar, and in real life for bombs. Correct?

 

 

No, for guns and rockets without radar, you would still have slant range calculated automatically. This is less accurate and depends on the correct QFE set.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just want to chime in to say thanks to @Jonne and @finger for the very interesting and condensed information shown in this thread!

It makes me really sad to see (once again) how far from reality the ASP simulation in DCS is :sad:


Edited by QuiGon

Intel i7-4790K @ 4x4GHz + 16 GB DDR3 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit

 

DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!

 

Tornado3 small.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, finger said:

Real work modes of ASP-21PFD

DSCN1626.JPG

That is clear specification that what should be usable.

 

It is really interesting how it is really just manual for bombing, but it must be that gunsight is so small, so bad low visibility, radar gimbal limited to forward etc. This so that one can't just have automatic solution in the system. And likely easier considering how many bombs you can have that anyways are trained to be used like in dive.

i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S.

i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The gun sight dimension cannot be the reason for the lack of a CCIP mode. You would still use the pipper even for level bombing, but fixed to a preset angle. Why there is no automatic mode for bombing is a bit beyond me, as the technical difference to the existing unguided rocket mode should not be significant. Actually it would be interesting to know the details of the difference between the unguided rocket and bomb A2G modes.

  • Like 1

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to post
Share on other sites

I got quite good at using the sight to drop bombs accurately tonight,  I don't mind that it might not have had that function IRL,  it adds a string to its bow,  it still makes a pretty bad bomber anyway!

Mods I use: KA-50 JTAC - Better Fire and Smoke - Unchain Rudder from trim KA50 - Sim FFB for G940 - Beczl Rocket Pods Updated!

Processor: Intel Q6600 @ 3.00GHz

GPU: GeForce MSI RTX 2060 6GB

RAM: Crucial 8GB DDR2

HDD: 1TBGB Crucial SSD

OS: Windows 10, 64-bit

Peripherals: Logitech G940 Hotas, TrackiR 5, Voice Activated commands , Sharkoon 5.1 headset. ,Touch Control for iPad, JoyToKey

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

I wonder if M3 has any plans to address the above, I was wondering about the sight and the above isn't great to hear.

  • Like 1

Modules I own: F-14A/B, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, F-16CM, AJS-37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), UH-1H, Mi-8MTV2, P-47D, P-51D, FC3, MiG-15bis, Yak-52, CA, C-101, Hawk

Terrains I own: Syria, The Channel, SoH

 

System (RIP my old PC): Dell XPS 15 9570 w/ Intel i7-8750H, NVIDIA GTX 1050Ti Max-Q, 16GB DDR4, 500GB Samsung PM871 SSD (upgraded with 1TB Samsung 970 EVO Plus SSD)

 

VKB Gunfighter Mk.II w. MCG Pro

 

Dreams: https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/list/mBG4dD

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/20/2021 at 2:12 AM, jib said:

I got quite good at using the sight to drop bombs accurately tonight,  I don't mind that it might not have had that function IRL,  it adds a string to its bow,  it still makes a pretty bad bomber anyway!

Considering the DCS difference to reality, the DCS doesn't simulate bombs properly.

The fragmentations and damage effects are still way too small.

 

Dropping a 100 kg bomb is still more than a single HE artillery shell, and those are devastating for large areas. 

250 kg and 500 kg becomes just massive by their destruction powers. But nothing like a artillery battery 60 second firing at full speed to example 500x100 meters area.

 

Where in DCS we are required to get direct hits or almost direct hits (5 m or so), in reality we talk about 50 meters for on target and 100 meters for acceptable effects and 150 m for a miss.

 

So in DCS we need to be almost 10-15 times more accurate with a 250 kg bomb than in reality.

 

Sure we can argue that as in reality ground ain't flat but has own roughness, that DCS would model it, but it just doesn't really fly.

We don't even have the fragmentation direction by the shell/bomb angle when exploding. Or have a delayed fuze or proximity fuze for airburst.

 

This all makes these old fighters bombs far more challenging to destroy targets, not to forget to damage them to lower their combat effectiveness.

i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S.

i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/5/2021 at 7:14 PM, Northstar98 said:

I wonder if M3 has any plans to address the above, I was wondering about the sight and the above isn't great to hear.

 

I'm also desperate for an official answer on this as it really bothers me... :sad:


Edited by QuiGon
  • Like 2

Intel i7-4790K @ 4x4GHz + 16 GB DDR3 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit

 

DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!

 

Tornado3 small.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

I'm also desperate for an official answer on this as it really bothers me... :sad:

 

Agreed. :sad:

Modules I own: F-14A/B, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, F-16CM, AJS-37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), UH-1H, Mi-8MTV2, P-47D, P-51D, FC3, MiG-15bis, Yak-52, CA, C-101, Hawk

Terrains I own: Syria, The Channel, SoH

 

System (RIP my old PC): Dell XPS 15 9570 w/ Intel i7-8750H, NVIDIA GTX 1050Ti Max-Q, 16GB DDR4, 500GB Samsung PM871 SSD (upgraded with 1TB Samsung 970 EVO Plus SSD)

 

VKB Gunfighter Mk.II w. MCG Pro

 

Dreams: https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/list/mBG4dD

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...