What's with the missiles????

[Wolfman289]

What is the deal with the missiles now? Ever since the last couple of updates, I cannot hit anything with them. I just flew a single player mission and fired 4 Phoenix's at four different F14's and not one hit and they just flew straight by. The targets where flying straight towards me the entire time... I then used two Sparrows and two Sidewinders. Both Sparrows did not track. One sidewinder hit a target and the other missed.

 

I used to have about a a 9/10 chance to hit a target with a missile and now have to always rely on guns to take care of everything. It's very frustrating. Anyone else having this issue? Or has something changed that I'm now not doing something right? I find it really odd I used to not have a problem and now I do.

 

Thanks!

[bonesvf103]

You know, I noticed this too.  AFter the update before last, they worked really well.

 

Now, recently, not so.  I shot 6 Phoenixes on targets that were no more than 40 miles away, all locked with TWS-A and had gone pitbull and only 2-4 hit.

 

v6,

boNes

[Blinde]

They seem to miss a lot more nowadays. I don't know was it the last patch or some of the recent ones since I haven't flew the F-14 so much for some time.

6 months ago both Sparrows and Phoenixs had bigger hit rate.

[Badger1-1]

I agree, online you have to get real close ( 30nm less) so you have a slight chance, out of 10 1-2 hits. Used to be a lot better

[bonesvf103]

OK I ran another test.  I had solid TWS-A locks on the 6 targets, they were all falshing that I was in launch zone.  I waited until they were around 36 miles before firing.  All Phoenixes went pitbull, but only 1 hit.  Compare this to when I fired at them at 70 miles and got 4 hits.  I watched 5 Phoenixes fly right by, one of them flew right by a bandit without even maneuvering, the other ones went into the ground.

 

Something doesn't seem right.

 

v6,

boNes

[Oceandar]

There could be few possibilities without providing a track. The missile could be just got notched and went after the chaffs. The AI with excellent skill known to be good at this.
I could be wrong, I think the 54 uses same seeker API as 120 which ED updated a month ago AFAIK. It now has 15 degree cone search. If you can notch and break its lock then you can evade the missile. I've succesfully done this both in SP and MP against 54.
It could also be the ECM bug (if its not already fixed, I have not tested it tbh) which any jet with blinking ECM could cause the ARH missile goes dumb.

[Wolfman289]

The missiles are missing even when the target is flying straight towards me. That would not count as notching, right? I've also watched for chaff and there was not any, so I'm not sure what the deal is. I don't understand everything with all of this so it's possible I am screwing something up, it's just odd that I used to not have much trouble until recently.

 

bonesfv103, that is the same behavior that I've noticed too.

[Skysurfer]

Welcome to DCS World. Enjoy yor stay.

[captain_dalan]

Active missiles seam to be completely borked for a while now. Less then a month ago, i had a very controlled engagement on the PG Red Flag server. Me in an F-14A with 4x2x2x2 against a Hornet and an F-14B with a 4x2x2. Ended up merging with the guys as we managed to dodge-evade each and every shot we made. Ended up using Winders. I got the F-14 and his Hornet buddy got me. Now true, this is MP and player skill may also be involved, but am NOT that good of a stick. Besides i fired all my Buffalos inside 35NM (some even closer) and didn't get RWR sooner, i expect the bad guys did as well, so the hit ratio should definitely be better then 12-0. Even in SP the results are mixed. But i haven't really run extensive tests against passive targets to really reach a decisive conclusion.

Anyways, ED controls the missiles now, so i guess any gripes should posted in the BUG section of the weapons thread?

[Bremspropeller]

FWIW:

 

I managed to down 3 out of 4 AI MiG-15s yesterday, which should neither have ECM, nor a RWR (unless the AI knows of inbound missiles anyway).

Happened on a PvE server, firing four 54Cs in TWS.

 

Might be supporting the connection to ECM and/ or optimal AI notching.

[bonesvf103]

10 hours ago, Oceandar said:

There could be few possibilities without providing a track. The missile could be just got notched and went after the chaffs. The AI with excellent skill known to be good at this.
I could be wrong, I think the 54 uses same seeker API as 120 which ED updated a month ago AFAIK. It now has 15 degree cone search. If you can notch and break its lock then you can evade the missile. I've succesfully done this both in SP and MP against 54.
It could also be the ECM bug (if its not already fixed, I have not tested it tbh) which any jet with blinking ECM could cause the ARH missile goes dumb.

 

If you are referring to my report, I have a track, a TacView, and video.  Tracks are larger than 5 MB so I'm not sure how to get around the 5 MB limit here on the DCS forum.

 

Also of note is that I was firing against F-4 Phantom II "drones" so I don't know if the mission writer made them smart enough to use CM or not.  I also designated all of the TWS-A contacts as hostile so that the WCS will definitely adjust the TWS to properly focus on them and keep the target "weight" centroid for best radar coverage.  Target size was also set to "normal".

 

Test 1 at 70 miles

 

Test 2 at 36 miles.  Excuse the crash, I was busy monitoring the Phoenix missiles to pay attention to threats. See video description for time codes.

 

v6,

boNes

[bonesvf103]

Looking at a TacView from a previous test, looks like the surviving F-4s beamed the missile initially then came back on course.  The beam may have broken lock.  But then the bandits turned to face the Phoenixes afterwards andsince the Phoenixes were pitbull, you would think they would have acquired or re-acquired the bandits, but the bandits sailed right past them., parallel to their course.

 

v6,

boNes

[Skysurfer]

1 hour ago, bonesvf103 said:

Looking at a TacView from a previous test, looks like the surviving F-4s beamed the missile initially then came back on course.  The beam may have broken lock.  But then the bandits turned to face the Phoenixes afterwards andsince the Phoenixes were pitbull, you would think they would have acquired or re-acquired the bandits, but the bandits sailed right past them., parallel to their course.

 

v6,

boNes

 

I think the current issue with them is that they either never go active or dont act as active missiles once the lock is broken. I.E. the WCS estimated track isn't really a thing.

[Ikaros]

Two updates ago I had over 20 Phoenix missiles miss in 9 hours of multiplayer gameplay spread out over 3 days, with only one Phoenix missile actually hitting a target.

[Xeno426]

8 hours ago, bonesvf103 said:

Tracks are larger than 5 MB so I'm not sure how to get around the 5 MB limit here on the DCS forum.

Upload them to Mega, Mediafire, DropBox, or any number of other websites.

[captain_dalan]

16 hours ago, Skysurfer said:

 

I think the current issue with them is that they either never go active or dont act as active missiles once the lock is broken. I.E. the WCS estimated track isn't really a thing.

I think you may be on to something here. I've noticed that at least in some cases, the missiles don't go active (or at least the TTI doesn't start blinking) on "phantom" tracks.

[Reccelow]

Agreed.  AIM54 (all variants) currently almost useless.  The only method I've found still working reliably is using the ACM mode in "Active off the Rail"....range about 5nm....

 

Actually gone back to the Sparrow as primary BVR weapon now!

[QuiGon]

I've had some very successful engagements yesterday using the AIM-54A Mk.47 on the Buddyspike BlueFlag server. I managed to kill an enemy Hornet with a Phoenix launched at a distanced of 50nm.

Edited February 5, 2021 by QuiGon

[Kula66]

I'm still getting kills fairly regularly launching at 70 miles ... you just have to keep a TWS track until active.  At that range if the target manoeuvres much, then its probably going to miss, but that's expected.

[PicklePicklePickle]

I've had luck with BVR phoenixes but as others said I keep the TWS track which for me means slowing down while they track so i don't have to go defensive and track. I also like to launch for high altitude, not sure if that helps. I also have luck launching them pitbull in boresight, however I do believe the point about them not tracking well pitbull near target after WCS is correct. I have seen AIM54's miss a target when they are clearly within FOV and the missile should be pitbull.

 

The sparrows work for me IF: I am not in ACM mode, AND i am above the target withing range. If i turn on ACM mode and hold the bandit in the relevant region of the hud for the radar ping, they just fly straight. I always have to disable ACM mode to use sparrows.

 

Sidewinders work great for me, but they are easily defeated by enemy flares which is as should be I think.

Edited February 6, 2021 by PicklePicklePickle

[Jayhawk1971]

My totally unscientific experience has been that AIM-54 seem to have a much higher PK at long range (around 60NM) than at closer ranges (say, around 40 to 20). Also, I seem to be more successful with AIM-7MH than with the M. 

[Biggus]

I had four hits for four shots with -54Cs tonight in TWS.  So long as you keep tracking them til they go active, they work fine for me.  Roughly 70% of my shots connect, even down to PLM locks on hot targets down to 3nm.  Generally for TWS shots, if you're going to maneuver before the missiles go active, you need to be very gentle.

[Callsign JoNay]

20 hours ago, Biggus said:

I had four hits for four shots with -54Cs tonight in TWS.  So long as you keep tracking them til they go active, they work fine for me.  Roughly 70% of my shots connect, even down to PLM locks on hot targets down to 3nm.  Generally for TWS shots, if you're going to maneuver before the missiles go active, you need to be very gentle.

 

Against humans or the AI? I can understand seeing higher PK rates verses nooby human pilots who are distracted by something and aren't taking the 14 in their RWR seriously, but I agree with the others above. Against the AI, the AIM-54 is practically useless.

 

Very susceptible to CMs. Even without CMs the missiles often make violent maneuvers that shed a whole mach in less than a second. And now after the most recent patch and 3rd scenario has popped up where the missiles just go stupid. I've only been flying the Tomcat for about 3 or 4 months, but I've tested at least 300 missiles against AI and I'd say my PK is less than 10%.

[Biggus]

5 minutes ago, Callsign JoNay said:

 

Against humans or the AI? I can understand seeing higher PK rates verses nooby human pilots who are distracted by something and aren't taking the 14 in their RWR seriously, but I agree with the others above. Against the AI, the AIM-54 is practically useless.

 

Very susceptible to CMs. Even without CMs the missiles often make violent maneuvers that shed a whole mach in less than a second. And now after the most recent patch and 3rd scenario has popped up where the missiles just go stupid. I've only been flying the Tomcat for about 3 or 4 months, but I've tested at least 300 missiles against AI and I'd say my PK is less than 10%.

I'm talking about AI.

[Shimmergloom667]

1 hour ago, Callsign JoNay said:

 

Against humans or the AI? I can understand seeing higher PK rates verses nooby human pilots who are distracted by something and aren't taking the 14 in their RWR seriously, but I agree with the others above. Against the AI, the AIM-54 is practically useless.

 

Very susceptible to CMs. Even without CMs the missiles often make violent maneuvers that shed a whole mach in less than a second. And now after the most recent patch and 3rd scenario has popped up where the missiles just go stupid. I've only been flying the Tomcat for about 3 or 4 months, but I've tested at least 300 missiles against AI and I'd say my PK is less than 10%.

 

My pilot and me engaged 4 AI with AIM-54 at 50nm on Friday, taking out all of them (2 SU-24, 2 MiG-29) - afterwards 1 out of 2 Sparrows connected, and then 1 out of 2 Sidewinders. Same deal in a later flight. Can't really say something changed for us.