Plane fell out the sky. What did I do wrong?

[netizensmith]

Multiplayer mission, me in an AV-8B and a friend in a Hornet. All going well til about half and hour/40 minutes in when, at about 250 knots my plane's nose starts dipping, I start to pull back to stop it whilst giving more throttle at the same time but the dop continues until I'm pulling all the way back, then I role to the left, try to compensate but end up in a downward spiral until I hit the earth. I'm assuming I did something wrong. I'm very far from an expert in the Harrier. I have the track file but it's 98MB so I can't attach it. Is there some common n00b mistake I may have made?

 

Dropbox shared link for anyone who has the time and inclination to try and help!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/on064sznqj9gr6k/A Dish Served Cold-20210207-173710.trk?dl=0

Edited February 7, 2021 by netizensmith

[Draken35]

AOA of 26+ (watching it in accelerated time, so didn't catch the exam number)..

I'm still learning, but one of the first hard lessons was to learn to watch my AOA to avoid flying my plain into a flat spin...

 

From Chucks Guide:

 

 

The next skill to learn is how to recover from flat spins

 

[netizensmith]

Thanks so much. I took a look just now after what you said. My throttle was too low and I think I’d been trimming to keep my velocity vector level rather that using the throttle and not checking my aoa at all! I’ve spent more time learning weapons, takeoffs and landings. Need to spend some more time learning to just fly. Thanks again

[Draken35]

I'm in the same process... Right now on AAR and trying to make my  VL on the Tarawa "prettier" . One bad habit that I'm trying to break is to expend too much time zoomed in the MFD's .

I trying to look at them fo no more than 10 to 15 seconds and then check the HUD.

 

Also, I've found Tacview very useful to review my sorties. Ended up buying the standard version after the trial.

[Recluse]

19 minutes ago, Draken35 said:

I'm in the same process... Right now on AAR and trying to make my  VL on the Tarawa "prettier" . One bad habit that I'm trying to break is to expend too much time zoomed in the MFD's .

I trying to look at them fo no more than 10 to 15 seconds and then check the HUD.

 

Also, I've found Tacview very useful to review my sorties. Ended up buying the standard version after the trial.

 

LOL.. Make VL prettier? I would settle for not crashing into the ocean 

[Draken35]

LOL... Yeah, that was my prior goal!  Now, assuming I don't bounce or slip out of the deck, I can put the Harrier on the Tarawa every time...Most of them, in one piece and able to take off again.

 

After a few VL attempts in the carrier that failed miserably, I came across with the Shipborne Rolling Vertical Landing concept and started doing it. It is very similar to a short landing, just the "runway" is shorter, slimmer and its moving  ... Once I was a able to recover successfully a few times, I reduced my approach speed ...  Eventually, I was hovering above the deck.

 

 

I've setup a few quick, short range missions where I take off from the Tarawa, go to a nearby shooting range, do a quick (1 or 2 passes) weapons work and then come back to the carrier, rearm, refuel and repeat. Sometimes, I just skip the trip to the range and just do take off and landings.

 

Also, I setup another mission, on flat terrain, with one FARP and just practice VTO, leave the nozzles at 82 and do a circuit, then come back to the FARP and VL.

 

AAR on the other hand eludes me... At least I haven't crashed into the tanker....yet.... 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2021 by Draken35
typo

[Recluse]

Yes! I watched this video when it came out and thought it might be my cure for getting aboard the Tarawa. Need more practice. I like your idea of circuits at 82 degrees. Getting the nose under control at "hover" position is where I fail rather spectacularly.  Practice......

[Draken35]

and more Practice with a big dose of Patience...

 

That slow speed maneuvering, while watching and moving (in different directions) the witch hat and velocity vectors is hard! PIO is a thing!

 

I had to break the habit of trying to force the landing. Now if the approach doesn't feel right , I just wave off and reset. 

 

@netizensmithPARE! This link helped me a lot with spin recovery:

https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/maneuvers/the-four-steps-of-spin-recovery-explained-pare-fly-it-safely/

 

 

Edited February 8, 2021 by Draken35

[Wisky]

if your doing a circuit dont do that at 82°

this is not a rotary, dont try to create forward speed by pointing the nose down

 

what you want to do is always hold the witches hat level to the horizon and if you want to go forward nozzles go <82°

and if you want to reduce speed nozzles go >82°

 

then if your on the carrier its just trying to get at the same speed of the ship (that will be something at 80 - 79°)

[Draken35]

hhmm Keeping the nozzles at around 80 to match the speed of the carrier didn't occur to me, but it does seems the right thing to do...

[Dragon1-1]

I actually became much better at carrier landings when I started thinking about it as formation flying. You're not actually hovering in place, but trying to fly formation with the carrier, much like when you AAR, only with the nozzles pointing down. The way you work your stick and throttle is very similar in both cases. 

[Draken35]

@netizensmithsorry for the thread hijack but it does seems that we are having a good conversation.

 

I noticed the similarities between AAR and flying in formation with the carrier too.

[netizensmith]

1 minute ago, Draken35 said:

@netizensmithsorry for the thread hijack but it does seems that we are having a good conversation.

 

I noticed the similarities between AAR and flying in formation with the carrier too.

No problem! I follow with interest. I'm actually able to VTOL on a carrier or Tarawa quite well but not because I know the right way to do it, just I've tried enough times that I kinda manage to do it ok now. Learning others tips and advice is valuable.

[Hodo]

2 hours ago, Draken35 said:

hhmm Keeping the nozzles at around 80 to match the speed of the carrier didn't occur to me, but it does seems the right thing to do...

Yeah 79-82 depending on speed of the carrier and the weather.  

 

I have landed the Harrier with a tailwind and I had to set it to 84 deg to stay with the carrier... That was fun.

[Draken35]

9 hours ago, Wisky said:

if your doing a circuit dont do that at 82°

this is not a rotary, dont try to create forward speed by pointing the nose down

 

what you want to do is always hold the witches hat level to the horizon and if you want to go forward nozzles go <82°

and if you want to reduce speed nozzles go >82°

 

then if your on the carrier its just trying to get at the same speed of the ship (that will be something at 80 - 79°)

 

Well, thank you! That was the piece my puzzle was missing.  Trimming & stick (trim seems to react too slowly sometimes) to keep the witches hat at the horizon and nozzle angle for speed. It's amazing the difference than 1° does!

[JorgV]

I think there is also some personal preference involved? I followed this a while ago and it worked out pretty nice for me. Not as stable as the video, but definitely very controllable: 

 

 

Still can't do the sideways landing on the tarawa btw 

[Draken35]

4 hours ago, JorgV said:

Still can't do the sideways landing on the tarawa btw 

"Tiny" amount of rudder towards the carrier, and keeps wings level. Forward speed will take care of the rest. At least that's how I'm doing it.

[JorgV]

4 hours ago, Draken35 said:

"Tiny" amount of rudder towards the carrier, and keeps wings level. Forward speed will take care of the rest. At least that's how I'm doing it.

Ah, didn't think about the forward speed component and never tried using -only-rudder. Makes sense, gonna hop in the seat tonight!  

[netizensmith]

5 hours ago, Draken35 said:

"Tiny" amount of rudder towards the carrier, and keeps wings level. Forward speed will take care of the rest. At least that's how I'm doing it.

Good grief that makes so much sense now I think about it!

[Recluse]

So help me out here..  I tried to replicate the HOVER practice shown in the video above. Had a heck of a hard time keeping the witch's hat where it needed to be for stability. Are people using Pitch control (stick) or trim to accomplish this? Maybe I need a bit LESS stick sensitivity to control it better, and, of course a ton more practice. I am not VL on the Tarawa any time soon if I can't dance around the taxiway

Edited February 11, 2021 by Recluse

[Fri13]

8 minutes ago, Recluse said:

So help me out here..  I tried to replicate the HOVER practice shown in the video above. Had a heck of a hard time keeping the witch's hat where it needed to be for stability. Are people using Pitch control (stick) or trim to accomplish this? Maybe I need a bit LESS stick sensitivity to control it better, and, of course a ton more practice. I am not VL on the Tarawa any time soon if I can't dance around the taxiway

 

I recommended first just to start getting a feeling to controls, start on ground and start slow take-off up to 50-100

meters. First place the aircraft in mission editor near trees or buildings so you get a great visual environment around you, as you need to be looking outside instead HUD.

First you learn to just make steady take-off.  And then to do approaches at slow speed at 50-100 feet. And later control vertical speed with throttle when you get the horizontal positioning in control.

In time it becomes easy and natural. IMHO trying to complete more complex landings without being comfortable with controls will be challenge. Why first getting touch to them will help to focus more important things

.

 

 

 

 

 

[Recluse]

That's what I am trying to do. Basically take off, hover about 50-100 ft in a stable situation and then touch down. Then back up to a Hover, pitch forward, return to stable hover. etc..

 

Problem is STEP 1. Finding it very hard to keep STABLE without pitching forward/backward..and then PIO starts. Practice for sure is needed, but trying to get my control sensitivity to a point where it is sensitive enough to make SMALL corrections, but not SO sensitive that small movements lead to larger corrections. IN GENERAL I find the Harrier to be a pain to keep trimmed and controlled even in REGULAR flight regimes, and this is exacerbated at slow speed/hover flight envelopes.

 

I just finished this book:

 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DPPTM2S/

 

I had to laugh at this passage: (well laughing at myself...)

 

Quote

When I tell people I flew the Harrier II, I inevitably get asked the question “Was it hard to fly?” V/STOL is different, but in a good way. The avionics in the jet were excellent. Even back in 1990, the software was eye watering. If properly managed, the INS kept a pretty accurate position. It could load up to 26 waypoints, which made navigation a piece of cake. The HUD was awesome for someone coming straight out of a TA-4J in training. In flight, the AV-8B was as solid as a rock, the thick wings keeping it stable at low altitudes and in a dive.

 

Edited February 11, 2021 by Recluse

[Draken35]

Use nozzles position & throttle for speed... keep the witches hat on the horizon ... During transition from wing borne flight to hover I use trim but once hovering I use the stick, since trim seems to have no effect while hovering... I assume (might be totally wrong since I haven't researched it, nor I am a SME on this, mind you) that the reaction control system does not respond to trim inputs but only to the rudder pedals and stick...

 

My way to develop the muscle memory necessary to beat the PIO was the starting with a moving (straight line) Tarawa at 27 knots (real life has a max of 24 knots but I did not know at the time...) and do a rolling vertical landing (link posted above) , when it became easy, I reduce  the speed of the Tarawa, which forces a reduce of the approach speed... Eventually I was able to fly in formation with the Tarawa (see tip about using nozzles to match speed) ... After that, most of that low speed PIO was gone.

[Draken35]

On 2/9/2021 at 7:11 AM, Draken35 said:

"Tiny" amount of rudder towards the carrier, and keeps wings level. Forward speed will take care of the rest. At least that's how I'm doing it.

Yes quoting myself to eat my words ... Maybe

 

@netizensmith , @JorgV

 

Looks like we need to bank instead of using rudder ... 

Found this mission , here, in user files. 

 

I looked in the Natops Manual and in "00-80T-111 - VSTOL Shipboard and LSO Manual" and in the VMAT-203 Syllabus and couldn't find a reference on how to do it... Most likely is uder a different subject ... I'll keep looking.

 

[vstolmech513]

On 2/19/2021 at 7:39 AM, Draken35 said:

I looked in the Natops Manual and in "00-80T-111 - VSTOL Shipboard and LSO Manual" and in the VMAT-203 Syllabus and couldn't find a reference on how to do it... Most likely is uder a different subject ... I'll keep looking.

 

Chapter 10 should be what you are looking for in the 80T-111, although it doesn't give in-depth procedures, it does show diagrams.