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A-6 Intruder variants


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51 minutes ago, TLTeo said:

That has less to do with its capabilities and more to do with its range (and the Tomcat's) being considerably larger than the Hornet-only fleet they have now though.

 

I was to say the same. Every aircraft had it's time in history. In 1990s A-6, A-7 time has passed and Hornet could do all of that and more. Hornet just didn't have the range but Navy ignored that since Soviet Union was no more and everyone started to count every single $.

 

What is more after USSR collapsed F-14s days were also numbered, it lost it's purpose, Navy didn't need high performance interceptor because there was no Soviet supersonic bombers anymore, they tried to save Tomcat as long as possible making a bomber out of it but after all Hornets were far more modern with digital avionics and far cheaper. They didn't even let the Tomcats to shoot Iraqi aircrafts during Desert Storm.

 

 

 

My dream is late Cold War trio A-6, A-7 and F-14, all in Cold War Forrestal Class carrier. All having their purpose and specialisation, A-7 for CAS and attacking tactical targets, A-6 for low level strike and F-14 for fleet defense and escort attack aircrafts.

In 1990s/2000s it became all Hornet doing everything, maybe without A-6 range or Tomcat fleet defense capabilities but without Soviet danger Navy didn't need that. Electronics did all the job.

Cold War fleet 3.jpg

Cold War fleet.jpg

 

 

 

 

EDIT: I see some developer named Flying Iron Simulations is making Cold War A-7E for DCS!

 

 


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30 minutes ago, bies said:

SWIP could do low level strike in high threat environment under one condition - going back in time at least a decade.

 

Real life A-6 pilot stated SWIP can't do that because it was not survivable when it became operational and it's mission disappeared.

 

Then why did SWIPs do low level strikes during desert storm? one of the highest thread enviroments in that timeframe.

infact there was only 7 uses of the SLAM during the whole of desert storm

most of the strikes done by SWIP was either with unguided bombs, napalm or cluster bombs

 

few times they used Mavericks and SKIPPER II (but thats something the TRAM also did)

 

41 minutes ago, bies said:

Or maybe i didn't understand you and you are just proposing using 1990s SWIP in 1980s just restricting it's weapon?

mid/late 80s SWIP with metal wings looks exactly the same as a A-6E TRAM that was used in all these 80s operations
But it has more weapon loads due to its software upgrade.

 

late TRAMS even had the missile panel that the SWIP got

as I said, SWIP actually was just a software upgrade with slight revisions to the panels in the cockpit and later a revision to the wings

 

the SWIP 1a was a later upgrade that was not initially planned for the SWIP

30 minutes ago, bies said:

SWIP wasn't even a thing those times.

the earliest SWIP was build 8th Jan 1986

and doing some research it apears early SWIPs indeed where part in praying mantis in 1988 (not 100% sure on that though)

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Berserk said:

 

I was to say the same. Every aircraft had it's time in history. In 1990s A-6, A-7 time has passed and Hornet could do all of that and more. Hornet just didn't have the range but Navy ignored that since Soviet Union was no more and everyone started to count every single $.

 

What is more after USSR collapsed F-14s days were also numbered, it lost it's purpose, Navy didn't need high performance interceptor because there was no Soviet supersonic bombers anymore, they tried to save Tomcat as long as possible making a bomber out of it but after all Hornets were far more modern with digital avionics and far cheaper. They didn't even let the Tomcats to shoot Iraqi aircrafts during Desert Storm.

 

 

 

My dream is late Cold War trio A-6, A-7 and F-14, all in Cold War Forrestal Class carrier. All having their purpose and specialisation, A-7 for CAS and attacking tactical targets, A-6 for low level strike and F-14 for fleet defense and escort attack aircrafts.

In 1990s/2000s it became all Hornet doing everything, maybe without A-6 range or Tomcat fleet defense capabilities but without Soviet danger Navy didn't need that. Electronics did all the job.

Cold War fleet 3.jpg

Cold War fleet.jpg

 

 

 

 

EDIT: I see some developer named Flying Iron Simulations is making Cold War A-7E for DCS!

 

 

 

 

Exactly, their 3rd party A-7E has been officially announced by ED.

 

48 minutes ago, Iron_physik said:

why did SWIPs do low level strikes during desert storm

 

In Desert Storm 9 out of 11 A-6E squadrons used exclusively TRAM and 2 used SWIP together with TRAM.

1614104526187_A-6E Persian Gulf.png

 

Yes Desert Storm was the last operation A-6 and A-7 were able to operate in high threat environment - but only after most Iraq air defense had been mostly paralyzed and destroyed by Navy Tomahawks, Army AH-64s, USAF B-52s, RAF Tornadoes and USAF F-117s and under total undisputed air dominance.

And only task A-6 performed at first night was to release decoy drones from long range.

 

Great Desert Storm animated time-lapse:

https://youtu.be/zxRgfBXn6Mg


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1 hour ago, Iron_physik said:

the earliest SWIP was build 8th Jan 1986

 

Where first SWIP aircraft became operational in any squadron?

According to "A-6 Intruder Units 1974-96", page 97, first SWIP was introduced in year 1990. That's why there was such small number of SWIP aircrafts in Desert Storm.


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24 minutes ago, bies said:

Yes Desert Storm was the last operation A-6 and A-7 were able to operate in high threat environment - but only after most Iraq air defense had been mostly paralyzed and destroyed by Navy Tomahawks, Army AH-64s, USAF B-52s, RAF Tornadoes and USAF F-117s and under total undisputed air dominance.

And only task A-6 performed at first night was to release decoy drones from long range.

 

Great Desert Storm animated time-lapse:

https://youtu.be/zxRgfBXn6Mg

 

if you would actually read real reports you would realize that droping Decoys was only 1 task the A-6 performed at night 0

they also where part in SEAD strikes firing HARMs and also striking iraqi airfields with bombs at low level.

 

grafik.png

 

Just a little excerpt from:

grafik.png

You likely cant get a more official source than this

 

 

5 minutes ago, Berserk said:

 

Where first SWIP aircraft became operational in any squadron?

According to "A-6 Intruder Units 1974-96", page 97, first SWIP was introduced in year 1990. That's why there was such small number of SWIP aircrafts in Desert Storm.

 

my source is this list of every A-6 model in service coming from the A-6 intruder accosiation:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BDCTaVcxTdvRZ7eDLv03ANhLzgLHuHWf/edit#gid=184788571

down at the bottom is a number of A-6E SWIP build in 1986-87

 

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21 minutes ago, Iron_physik said:

my source is this list of every A-6 model in service coming from the A-6 intruder accosiation:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BDCTaVcxTdvRZ7eDLv03ANhLzgLHuHWf/edit#gid=184788571

down at the bottom is a number of A-6E SWIP build in 1986-87

I didn't see find source to confirm that. Do you have any data to support this table? I'll ask at Intruder Assotiation the by an email, they should still remember.

But anyway, the first operation any squadron using SWIP aircraft was Desert Storm.


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2 hours ago, Berserk said:

 

My dream is late Cold War trio A-6, A-7 and F-14, all in Cold War Forrestal Class carrier. All having their purpose and specialisation, A-7 for CAS and attacking tactical targets, A-6 for low level strike and F-14 for fleet defense and escort attack aircrafts.

 

And let's be honest, Cold War 1980s A-6E making low level strike - without having standoff weapon, performing terrain fallowing flight, at bad weather or at night, avoiding enemy radars and interceptors, deep over enemy terrain, cooperating with navigator to be at specific point and orientation over the target, maneuvering to fit on a small weapon envelope and manually aim and drop unguided bombs using FLIR and radar, dodging AAA fire, seeing your bomb explosions all around you and targets being shredded to pieces. Then running for your life trying to lose possible pursuers in dark narrow canyons. That's why I'm excited for Intruder!

 

1990s cruise at 15-20.000ft, releasing SLAM from ~50nm from outside enemy defence and RTB. Meh. Hornet can do it better, and that's not exciting at all.

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8 minutes ago, Berserk said:

I didn't see find source to confirm that. Do you have any data to support this table? I'll ask at Intruder Assotiation the by an email, they should still remember.

 

https://www.intruderassociation.org/pdf/Every_A6_that_was_built.xls

here the original download link of the file

 

1 minute ago, bies said:

And let's be honest, Cold War 1980s A-6E making low level strike - without having standoff weapon, performing terrain fallowing flight, at bad weather or at night, avoiding enemy radars and interceptors, deep over enemy terrain, cooperating with navigator to be at specific point and orientation over the target, maneuvering to fit on a small weapon envelope and manually aim and drop unguided bombs using FLIR and radar, dodging AAA fire, seeing your bomb explosions all around you and targets being shredded to pieces. Then running for your life trying to lose possible pursuers in dark narrow canyons. That's why I'm excited for Intruder!

 

1990s cruise at 15-20.000ft, releasing SLAM from ~50nm from outside enemy defence and RTB. Meh. Hornet can do it better, and that's not exciting at all.

 

you can still do all of that with a SWIP

just because its more modern doesnt mean its incapable of doing its original role

 

I want to have the SWIP, because its the only intruder capable of using Walleyes

for SLAM a late model TRAM (aka WCSI) is enough, but only SWIP has Walleye capability

 

most if not all of the A-6 that served in the 80s where WCSI

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I see the solution.

Heatblur made both: F-14A which consisted vast majority of the fleet and made all the fighting in all 1980s, Gulf of Sidra 1981 against Su-22s, 1989 against MiG-23s, whole Iraq-Iran war. And F-14B which may not kill any enemy and consisted only small amount of F-14 fleet.

 

Heatblur can make both A-6E: TRAM/WCSI which consisted vast majority of the fleet and made all the fighting in all 1980s Lebanon, Sidra, El Drado, Prying Mantis, Desert Storm with original analog fuel gauge, no integrated missile panel and orginal RWR. And standoff capable 1990s SWIP which fought in limited numbers in Desert Storm and consisted only small amount of A-6 fleet.

 

This situation looks very similar to Tomcat.

 

Personally i'm interested only in Cold War A-6E TRAM together with A-7E and F-14 on Cold War Forrestal when USSR still existed, on both SP missions and MP servers like 1980s Blue Flag or Alpenwolf Cold War but if someone want also this SWIP i have nothing against it.

 

But modeling ONLY A-6E 1990s SWIP version, when according to it's pilot it was already outdated, and was produced only in very limited numbers, would be sad.


Edited by Berserk
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8 hours ago, Berserk said:

My dream is late Cold War trio A-6, A-7 and F-14, all in Cold War Forrestal Class carrier. All having their purpose and specialisation, A-7 for CAS and attacking tactical targets, A-6 for low level strike and F-14 for fleet defense and escort attack aircrafts.

 

Cold War fleet 3.jpg

 

Amen, brother. 🍻

 

 

6 hours ago, bies said:

And let's be honest, Cold War 1980s A-6E making low level strike - without having standoff weapon, performing terrain fallowing flight, at bad weather or at night, avoiding enemy radars and interceptors, deep over enemy terrain, cooperating with navigator to be at specific point and orientation over the target, maneuvering to fit on a small weapon envelope and manually aim and drop unguided bombs using FLIR and radar, dodging AAA fire, seeing your bomb explosions all around you and targets being shredded to pieces. Then running for your life trying to lose possible pursuers in dark narrow canyons. That's why I'm excited for Intruder!

 

Same. Obviously there's a lot of folks around here who like letting the jet fly them to where they lob a standoff weapon at someone who can't even see them--and your kink is okay! No judgement! 🙂 But that's just not my idea of fun.

 

If Heatblur can do both, then awesome. Rock on. But I know which one I'd like them to focus on.

 

 


Edited by KWard
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why is nobody here realising that the SWIP also mainly flew low level strike missions and barely used standoff weapons???

and that it does this exact job better than TRAMs due to software upgrades introducing things like Tadpoles to the VDI display for terrain avoidance help.

and that your fancy TRAM/WCSI actually introduced the SLAM to the A-6 Fleet, not the SWIP.

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Berserk said:

But modeling ONLY A-6E 1990s SWIP version, when according to it's pilot it was already outdated, and was produced only in very limited numbers, would be sad.

1 guy said it was outdated and that it would not survive the modern battlespace

meanwhile in reality the aircraft he said was outdated did exactly that what he claims is impossible, fly in a high thread enviroment, do low level bombing runs and actually fly freaking SEAD missions.

 

so he was literally wrong about it, and actual combat reports from washington prove that.

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Iron_physik said:

and that your fancy TRAM/WCSI actually introduced the SLAM to the A-6 Fleet, not the SWIP.

No, it's simply not true. TRAM could, in 1990s, only drop SLAM but it needed SWIP wingman to guide them.

And in 1980s this weapon didn't exist.

 

7 hours ago, Iron_physik said:

1 guy said it was outdated and that it would not survive the modern battlespace

meanwhile in reality the aircraft he said was outdated did exactly that what he claims is impossible, fly in a high thread enviroment, do low level bombing runs and actually fly freaking SEAD missions

It was not "one guy" Francesco "Paco" Chierici was A-6 veteran and he new what he was talking about.

 

Desert Storm wasn't high threat environment after Iraq being unable to attack Intruders with any fighters and it's C&C and most of air defence being previously destroyed by Tomahawks, F-117s, Apaches and B-52s.

 

Hight threat environment which "Paco" described was symmetrical enemy with numerous capable interceptors and deep air defense - USSR.

Not USA + NATO coalition + Saudi Arabia against one small 3rd world country Iraq decapitated during one night by overwhelming undisputed superiority of coalition having every possible advantage: numerical, technology, training, resources, intel, satellites, geography, coordination. 

 

What would happen if Intruders would be attacked by dozens of MiG-29s and S-300 deep over enemy terrain?

 

Navy and pilots knew that and Navy did right retiring Intruders in 1990s when their time passed and "their mission disappeared".

And USAF did the same with F-111.

This were Cold War aircrafts which shined during Cold War but then their mission disappeared and after USSR collapsed they had been withdrawn as being both: outdated and not needed.

 

 


Edited by bies
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This is an interesting debate, since a SWIP Intruder would be nothing but a TRAM with some extra weapon capabilities and some extra panels in the cockpit. I don't see why people are calling the SWIP a bad option when you literally can just... Not use the fancy weapons? In the end you can still use it exactly like a TRAM, flying those old missions with iron bombs. I am all for the old mission, going low, fast, in the dark trying to dodge SAMs and raining snake eyes on baddies. But having the option of some newer weapons to somewhat fit with the Hornets and Vipers? I am all for that. The best would be modelling both, but is that really necessary, when the differences are that small? It is of course up to Heatblur to decide which option fits them the best.

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1 hour ago, Marsvinet said:

This is an interesting debate, since a SWIP Intruder would be nothing but a TRAM with some extra weapon capabilities and some extra panels in the cockpit. I don't see why people are calling the SWIP a bad option when you literally can just... Not use the fancy weapons? In the end you can still use it exactly like a TRAM, flying those old missions with iron bombs. I am all for the old mission, going low, fast, in the dark trying to dodge SAMs and raining snake eyes on baddies. But having the option of some newer weapons to somewhat fit with the Hornets and Vipers? I am all for that. The best would be modelling both, but is that really necessary, when the differences are that small? It is of course up to Heatblur to decide which option fits them the best.

EXACTLY!

 

ontop of that: droping low alt iron bombs was the main mission of the SWIP in desert storm.

most pictures you find of SWIPS is with these weapons loaded

 

grafik.png

grafik.png

grafik.png

 

 

 

3 hours ago, bies said:

No, it's simply not true. TRAM could, in 1990s, only drop SLAM but it needed SWIP wingman to guide them.

thats not true

taking a look at the FLight manual reveals that there was 2 datalink pods

AN/AWW-13 (introduced with SWIP):

grafik.png

 

and the older AN/ARQ‑49

grafik.png

the older Pod existed for the TRAM WCSI, meaning that plane was capable of shooting, and guiding SLAM by itself

 

3 hours ago, bies said:

And in 1980s this weapon didn't exist.

that doesnt matter

 

what matters is what the final version can carry, and the TRAM could carry SLAM, and they also used them

so your "only low level plane" actually was one of the planes you are so strongly against, a SLAM shooter.

 

3 hours ago, bies said:

Desert Storm wasn't high threat environment after Iraq being unable to attack Intruders with any fighters and it's C&C and most of air defence being previously destroyed by Tomahawks, F-117s, Apaches and B-52s.

 

Hight threat environment which "Paco" described was symmetrical enemy with numerous capable interceptors and deep air defense - USSR.

Not USA + NATO coalition + Saudi Arabia against one small 3rd world country Iraq decapitated during one night by overwhelming undisputed superiority of coalition having every possible advantage: numerical, technology, training, resources, intel, satellites, geography, coordination. 

funny, its like you totally ignore official pentagon reports that I already showed here in this thread

 

Not only did the pentagon classify IRAQ as high thread throughout the war, NO

the A-6 even bombing missions in the timeframe you claim they didnt fly.

 

also, you may want to read up on the official definition of High thread enviroment

not something some dude says.

because "trust me bro" is not a source, where does he takes his information? he was only 1 guys out of thousands that took part in these operations

 

just for you again:

grafik.pnggrafik.png

 

4 hours ago, bies said:

What would happen if Intruders would be attacked by dozens of MiG-29s and S-300 deep over enemy terrain?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

 

lets take a unrealistic scenario and try to discredit your oponent

comeon, you are better than that.

 

first of all the A-6 always flies together with fighter cover, it even did so over vietnam while doing low level strikes

next the A-6 has multiple different anti radiation missiles to choose from

so a proper strike package would deal with such a enemy just fine

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1 hour ago, Marsvinet said:

I don't see why people are calling the SWIP a bad option when you literally can just... Not use the fancy weapons?

 

Probably because 1990s SWIP with new Integrated Missile Panel, new AN/ALR-67A(V) RWR, new warning lights and new fuzing panel

would be:

  • unrealistic and non-historical at Cold War / 1980s servers like Alpenwolf or BlueFlag and singleplayer missions
  • at the same time completely outdated and also unrealistic and non-historical at 2000s JSOW/AMRAAM servers and singleplayer missions.

Are this few 1990s upgrades and ability to use by far the most boring weapon in it's arsenal - SLAM worth ruining realism and historical accuracy in nearly all scenarios in both SP and MP?

Probably everyone has their own answer - some people want to sacrifice more realism and historical accuracy and some would like to stay on more realistic and historical side.

 

Anyway there were hundreds of classic TRAM aircrafts and only a handful of SWIP.


Edited by bies
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Who ever came up with the idea to call Desert Storm "high threat enviroment"?

 

Some 30-40 US aircrafts has been shoot down during all Desert Shield, Desert Storm and no-fly zone combined.

In Vietnam US lost about 10 000 aircrafts. (in words ten thousand!) Some 300 times more.

 

Still even Vietnam was a lot "smaller threat enviroment" than prospective war against Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact in Europe with their 14000 combat aircrafts.

 

Saddam announced that the war would be completely different, the Americans would be bogged down in the sands of the desert with months-long battles with his battle-hardened army and they will be forced to leave not achieving anything like in Vietnam and he will give the Americans "the mother of all wars" (in Arabic, Um al-Mar'rik).

   Meanwhile Desert Storm turned out to be a walk in the park for the coalition and everyone was genuinely surprised by Iraqi total inability to put up any resistance and the fact that the whole war was won almost without losses in coalition forces.

 

Wining the war and completely destroying war hardened biggest and strongest Middle Eastern army losing some 300 soldiers in the process? Before this war is was unheard of.


Edited by Berserk
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24 minutes ago, bies said:

Probably because 1990s SWIP with new Integrated Missile Panel, new AN/ALR-67A(V) RWR, new warning lights and new fuzing panel

would be:

  • unrealistic and non-historical at Cold War / 1980s servers like Alpenwolf or BlueFlag and singleplayer missions
  • at the same time completely outdated and also unrealistic and non-historical at 2000s JSOW/AMRAAM servers and singleplayer missions.

 

*1980s SWIP or TRAM after AFC 552, a change done in the mid 80s

 

How would it be unrealistic when it was a plane that actually was a thing and flew combat missions?

also, it would not be outdated, I mean people still fly F-14s in the modern servers and do fine there, or they fly AV-8B NA harriers made in the same timeframe and also do totally fine even without GBU-54 or APKWS

 

 

DCS's main timeframe is the early 90s

which is the EXACT timeframe of the SWIP

 

the SWIP is right at home on the persia gulf map

 

 

31 minutes ago, bies said:

Are this few 1990s upgrades and ability to use by far the most boring weapon in it's arsenal - SLAM worth ruining realism and historical accuracy in nearly all scenarios in both SP and MP?

*1980s upgrades

get it right FFS

 

32 minutes ago, bies said:

Anyway there were hundreds of classic TRAM aircrafts and only a handful of SWIP.

the flight manual strongly disagrees here:

the vast Majority of A-6E where WCSI with a fairly high amount of SWIPs

 

Spoiler

unknown.png

unknown.png

unknown.png

unknown.png

unknown.png

 

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, Berserk said:

Who ever came up with the idea to call Desert Storm "high threat enviroment"?

 

Some 30-40 US aircrafts has been shoot down during all Desert Shield, Desert Storm and no-fly zone combined.

In Vietnam US lost about 10 000 aircrafts. (in words ten thousand!) Some 300 times more.

 

Even Vietnam was still a lot "smaller threat enviroment" than prospective war against Soviet Union and Warpac in Europe with their ~14000 combat aircrafts.

 

Saddam announced that the war would be completely different, the Americans would be bogged down in the sands of the desert with months-long battles with his battle-hardened army and they will be forced to leave not achieving anything like in Vietnam and he will give the Americans "the mother of all wars" (in Arabic, Um al-Mar'rik).

   Meanwhile Desert Storm turned out to be a walk in the park for the coalition and everyone was genuinely surprised by flimsy Iraqi resistance and the fact that the whole war was won almost without losses in coalition forces.

 

Wining the war and completely destroying war hardened  the biggest and strongest Middle Eastern army losing some 300 soldiers in the process? Before the war is was pure fantasy, unheard of.

 

im not making the definitions

Pentagon does

 

OV-10 tactical manual, same timeframe as the A-6 manual:

unknown.png

 

unknown.png

 

unknown.png

 

 

by definition Iraq and vietnam where high thread

 

its just that tactics and technology evolved to deal with the threads

the definition is not about how many planes you lose, but what the enemy has

 

and both Vietnam and Iraq had integrated air defences

 

 

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1 hour ago, bies said:

 

Probably because 1990s SWIP with new Integrated Missile Panel, new AN/ALR-67A(V) RWR, new warning lights and new fuzing panel

would be:

  • unrealistic and non-historical at Cold War / 1980s servers like Alpenwolf or BlueFlag and singleplayer missions
  • at the same time completely outdated and also unrealistic and non-historical at 2000s JSOW/AMRAAM servers and singleplayer missions.

Are this few 1990s upgrades and ability to use by far the most boring weapon in it's arsenal - SLAM worth ruining realism and historical accuracy in nearly all scenarios in both SP and MP?

Probably everyone has their own answer - some people want to sacrifice more realism and historical accuracy and some would like to stay on more realistic and historical side.

 

Anyway there were hundreds of classic TRAM aircrafts and only a handful of SWIP.

 

 

I can see TRAM Intruder fit perfectly for Cold War and 1980s servers. Being honest in "modern" servers against 2005 versions of F-16, F/A-18, JF-17 with datalinks, AMRAAMS it would be not only not usable at all but also completely unrealistic, being phased out decade earlier.

 

With all the Cold War modules being built A-7E Crusader II, Mi-24P, MiG-23MLA, (i also heard soviet Cold War MiG-29A), Mirage F.1, F-8J Crusader, Bolkov 105, Sea Harrier, Falklands 1982 map and Forrestal aircraft carrier i can see Cold War servers being the most popular in a year or two and Intruder will be extremally fun to fly in this kind of enviroment.


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1 hour ago, bies said:

 

Probably because 1990s SWIP with new Integrated Missile Panel, new AN/ALR-67A(V) RWR, new warning lights and new fuzing panel

would be:

  • unrealistic and non-historical at Cold War / 1980s servers like Alpenwolf or BlueFlag and singleplayer missions
  • at the same time completely outdated and also unrealistic and non-historical at 2000s JSOW/AMRAAM servers and singleplayer missions.

Are this few 1990s upgrades and ability to use by far the most boring weapon in it's arsenal - SLAM worth ruining realism and historical accuracy in nearly all scenarios in both SP and MP?

Probably everyone has their own answer - some people want to sacrifice more realism and historical accuracy and some would like to stay on more realistic and historical side.

 

Anyway there were hundreds of classic TRAM aircrafts and only a handful of SWIP.

 

Oh! let me try this! Oh no, my 1995 AJS-37 Viggen is ruining my 1980s cold war setting! What shall I ever do?! Well, it is quite simple, don't use the new fancy weapons, turn off TERNAV, use the datacartridge or the outer wing pylons. Tada! I've turned my 1995 AJS to a 1980s AJ approximation. And that is what i'm gong for, a SWIP could fit more timeframes than a TRAM, yes, TRAM was the backbone for quite a while, but the differences between a TRAM and a SWIP are small enough that some simple omissions mean that you can use the same module for a wider era, even if it was outdated by 1990.

11 minutes ago, Berserk said:

 

I can see TRAM Intruder fit perfectly for Cold War and 1980s servers. Being honest in "modern" servers against 2005 versions of F-16, F/A-18, JF-17 with datalinks, AMRAAMS it would be not only not usable at all but also completely unrealistic, being phased out decade earlier.

 

With all the Cold War modules being built A-7E Crusader II, Mi-24P, MiG-23MLA, (i also heard soviet Cold War MiG-29A), Mirage F.1, F-8J Crusader, Bolkov 105, Sea Harrier, Falklands 1982 map and Forrestal aircraft carrier i can see Cold War servers being the most popular in a year or two and Intruder will be extremally fun to fly in this kind of enviroment.

 

Yes, it would be dominated against the modern planes that exists. So does the ~2017 Harrier we have, and the late A-10C, it is a hard era for anything made solely for groundpounding, so why force it to be used there? There is more than those settings, as you say with the cold war example. Look at my response the Bies to see how a SWIP could fit into that scenario too.

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4 minutes ago, Marsvinet said:

Look at my response the Bies to see how a SWIP could fit into that scenario too

 

It seems only Viggen has this problem.

 

All other modules from this period are pure Cold War and nobody is forced to /pretend/ - MiG-21bis, F-14A-94GR and -135GR, F-5E, C-101, UH-1H, Mirage, MiG-19, L-39.

 

Also all modules@Berserkmentioned:

Quote

A-7E Crusader II, Mi-24P, MiG-23MLA, (i also heard soviet Cold War MiG-29A), Mirage F.1, F-8J Crusader, Bolkov 105, Sea Harrier, Falklands 1982 map, Forrestal

- are pure Cold War and no one is forced to /pretend/.

 

Viggen may be the only one and that's why people ask how to make Cold War AJ-37 out of it.

 

 

 

I can only repeat: some people want to sacrifice more realism and historical accuracy and some would like to stay on more realistic and historical side.

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7 minutes ago, bies said:

 

It seems only Viggen has this problem.

 

All other modules from this period are pure Cold War and nobody is forced to /pretend/ - MiG-21bis, F-14A-94GR and -135GR, F-5E, C-101, UH-1H, Mirage, MiG-19, L-39.

 

Also all modules@Berserkmentioned:

- are pure Cold War and no one is forced to /pretend/.

 

Viggen may be the only one and that's why people ask how to make Cold War AJ-37 out of it.

 

 

 

I can only repeat: some people want to sacrifice more realism and historical accuracy and some would like to stay on more realistic and historical side.

I really don't like your "Some want more realism" generalisation. I VERY much want it to be properly realistic. But I also acknowledge that there are more eras in DCS than the 1980s cold war. This is why a version that can fit many eras come in. Because I can pull the same argument as you for why a non-TRAM intruder is the best, or a A version intruder, or no intruder at all, because neither fits in my 1953 Mig15 Vs Sabre matches. Because by your reasoning, a TRAM would not be allowed for early 70s matchups, like a MiG-21Bis Vs a F-5E. Can't have a TRAM there. Yes, 80s cold war is expanding, but that does not mean that is the only era that DCS modules need to be limited to. Maybe I really like the 1990s era (Which I do, where is my Day-Attack Harrier? A Night attack does not fit there!)

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15 minutes ago, Marsvinet said:

I really don't like your "Some want more realism" generalisation. I VERY much want it to be properly realistic. But I also acknowledge that there are more eras in DCS than the 1980s cold war. This is why a version that can fit many eras come in. Because I can pull the same argument as you for why a non-TRAM intruder is the best, or a A version intruder, or no intruder at all, because neither fits in my 1953 Mig15 Vs Sabre matches. Because by your reasoning, a TRAM would not be allowed for early 70s matchups, like a MiG-21Bis Vs a F-5E. Can't have a TRAM there. Yes, 80s cold war is expanding, but that does not mean that is the only era that DCS modules need to be limited to. Maybe I really like the 1990s era (Which I do, where is my Day-Attack Harrier? A Night attack does not fit there!)

^^

 

 

 

what everyone likes to forget:

 

DCS is a darn video game, so you gotta live with less realism

gameplay often comes before realism

 

and in this case it makes more sense to give us a WCSI or SWIP intruder, because they are virtually identical apart from software upgrades that allow the SWIP to use Walleye, maverick and late HARPOON missiles.

 

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13 minutes ago, Marsvinet said:

This is why a version that can fit many eras come in.

 

So you should prefer TRAM then.

 

Classic TRAM fit 1980 to 1997. It's 17 years.

SWIP fit 1991-1997. It's 6 years.

 

And TRAM was always majority of the Intruder fleet.

How many SWIP aircrafts ever served? 40 planes?

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