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F-16 vs Mig-15


RodBorza
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Hello all,

 

So I decided to try out the F-16 in the last free to play given by ED. It is an amazing dogfighter, and for the record, Dogfight and Missile modes make things way easier.

I'm not the world's greatest dogfigther (maybe one day i'll get to the Growling Sidewinder's level) and I know that the AI use the Simple Flight Model, so I could try my luck dogfighting against Mig-29s and Su-27s with relative success.

However, I'm having a hard time in guns only dogfight against Mig-15s. Oh boy, those things are pesky. 

So, my question is: besides my questionable dogfighting skills, are there any reasons why the Mig-15s are so hard to shoot down? I mean, their lower speed may give them some better turn radius and turn rate, and/or their wings are better suited for this kind of fight? Are there any tips or tricks while dogfigting in the F-16 that can be useful?

 

Thanks in advance.

This is an amazing sim! 'Nuff said!:pilotfly:

 

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If you're fighting the AI, it's their AI flight model - and it can be quite ridiculous - especially apparent when the same aircraft in the same configuration fight each other - I think the MiG-15bis, MiG-21bis and F-5E-3 are particularly notorious.

 


Edited by Northstar98
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12 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

If you're fighting the AI, it's their AI flight model - and it can be quite ridiculous and I think the MiG-15bis, MiG-21bis and F-5E-3 being particularly notorious.

 

Yep, it is the Ai, particularly on that The Gauntlet mission.

This is an amazing sim! 'Nuff said!:pilotfly:

 

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Mig 15 and Mig 21 AI have questionable flight performance, if i remember correctly the 21 uses its old fm before they updated it. so players use the new while ai use the old. 

for the mig 15 they fight in very specific ways i have noticed and depending on difficulty will decide how they fight, e.g in a sabre they will try go vertical, if they do that against a mig 15 or consiquently other aircraft with high thrust to weight then they become easier targets. 

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AI will always do a looping if it knows that it is faster than you or infront of you. 

 

If it is behind you, it will follow you, but has serious issues with certain maneuvers, so they will go vertical again. 

 

Basically, AI can only do two/three maneuvers. 

 

Follow you

Do looping

And from time to time also crash into the ground


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On 2/15/2021 at 12:36 PM, zcrazyx said:

Mig 15 and Mig 21 AI have questionable flight performance, if i remember correctly the 21 uses its old fm before they updated it. so players use the new while ai use the old. 

for the mig 15 they fight in very specific ways i have noticed and depending on difficulty will decide how they fight, e.g in a sabre they will try go vertical, if they do that against a mig 15 or consiquently other aircraft with high thrust to weight then they become easier targets. 

 

Oh yes, they do use the old FM. For what I heard, any AI aircraft that you go against, uses the old FM, while you are with the new FM, with its advantages and disadvantages.

 

On 2/15/2021 at 12:52 PM, razo+r said:

AI will always do a looping if it knows that it is faster than you or infront of you. 

 

If it is behind you, it will follow you, but has serious issues with certain maneuvers, so they will go vertical again. 

 

Basically, AI can only do two/three maneuvers. 

 

Follow you

Do looping

And from time to time also crash into the ground

 

Thanks man. Started to observe that, and that's exactly what they do. It doesn't matter if you they are a FW-190 or a Mig-15, they will always do the same pattern.

This is an amazing sim! 'Nuff said!:pilotfly:

 

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The MiG-15 AI flight model is probably one of the worst, so it in particular doesn't provide a great experience to dogfight. That said, earlier jets were slower and more optimized for slow speed combat relative to modern fighters. You can't necessarily expect to out turn them. You should be able to easily outclimb and out run them though (at least if the flight model is accurate).

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Never ever ever set the AI skill above Normal (or trained?), and for the Mig-15 it should honestly just be set to Rookie because it's notoriously silly. From what I recall, you can definitely outrun an AI Mig-15, but depending on energy state it may not be possible to outclimb them because DCS spaghetti code.

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  • 3 weeks later...

ED updated the AI late last year and imo it's exactly correct as far as energy and maneuverability. The AI flying modern jets seems to be too efficiency minded (not aggressive enough) and too willing to accept a stalemate (that "infinite" vertical loop they'll take you in when you get on their tail).

 

After reading your post I decided to jump in a sabre and see how a couple of the MiG-15 "Ace" AI was. And it is terrifying LOL

AFTER flying against the MiG15 in a Sabre I DEFINATLY understand the issues you were likely having against a MiG 15 in an F-16. But at no point did I feel the AI wasn't representing the capabilities of the MiG-15: when I thought I should have energy on them I did; when I didn't, I didn't.

 

What is the solution?

The biggest and probably only advantage the MiG 15 has over the F-16 is weight. Yes, the F-16 has the best thrust to weight ratio in the universe. Yes it is the lightest of all the modern jet fighters. Yet it still weighs 20,000 lbs empty! The MiG-15 is 8,000 lbs empty.

Briefly imagine making a tiny airframe out of aluminum foil. When you toss it, it does a loop. Then, if you were to make another airframe that weighed twice as much as the first, even if you put in improvements that you learned while making the first, the heavier airframe is going to be less maneuverable when you toss it into a loop; it just is.

 

What this means is that all things being equal, the MiG-15 is more maneuverable. Of course, all things are not equal and that extra 10,000lbs in an F-16 gets a lot of advantages.

IMO I wouldn't try to use the F-16's thrust to weight ratio to win: The MiG's powerplant can keep him at 300kts indicated and at that speed a MiG in front of your canopy will have no problem maneuvering behind your canopy.

I think the trick would be to use the F-16's speed and acceleration. Use your greater speed to circle at a distance and see if you can sac your speed to trap him into a lower energy state. Once you do that you should be able to use your acceleration to maneuver for a kill faster than he can regain his speed to exploit his light airframe.

I also think tactically you might be able to get advantages deploying speed brakes.

 

That's my theory anyway. I'm gonna try it this weekend and I'll post if I find anything insightful.

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb Theodore42:

ED updated the AI late last year and imo it's exactly correct as far as energy and maneuverability. The AI flying modern jets seems to be too efficiency minded (not aggressive enough) and too willing to accept a stalemate (that "infinite" vertical loop they'll take you in when you get on their tail).

 

After reading your post I decided to jump in a sabre and see how a couple of the MiG-15 "Ace" AI was. And it is terrifying LOL

AFTER flying against the MiG15 in a Sabre I DEFINATLY understand the issues you were likely having against a MiG 15 in an F-16. But at no point did I feel the AI wasn't representing the capabilities of the MiG-15: when I thought I should have energy on them I did; when I didn't, I didn't.

 

What is the solution?

The biggest and probably only advantage the MiG 15 has over the F-16 is weight. Yes, the F-16 has the best thrust to weight ratio in the universe. Yes it is the lightest of all the modern jet fighters. Yet it still weighs 20,000 lbs empty! The MiG-15 is 8,000 lbs empty.

Briefly imagine making a tiny airframe out of aluminum foil. When you toss it, it does a loop. Then, if you were to make another airframe that weighed twice as much as the first, even if you put in improvements that you learned while making the first, the heavier airframe is going to be less maneuverable when you toss it into a loop; it just is.

 

What this means is that all things being equal, the MiG-15 is more maneuverable. Of course, all things are not equal and that extra 10,000lbs in an F-16 gets a lot of advantages.

IMO I wouldn't try to use the F-16's thrust to weight ratio to win: The MiG's powerplant can keep him at 300kts indicated and at that speed a MiG in front of your canopy will have no problem maneuvering behind your canopy.

I think the trick would be to use the F-16's speed and acceleration. Use your greater speed to circle at a distance and see if you can sac your speed to trap him into a lower energy state. Once you do that you should be able to use your acceleration to maneuver for a kill faster than he can regain his speed to exploit his light airframe.

I also think tactically you might be able to get advantages deploying speed brakes.

 

That's my theory anyway. I'm gonna try it this weekend and I'll post if I find anything insightful.

 

That is right- if you let yourself drag into a slow fight, you will lose it with the F-16.  If you get your speed up and create an energy fight, he can't follow. You can drag him to where he has no chance. The only advantage he has is being lighter, and more agile on low speeds.
Go fast, around the 420-550kts mark and pull a 9X on his tail. There is nothing he can do about it. A gun fight is a bit different since he'll always be able to point his nose in your general direction. But then- if you wanted a gun fight, you wouldn't have brought  a 4th gen fighter with HMCS. Separate, pop a heater.

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3 hours ago, Theodore42 said:

The biggest and probably only advantage the MiG 15 has over the F-16 is weight. Yes, the F-16 has the best thrust to weight ratio in the universe. Yes it is the lightest of all the modern jet fighters. Yet it still weighs 20,000 lbs empty! The MiG-15 is 8,000 lbs empty.

 

Briefly imagine making a tiny airframe out of aluminum foil. When you toss it, it does a loop. Then, if you were to make another airframe that weighed twice as much as the first, even if you put in improvements that you learned while making the first, the heavier airframe is going to be less maneuverable when you toss it into a loop; it just is.

That's not really right. F=ma. You combat mass with more force, in this case wing area and thrust. The MiG being lighter doesn't necessarily contribute to better maneuverability. What does is being designed for slower speeds and gun fights. The MiG was expected to fight in close with other aircraft firmly at subsonic speeds. It has a moderate wing sweep with decent aspect ratio to lower drag in that regime. The F-16 on the other hand has a lower aspect ratio delta wing for transonic performance and speed that allows it to cross 10's or 100's of miles between targets.

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 Set up 6 v 6 guns only Vipers vs 15's.  Give yourself some sidewinders to "even the odds".  What's the endurance like for the Mig?  The Viper can dogfight for an hour on internal tanks.

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vor 8 Minuten schrieb Exorcet:

That's not really right. F=ma. You combat mass with more force, in this case wing area and thrust. The MiG being lighter doesn't necessarily contribute to better maneuverability. What does is being designed for slower speeds and gun fights. The MiG was expected to fight in close with other aircraft firmly at subsonic speeds. It has a moderate wing sweep with decent aspect ratio to lower drag in that regime. The F-16 on the other hand has a lower aspect ratio delta wing for transonic performance and speed that allows it to cross 10's or 100's of miles between targets.

What I meant is that the MiG-15 can turn tighter because it can operate on smaller speeds than the F-16. So you shouldn't get yourself dragged into that kind of fight.
It is not wise to get into a turning fight with a MiG-15 if you are sitting in an F-16.
- In a 1 vs 1, you can easily disengage, zoom out and come back with a heater or gun run
- In a 2 vs 2, you can switch targets and clear each others six with a heater

- In a 1 vs many you can just blow through the fight, leave at the other end and be never seen again

- You have missiles, the MiG-15 has nothing that is comparable to the AIM-9M or even X

The advantages the F-16 has are power, sensors and guided weapons. The older MiG is a better gunfighter at subsonic speeds, and is most probably more agile below 300kts. Stripping away every advantage the F-16 by removing the missiles and making the radar useless is simply putting the F-16 back into the 50-60's with a better T/W ratio and a better gunfight.
It's cool for the thrill of a gunfight, but you'd usually avoid any fight once you are winchester. The gun is something that gets you out of trouble below Rmin of the heaters.

It depends on what you expect from such a fight- the thrill of a gun fight because you love gunfights or getting an engagement done in the most efficient way. I'm more into the second way- only go in a fight if you have the upper hand, and if you do, leave the enemy no chance to react. However, if you are into gunfights because you enjoy BFM's, you might seek a different approach. If you do, I can't participate to the discussion because I am a dirty dogfighter, always going for a heater shot rather than a gun solution, using AMRAAMs in dogfights, sometimes leaving fights if I have not the upper hand or even zooming straight through without even banking. And avoiding dogfights because they cost situational awareness and fuel.

I'm cool with both, I admire you BFM guys, discussing E/M charts, maneuvers and stuff. Most of my fights don't even have two full circles.

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10 minutes ago, TobiasA said:

using AMRAAMs in dogfights

Give yourself a challenge. 🙂  I hear you on these guys.  They can out turn the Viper easily.  Same for the 19 and 21 btw.   

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After the merge just fly straight up. The AI will follow you until it stalls. When that happens you just turn around and pounce. Biggest challenge is not losing sight of the enemy plane. 

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4 hours ago, TobiasA said:

What I meant is that the MiG-15 can turn tighter because it can operate on smaller speeds than the F-16. So you shouldn't get yourself dragged into that kind of fight.

Oh I wasn't disagreeing with the overall message, I just wanted to provided a little more detail on the physical reasons why the MiG vs Viper matchup works out like it does.

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vor 16 Stunden schrieb glide:

Give yourself a challenge. 🙂  I hear you on these guys.  They can out turn the Viper easily.  Same for the 19 and 21 btw.   

Anything that kills fast without hurting myself is legit. AMRAAMs aren't so bad in dogfights, you need to create a two circle fight though if you can (not advisable against AA-11). Lag pursuit is your friend, give your enemy the idea of an upper hand do he separates, then pull tight and pickle. It is like bringing a longsword to a knife fight in a phone booth, but still... If you create room, it is deadly. If he decides to not give you the space, you can still use your gun. The thing is: He needs to make a tight fight. He can't play on energy because your heaters are better. So he will be slow. Many of the old IR missiles don't even have the range to get you if you separate out of a superior energy state and if you separate into the sun, many of them are useless. So you can leave the fight, turn and kill him with the sun in your back with little that he can do about it. 

However the 21 can really make life hard if you let it come close. It is fast and agile, a somewhat worthy enemy in a pure gun fight.

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On 3/6/2021 at 4:07 PM, Theodore42 said:

 

 

" Yes, the F-16 has the best thrust to weight ratio in the universe."

 

That's the best sentencen in the universe. LOL.

Thank you for doing the video. it was entertaining.

 

By the answers I got in this post I see that the best tactic againts a Mig-15 with a modern fighter is to go boom and zoom. Taking advantage of the F-16's superior power. And that's it. In a gun fight against the Mig, it is the way to go. 

 

 

On 3/6/2021 at 8:04 PM, TobiasA said:

What I meant is that the MiG-15 can turn tighter because it can operate on smaller speeds than the F-16. So you shouldn't get yourself dragged into that kind of fight.
It is not wise to get into a turning fight with a MiG-15 if you are sitting in an F-16.
- In a 1 vs 1, you can easily disengage, zoom out and come back with a heater or gun run
- In a 2 vs 2, you can switch targets and clear each others six with a heater

- In a 1 vs many you can just blow through the fight, leave at the other end and be never seen again

- You have missiles, the MiG-15 has nothing that is comparable to the AIM-9M or even X

The advantages the F-16 has are power, sensors and guided weapons. The older MiG is a better gunfighter at subsonic speeds, and is most probably more agile below 300kts. Stripping away every advantage the F-16 by removing the missiles and making the radar useless is simply putting the F-16 back into the 50-60's with a better T/W ratio and a better gunfight.
It's cool for the thrill of a gunfight, but you'd usually avoid any fight once you are winchester. The gun is something that gets you out of trouble below Rmin of the heaters.

It depends on what you expect from such a fight- the thrill of a gun fight because you love gunfights or getting an engagement done in the most efficient way. I'm more into the second way- only go in a fight if you have the upper hand, and if you do, leave the enemy no chance to react. However, if you are into gunfights because you enjoy BFM's, you might seek a different approach. If you do, I can't participate to the discussion because I am a dirty dogfighter, always going for a heater shot rather than a gun solution, using AMRAAMs in dogfights, sometimes leaving fights if I have not the upper hand or even zooming straight through without even banking. And avoiding dogfights because they cost situational awareness and fuel.

I'm cool with both, I admire you BFM guys, discussing E/M charts, maneuvers and stuff. Most of my fights don't even have two full circles.

 

The F-35 must be your favorite jet then. A BVR monster, not so much in BFM.

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This is an amazing sim! 'Nuff said!:pilotfly:

 

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vor 4 Stunden schrieb RodBorza:

The F-35 must be your favorite jet then. A BVR monster, not so much in BFM.

No... Way too expensive, way too inefficient in terms of today's basic workload which mainly includes fighting rebels in the bushes. You need a few of these as a spearhead in a big conflict, but they should not be your only leg to stand on. 

Stealth is important in some cases, but you also need reliable workhorses that do the same job for a fourth of the price.

People praise fast jets, but what I really wait for is the meteor which has a variable thrust, can reach wide and still has power in the endgame. It will never come in DCS or will get banned on many servers... 

I am a fan of Gripen and Typhoon. 

You also can't say which is the better aircraft, you can only say which is the best platform for a specific job.

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On 3/8/2021 at 7:34 PM, RodBorza said:

The F-35 must be your favorite jet then

With the level of automation achieved in the F-22 and up, you wonder why they even put humans in the cockpit anymore. 

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On 3/6/2021 at 11:07 AM, Theodore42 said:

After reading your post I decided to jump in a sabre and see how a couple of the MiG-15 "Ace" AI was. And it is terrifying LOL

That was very nice dogfighting!  Thank you for sharing.

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I think there's more going on here than just wing sweep being optimized for a certain flight regime, and the MiG-15 being lighter or having a good TWR.  I haven't looked at a MiG-15 track file yet, but I did this earlier with the L-39 on Ace level a couple weeks ago when I noticed it was surprisingly hard to beat.  I posted about this on reddit after watching the track file and finding it defies physics.

 

If you plug these numbers into a calculator, like this one:http://www.csgnetwork.com/aircraftturninfocalc.html

...you find that thrust-to-weight, drag, etc. are not part of the equation. At a certain G and speed, you get a certain turn rate, period, and you just can't make 360 degrees in 27 seconds at only 2 G at 180 kts.

 

My suspicion is that after catching the L-39 red-handed, that the MiG-15 is also cheating.

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Use the vertical.  The F-16 has a lot of thrust above 400knots.  Just go up and observe that the Mig-15 cannot follow.  Then go down and use roll to match his turn.

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  • 2 weeks later...

 

Yes here you go.

Ace AI MiG-15 vs F-16

 

I had to study my BFM to get this because the Korea Era fighters are so maneuverable. You MUST fly proper BFM to defeat them, but if you do, then you will be rewarded.

And never are my mistakes more obvious than when flying against a MiG-15. This makes studying BFM fast and easy!

 

I almost wonder if the AI for later eras are assuming it is an IR dogfight? Or if there is something different about later era fighters that makes them less punishing in BFM.

 

In short, this is the most fun I've had fighting an AI, ever, in any game. I've been posting videos of me dogfighting 2 or 4 hostile AIs because I was looking for a challenge. But this is the best 🙂

 

Edit:

Okay I should give some commentary on what to do:

1. You have to stay at the low end of corner speed, 330kts, to keep with him.

Otherwise his turn radius is too small. Also this is the only way to run him out of energy. If you do normal F-16 things he will always be at corner speed and always be able to get inside of whatever normal F-16 things you're doing.

2. Use advantages: 8Gs and acceleration.

Staying at 330kts is fine and all but it isn't going to get you an advantage. Fortunately the F-16 can accelerate from 330kts to 450kts in a few seconds. Doing this at the right time can give an advantage.

Pulling 8Gs when he is on your tail will get him off your tail. Also, if you manage to be going 450kts in the right place, you can pull 8G+ down to 330kts and get an advantage. And look really cool while doing it.

3. The vertical is useless.

The F-16 is a race car going around the Indy 500 and the MiG-15 is a go-cart going around a go-cart track. There needs to be a follow up maneuver after whatever you do in the vertical. As I said earlier, when you get a bunch of energy on the MiG-15 but the MiG is at corner speed.... He is just going to whip his light little low-turn-radius fighter around on you.

In my experience the AI didn't mess with the vertical unless he could use it to get an advantage on me (while I was doing something stupid). If you're better than me maybe to can figure something out.

 

Anyway, this MiG-15 AI has taught me more about BFM than any other, and I STILL haven't beaten it. (Although I have had opportunities that I was unable to execute on.) Don't feel like you're doing something wrong if you can't get this guy. If you're playing against something less than ACE AI then you should be able to get a few opportunities doing what I've listed above.

But as for the Ace AI, you really have to know what you're doing much more than you do against any modern jet fighter.

 

Crazy fun though.


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