A question regarding now functioning electronic jamming

[Kev2go]

IM wondering how is it that in F15 Su27, or Jf17 you can still actively be using ECM but still have the possibility of operating the radar

 

but in the Hornet, the ECM is designed that it shuts off all radar functionality when it get activated after a lock on?  IS the interference that much more worse that they needed to do it in such a manner?

 

seems like too big a of a trade off to be worth using in A2A combat given crude implementation of electronic warfare in DCS, when the others do not have make sacrificial tradeoffs

 

 

Edited February 8, 2021 by Kev2go

[falcon_120]

Well, the short answer would be yes, and I hope that at some point in future they will revisit all ecm implementations.

 

But it's also worth mentioning that ECM implementation in A2A combat is somewhat neligible. Right now it only helps denying very long lofted Fox3, since if i`m not wrong HoJ shots will follow a direct path instead of lofting.

 

Basically inside 25 nm ish you should always turn your ecm off despite which aircraft you are flying, or you will have a decoy asking for a silent missile (i'm looking at you Aim7)

[Cytarabine]

4 hours ago, falcon_120 said:

Well, the short answer would be yes, and I hope that at some point in future they will revisit all ecm implementations.

 

But it's also worth mentioning that ECM implementation in A2A combat is somewhat neligible. Right now it only helps denying very long lofted Fox3, since if i`m not wrong HoJ shots will follow a direct path instead of lofting.

 

Basically inside 25 nm ish you should always turn your ecm off despite which aircraft you are flying, or you will have a decoy asking for a silent missile (i'm looking at you Aim7)

I find the main advantage so far (whether this is placebo or not because who knows which modules are affected by jamming) has been stopping Tomcats launching Phoenixes with impunity due to their range. 
 

I keep my jammer on until around 20nm when I can send an AMRAAM their way and have them have something to think about while beaming the inevitable Phoenix headed my way.

 

Once within 20nm the jammer stays off. At any rate within that range their radar is going to burn through as well so you are just shooting your self in the foot by having it on. For ease of use I have the jammer switch mapped to a spare button on my HOTAS. 
 

(and yes HoJ shots should follow a less efficient path I think)

[Ahmed]

 

14 hours ago, Kev2go said:

IM wondering how is it that in F15 Su27, or Jf17 you can still actively be using ECM but still have the possibility of operating the radar

 

but in the Hornet, the ECM is designed that it shuts off all radar functionality when it get activated after a lock on?  IS the interference that much more worse that they needed to do it in such a manner?

 

seems like too big a of a trade off to be worth using in A2A combat given crude implementation of electronic warfare in DCS, when the others do not have make sacrificial tradeoffs

 

 

 

 

There is a radar / jammer filter priority logic for exactly this reason. Aside from being togglable from the RDR ATTK page, it is automatically enabled while guiding an Aim-7 or Aim-120.

However, it is not implemented in DCS.

[Harker]

I find the main advantage so far (whether this is placebo or not because who knows which modules are affected by jamming) has been stopping Tomcats launching Phoenixes with impunity due to their range. 
 
I keep my jammer on until around 20nm when I can send an AMRAAM their way and have them have something to think about while beaming the inevitable Phoenix headed my way.
 
Once within 20nm the jammer stays off. At any rate within that range their radar is going to burn through as well so you are just shooting your self in the foot by having it on. For ease of use I have the jammer switch mapped to a spare button on my HOTAS. 
 
(and yes HoJ shots should follow a less efficient path I think)

The Tomcat doesn't have jamming effects on the radar display though.

[Cytarabine]

3 minutes ago, Harker said:

13 hours ago, Cytarabine said:

I find the main advantage so far (whether this is placebo or not because who knows which modules are affected by jamming) has been stopping Tomcats launching Phoenixes with impunity due to their range. 
 
I keep my jammer on until around 20nm when I can send an AMRAAM their way and have them have something to think about while beaming the inevitable Phoenix headed my way.
 
Once within 20nm the jammer stays off. At any rate within that range their radar is going to burn through as well so you are just shooting your self in the foot by having it on. For ease of use I have the jammer switch mapped to a spare button on my HOTAS. 
 
(and yes HoJ shots should follow a less efficient path I think)

The Tomcat doesn't have jamming effects on the radar display though.

Hence why I wondered placebo (currently only been testing it against AI as I haven’t had time to get online much). 

[Steel Jaw]

I do NOT like this feature of active ECM silencing the radar.  BVR is where ECM should be used up until burn through but also its where I want the radar to direct my slammers.  Is this feature realistic??

[QuiGon]

20 hours ago, Cytarabine said:

I find the main advantage so far (whether this is placebo or not because who knows which modules are affected by jamming) has been stopping Tomcats launching Phoenixes with impunity due to their range.

 

As Harker pointed out already, there are no jamming effects on the Tomcat (yet)...

 

7 hours ago, Mower said:

I do NOT like this feature of active ECM silencing the radar.  BVR is where ECM should be used up until burn through but also its where I want the radar to direct my slammers.  Is this feature realistic??

 

Yes, apparently it is realistic.

Edited February 10, 2021 by QuiGon

[Sarge55]

Doesn't the Mirage have something like this as well? 

[Hodo]

5 minutes ago, Sarge55 said:

Doesn't the Mirage have something like this as well? 

The Mirage doesn't turn off it's radar to do it.  Not in game anyway.  Also the Mirage has a pretty weak radar.

 

You can detect a F-18 closing at co-alt. Around 50nm at best.  Usually about 30-40nm.  

 

The Hornet will see you at 70nm. 

 

Your jammer will buy you maybe 10nm before they burn through it.  

 

And you still have to close to within 16nm to get any chance with the 530d.

[QuiGon]

7 minutes ago, Hodo said:

And you still have to close to within 16nm to get any chance with the 530d.

 

Tell that the Space Mirages...

Edited February 10, 2021 by QuiGon

[Hodo]

1 hour ago, QuiGon said:

 

Tell that the Space Mirages...

 

LoL yeah right up there next to the MiG-29s, F-15s, F-14s and rocket ship F-16s.

[Drac]

17 hours ago, Mower said:

I do NOT like this feature of active ECM silencing the radar.  BVR is where ECM should be used up until burn through but also its where I want the radar to direct my slammers.  Is this feature realistic??

I don't like it either.  To get around it, I set a switch to turn it on and off.  Like you, want to use slammers at my option.

[Kev2go]

On 2/9/2021 at 8:37 AM, Ahmed said:

 

 

There is a radar / jammer filter priority logic for exactly this reason. Aside from being togglable from the RDR ATTK page, it is automatically enabled while guiding an Aim-7 or Aim-120.

However, it is not implemented in DCS.

 

 

hmm so i guess the EW is still EA, as ED didnt not implment these options? Or are they saving more advanced opton when they figure out thier new EW API?

[QuiGon]

10 hours ago, Kev2go said:

hmm so i guess the EW is still EA, as ED didnt not implment these options? Or are they saving more advanced opton when they figure out thier new EW API?

 

Or neither and we just don't get this functionality in DCS.

[Hulkbust44]

On 2/9/2021 at 8:24 PM, Mower said:

I do NOT like this feature of active ECM silencing the radar.  BVR is where ECM should be used up until burn through but also its where I want the radar to direct my slammers.  Is this feature realistic??

As I understand it, it also uses the radar to send competing signals to the target of the jammer. (I may be completely wrong tho)

 

Yes, it is realistic.

[Ahmed]

 

22 minutes ago, Hulkbust44 said:

As I understand it, it also uses the radar to send competing signals to the target of the jammer. (I may be completely wrong tho)

Do you have any source for this claim? As far as I know only some 5th gen platforms have this capability.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Ahmed

[Harlikwin]

On 2/8/2021 at 4:06 PM, Kev2go said:

IM wondering how is it that in F15 Su27, or Jf17 you can still actively be using ECM but still have the possibility of operating the radar

 

but in the Hornet, the ECM is designed that it shuts off all radar functionality when it get activated after a lock on?  IS the interference that much more worse that they needed to do it in such a manner?

 

seems like too big a of a trade off to be worth using in A2A combat given crude implementation of electronic warfare in DCS, when the others do not have make sacrificial tradeoffs

 

 

 

 

Welcome to DCS, I see you are "new" here (j/k)

 

As I see it, it will force the 3rd pary devs to "update" their ECM models. Though for FC3 I bet ED doesn't.

 

On 2/10/2021 at 11:19 AM, Sarge55 said:

Doesn't the Mirage have something like this as well? 

 

It should IRL. You have 2 modes, use the radar and jammer or prioritize the jammer. IRL the F18 has this too, shame ED chose not to model it right.

 

On 2/9/2021 at 7:24 PM, Mower said:

I do NOT like this feature of active ECM silencing the radar.  BVR is where ECM should be used up until burn through but also its where I want the radar to direct my slammers.  Is this feature realistic??

 

IRL its a choice/tradeoff. The F18 has a setting which is "defensive" where you radar is borked, or a less effective ECM setting where you can still use the radar (albeit the radar is also fucked). Various other aircraft other than the F18 also deal with this connundrum in a similar way.

 

Edited February 12, 2021 by Harlikwin

[Harlikwin]

On 2/11/2021 at 3:01 PM, Kev2go said:

 

 

hmm so i guess the EW is still EA, as ED didnt not implment these options? Or are they saving more advanced opton when they figure out thier new EW API?

 

ED implementing realistic EW is gonna be fucking nightmare, and its gonna be unbalanced and wrong as hell for a long time.

 

Think of it this way, your radar operates on frequencies XYZ. Everyone elses radar operates on Frequency ranges XYZ too. So. That jammer is gonna try to jam Freqs XYZ. Since you are the closest to the "jammer" you are gonna be affected far more than the guy 40nm away because of R^2. In the various "bypass" modes, its gonna let you use freq Y, but its still gonna get desensed by the jammer to some extent, and your best hope is that the other guy's radar doesn't figure that out or work on freq Y.
 

In a similar fashion, even operating your flights radar on the same freq as your flight mates is gonna bone it.

 

Practically what this is gonna mean for DCS "MP" for the near future is a nightmare, just like the whole R27/aim120 fiasco. One set of standards for one plane/side one whole other set of standards for everyone else. Its mind boggling/disappointing that ED chooses to develop the game this way to me.

 

Edited February 12, 2021 by Harlikwin

[Harker]

Think of it this way, your radar operates on frequencies XYZ. Everyone elses radar operates on Frequency ranges XYZ too. So. That jammer is gonna try to jam Freqs XYZ. Since you are the closest to the "jammer" you are gonna be affected far more than the guy 40nm away because of R^2. In the various "bypass" modes, its gonna let you use freq Y, but its still gonna get desensed by the jammer to some extent, and your best hope is that the other guy's radar doesn't figure that out or work on freq Y.

That's actually a pretty good description. It's a kind of dance vs your opponent. If you can figure out the frequency range(s) they jam, you can negate most of their ECM's effect and vice versa. Plus, that 21 NM burn through range is BS, a radar can be jammed from up close just fine, if the appropriate ECM technique is used.

I'm not 100% certain, but from what I understand, the Channel option in the Radar page can be used to operate in different frequency ranges, IRL. And frequency ranges is something doable in the sim, it's just one more variable in the radar/ECM lookup table.

In the meantime, a compromise would be to have the normal noise jamming with the radar in bypass mode and what we have now if bypass mode is not enabled.

[Ahmed]

The primary usage of the radar channel, AFAIK, is to prevent interference between radars in close proximity (i.e. wingmen). While it would be great to have them in the sim, they shoudn't really have any effect over any decent DECM setup, as the processor will generate appropriate signals for whatever it has identified as the threat it intends to deceive.

[Dragon1-1]

Tactical aircraft jammers, especially are typically highly automated and don't allow the pilots to tweak them much. It's both a curse and a blessing. The former because there isn't really much in terms of gameplay opportunities here. The latter, because you don't need any classified info to model them. I hope we'll see some of that when the new IADS module comes out.