A-6 Intruder variants

[bies]

Hi,

i just saw you are announced A-6E Intruder to DCS. I know it's very early for the A-6 to discuss anything, but i saw there is no decision about specific variant yet.

 

For me i don't mind if SWIP standard will be also included, but please be sure to include classic TRAM or WCSI plane which represents big majority of the fleet and did all the fighting.

 

Classic TRAM/WCSI planes served for more more than 15 years and were used in actual real combat together with A-7E and F-14, 

• Multinational Force in Lebanon in 1983,
• Action in the Gulf of Sidra against Libyan navy in 1986, 
• Operation El Dorado Canyon attacking targets in Lybia in 1986, 
• Operation Praying Mantis against Iranian navy in 1988 - the largest US surface engagement since WWII, 
• all out war Operation Desert Storm in 1991

and they offer very unique, skill based gameplay with coordination of both crew members, low level penetration, different than other planes in DCS.

 

Contrary SWIP upgrade is from early 1990s, it was just a small number of planes converted, not the whole fleet and after some 3-4 years US Navy retired them anyway without firing single bullet in anger. They didn't see any combat, they wouldn't represent general fleet of this planes if modeled alone.

And all of this modern stand off weapon would somewhat deprive the plane it's real nature of low altitude penetrator and making it more similar to i.e. Hornet.

 

 

Thanks for the great news, i'm so glad you are staying commited to the DCS and modeling another legendary plane A-6!

Thanks for your work, praise the HEATBLUR!

Edited February 25, 2021 by bies

[Skysurfer]

Personally I think a TRAM jet will be more than fine - I dont know if there is any public/unclass documentation on SWIP. I know TRAM stuff can be found on ebay and those grea areas, generally. 

GP bombs, low level nav and LGB's later on were the bread and butter of the A-6.

Edited February 8, 2021 by Skysurfer

[OnionSpider13]

Is there a cosmetic difference between a TRAM and SWIP, both externally and in the cockpit?  Couldn't you fly a SWIP without the modern weapons and basically make it a TRAM?  Legit question, I don't know very much about the Intruder.

[Blaze1]

5 minutes ago, OnionSpider13 said:

Is there a cosmetic difference between a TRAM and SWIP, both externally and in the cockpit?  Couldn't you fly a SWIP without the modern weapons and basically make it a TRAM?  Legit question, I don't know very much about the Intruder.

The main internal differences off the top of my head are that the SWIP jets featured:

AN/ALR-67(V)

Different warning lights (pilot side)

Digital fuel gauge

Integrated Missile Panel

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

Honestly, I think the SWIP is ideal. It gives the Intruder access to Mavericks and that, alone, is worth it. Not to mention it gives it autonomy with SLAMs, HARMs, and Walleyes. However, IIRC, the SWIP upgrades only major hardware change was the AN/ASQ-155 getting a co-processor.

 

Edited February 10, 2021 by MiG21bisFishbedL

[kseremak]

A agree SWIP was just a curiosity, no combat history, very small amount of A-6E was even converted to SWIP and they were decomissioned literally after a few years.

Wings were badly used so they tried to repleced them with composite wings, byt they were stiffer and this made fuselage cracking instead. And among SWIP there were also different standards of equipement.

If i would have a choice i would like TRAM which was used in all 1980-1991 combat operations.

[Greekbull]

Honestly I hope and believe they will make the most modern variant of the A-6E that they can get good data on.  Two squadrons in Desert Storm had the SWIP upgrade...and it was in service for a number of years later until it was retired in 97.  Equipping it with the most modern features would also allow it to fit in with the F-14, F-18, and F-16 in more modern(Desert Storm era and forward) Scenarios....

[Iron_physik]

47 minutes ago, Greekbull said:

Honestly I hope and believe they will make the most modern variant of the A-6E that they can get good data on.  Two squadrons in Desert Storm had the SWIP upgrade...and it was in service for a number of years later until it was retired in 97.  Equipping it with the most modern features would also allow it to fit in with the F-14, F-18, and F-16 in more modern(Desert Storm era and forward) Scenarios....

that and the fact that A-6E SWIP also flew during the persian gulf campaign and over Bosnia.

the SWIP would be a great Fit for the PG map

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by Iron_physik

[CheckGear]

9 hours ago, kseremak said:

A agree SWIP was just a curiosity, no combat history, very small amount of A-6E was even converted to SWIP and they were decomissioned literally after a few years.

Wings were badly used so they tried to repleced them with composite wings, byt they were stiffer and this made fuselage cracking instead. And among SWIP there were also different standards of equipement.

If i would have a choice i would like TRAM which was used in all 1980-1991 combat operations.

SWIP flew no-fly zone enforcement over Iraq and Bosnia (as someone else already mentioned). Also, SWIP was able to employ the widest range of weaponry, particularly the Mavericks and SLAMs.

[Northstar98]

I think the TRAM/WCSI should be the go to, and should take first priority, then maybe the SWIP as a variant.

Edited February 16, 2021 by Northstar98

[CheckGear]

By the way, somebody said SWIP was in service for "only a few years."
 

The first SWIP Intruders entered operational service in 1989. So they saw more than a few years of service.

[uri_ba]

SWIP will be the better option for DCS. in the current MP arena, lacking any AA ability (no gun and no AA missiles) so having EVERY AG weapon option is preferable.

 

for era specific missions, I'll trust mission builders to limit loadout and availability.

[Iron_physik]

6 hours ago, uri_ba said:

lacking any AA ability (no gun and no AA missiles)

 

A-6 Does have acces to all Navy sidewinders:

 

early models where even rated to carry Mk.4 gunpods

 

[NRG-Vampire]

▲ STORE LOADING 
AGM-84 ? which variant ? A and D ?
...and the AGM-123 ? (what is a GBU-16 with booster), AGM-88, early AGM-65A/B ?

[Iron_physik]

1 hour ago, NRG-Vampire said:

▲ STORE LOADING 
AGM-84 ? which variant ? A and D ?
...and the AGM-123 ? (what is a GBU-16 with booster), AGM-88, early AGM-65A/B ?

thats the 1979 SAC chart

 

 

the A-6E TRAM / SWIP manual from 1994/95 lists these weapons:

 

 

[NRG-Vampire]

so there are AGM-88, 84E, 65E/F ...fine...TY

[Blaze1]

7 hours ago, Iron_physik said:

 

A-6 Does have acces to all Navy sidewinders:

 

early models where even rated to carry Mk.4 gunpods

 

The A-6E TRAM (mid to late 80's) has those gun pods catalogued as legitimate stores, so I wonder when they were removed?

[Kev2go]

On 2/9/2021 at 10:05 AM, kseremak said:

A agree SWIP was just a curiosity, no combat history, very small amount of A-6E was even converted to SWIP and they were decomissioned literally after a few years.

Wings were badly used so they tried to repleced them with composite wings, byt they were stiffer and this made fuselage cracking instead. And among SWIP there were also different standards of equipement.

If i would have a choice i would like TRAM which was used in all 1980-1991 combat operations.

 

why not both like we got F14A/B? Also as someone pointed out SWIP derivative did in fact see use in Gulf war and in Bosnian conflict.

 

A manual i saw in ebay at one point was Natops 1994/1995 publication called A6E TRAM/SWIP. So because SWIP didn't represent the majority, and the differences aren't drastic the manual covered both models of that time frame.

 

Given that we have late 1980s F14A, and F14B of roughly the mid 1990s, it would only make sense to aim for a comparable time frame intruder to compliment the tomcats.

Edited February 15, 2021 by Kev2go

[Iron_physik]

1 hour ago, Kev2go said:

 

why not both like we got F14A/B? Also as someone pointed out SWIP derivative did in fact see use in Gulf war and in Bosnian conflict.

 

A manual i saw in ebay at one point was Natops 1994/1995 publication called A6E TRAM/SWIP. So because SWIP didn't represent the majority, and the differences aren't drastic the manual covered both models of that time frame.

 

Given that we have late 1980s F14A, and F14B of roughly the mid 1990s, it would only make sense to aim for a comparable time frame intruder to compliment the tomcats.

 

 

pretty much

 

Major US Operations 1980-1995:

 

Lebanese civil war (1975 - 1990)    

Gulf war (1990-1991)

Bosnian war (1992-1995)

 

A-6E TRAM took part in all 3

A-6E SWIP took part in the last 2 of that list

 

 

when you guys want manuals feel free to visit the A-6 intruder discord server:

https://discord.gg/GeTuFjbB

we collect manuals and currently have all of them that can be found online (including the SWIP manual from 1995)

 

 

 

 

[Swordsman422]

I'm hoping for SWIP, but will settle for TRAM. I'm of the mindset that the devs should provide the most capable version that they have documentation for and it's up to the players to not use what systems they don't want.

[Skysurfer]

I'd personally be happy with a base TRAM variant. I imagine the SWIP variant with the extra digital interfaces would make it much more complex (SLAM-ER, HARM, HARPOON employment etc.). MK80's, cluster bombs and LGB's are the bread and butter of the A-6.

[Blaze1]

I was just about to post how if it's a TRAM, I'd like to see the AWG-21 variant, but then remembered they stopped shooting the Standard by the mid 80's, which we already covered in the other A-6 thread I think.

[Iron_physik]

8 hours ago, Skysurfer said:

I'd personally be happy with a base TRAM variant. I imagine the SWIP variant with the extra digital interfaces would make it much more complex (SLAM-ER, HARM, HARPOON employment etc.). MK80's, cluster bombs and LGB's are the bread and butter of the A-6.

cockpit layout wise the SWIP and TRAM are mostly identical

its pretty much just internal wiring that changed to accept Walleye, Maverick, SLAM and HARM

the only really difference are some smaller switches in the B/N station to select the new weapons and to view their feedback on the FLIR screen

most of it was a software upgrade Late TRAMs even had many of the features retrofitted that SWIP had:

 

 

 

 

 

 

this update actually makes the SWIP easier to use, because it is more optimzed.

 

 

 

P.S.
the SWIP also received CCIP, something the TRAM lacks

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by Iron_physik

[TLTeo]

9 minutes ago, Iron_physik said:

the SWIP also received CCIP, something the TRAM lacks

How would CCIP work with just a gunsight? Do you just get a pipper without the bomb fall line, pull up cues etc as with other modern jets? Or is it more like the Viggen where it's intended only for high drag level delivery, so you don't need as much symbology?

Edited February 16, 2021 by TLTeo

[Iron_physik]

Just now, TLTeo said:

How would CCIP work with just a gunsight? Do you just get a pipper without the bomb fall line, pull up cues etc as with other modern jets? Or is it more like the Viggen where it's intended only for high drag delivery?

the reticle in the sight of the A-6 can move to give the Pilot navigational info

on the SWIP its mode got improved to also work with CCIP (though looking through the manual it could be that im wron on it, its not quite clear when CCIP was added)