PitBulling Correction.. MadDogging Active Missiles

[Ice]

As some of us are aware it is possible to "Maddog" (Firing without a lock) Active missiles such as AIM120's and R77's.

 

This is starting to make the game too easy to get kills. The 169th have been aware of this for some time now. It only seemed fair to let others know of just how easy it is to get kills with active missiles. (and boring)

 

Having done some testing the Field of view of the R77 and the AIM120 seems to be way overmodelled. It will pick up a target at almost 90 degrees from the direction it was fired. You wont get a warning on TEWS until about 5-10km.

Hopefully for the sake of gameplay this issue will be adressed in the following addon or patches.

 

None of the shots were aimed towards the targets. There is nothing wrong with Maddogging if you know where the enemy is but this blind firing is not correct. If the aircraft is not in a cone of 10 degrees at the most then the missiles should not track. at least that's how it was in Janes F18

 

Example 1:

Firing R77 From 30Km (15 Miles) Mig29 at 8000 Meters. F15 (Target) at 1000 Meters

Click Here to Download

 

Example 2:

Firing AIM120 From 30Km (15 Miles) F15 at 8000 Meters. Mig29 (Target) at 1000 Meters

Click Here to Download

 

Example 3:

now this one is a doozy, Mig29s at 8000 Meters almost directly above the F15 (Target). the F15 is below right at 1000 Meters

Click Here to Download

[D-Scythe]

The proper term is actually "Maddog" ;)

 

Pilots actually call out "Pitbull" when their active radar homers go active, but in the LOMAC community, it has become the popular replacement for mad-dog. And yeah, the issue of missile gimbal limits have been raised, and is something to look into.

[169th_Jaws]

The proper term is actually "Maddog" ;)

 

Pilots actually call out "Pitbull" when their active radar homers go active, but in the LOMAC community, it has become the popular replacement for mad-dog. And yeah, the issue of missile gimbal limits have been raised, and is something to look into.

 

Ok, now I'm confused. This is a pretty hot debate this one, Maddog and Pitbull. I originally thought it was Pitbull, then did some reading and discovered it was Maddog, only to do some more reading and talk to some people concluding it was in fact Pitbull. Now you're saying Maddog, Ice is saying Pitbull, the world's gone.... mad. Can anyone provide some hard proof on one or the other?

 

 

As for the firing unlocked missiles, here's my reply from our 169th forums on this same topic:

 

Hmmm good point. I'm not currently able to view the available tracks as I'm on my parents crappy modem but I agree that pitbulling is a pretty cheap way to score kills if you have no idea where the target even is. TWS is my favourite option with the AIM-120.

 

However, to my knowledge the AMRAAM is supposed to fly in an S pattern if it can't detect a target and continue to do so until it picks something up or runs out of energy. So even if the target is 90 degrees from the missile's radar's field of view it will eventually be spotted if in range (whether it hits is a matter of early detection). Don't know about the 77 though. Can someone correct me on this one?

 

 

Good topic Ice. :wink:

[GGTharos]

The 120 doesn't do S-turns.

 

You say 'Maddog' when you launch the AMRAAM without initial guidance (ie visual) and pitbull when it goes active with guidance.

 

'Pitbulling' is a cheap way to get kills when you're DEAD. That's it. Pitbulling in response to a missile contrail before breaking etc. is perfectly acceptable.

 

120's and 77's won't hit anything they can't see, so random shooting of them isn't going to help you that much, typically (though you COULD get lucky)

[169th_Jaws]

The 120 doesn't do S-turns.

 

I'm sure I read this somewhere non-dodgy. Are you sure? Proof?

 

 

You say 'Maddog' when you launch the AMRAAM without initial guidance (ie visual) and pitbull when it goes active with guidance.

 

Hmmm same again as I'm sure I read this somewhere non-dodgy. Are you sure? Proof? (Oh and F4 is not proof for those of you who want to step in. :wink: ) Like I've already stated GGTharos, this is hotly debated but no one has any hard evidence. I'd like to see some from someone, anyone, to settle it.

[GGTharos]

If you want 'evidence' then I suggest you ask a real fighter pilot. That's about all I can tell you ;)

[ARM505]

PITBULL 1. Informative AIM-120 is at MPRF active range.

2. AIM-54 at active range.

 

I don't really know what that means though!

 

Edit: Obviously I can speculate that MPRF means medium pulse rep freq, ie that AMRAAM has multiple freq modes for initial search when radar fires up. Phoenix maybe just goes active, with simple fixed PRF (makes sense, older missile). But I don't know for sure, not having worked with those missiles!

[169th_DedCat]

Here's another one for ya...

 

CHEAPSHOT:

1. (USAF) Active missile supported to HPRF active range but not MPRF.

2. (USN) Active missile not supported to active range.

 

I'd like to petition another brevity...

 

SPAMSHOT:

1. (LOMAC) Informative. Every active missile at any PRF active range.

[D-Scythe]

According to the unclassified USAF comms manual, here are the definitions:

 

MADDOG - Visual AIM-120 launch

PITBULL - Informative call that the AIM-120 is at MPRF active range (as arm505 said)

 

These definitions are open to interpretation, but, from my understanding (so my interpretation), Maddog clearly means a no-radar launch of the AIM-120, as in the 'Visual' mode (as implemented in Lock On), or some random AMRAAM shot into the sky without lock after visual tally of the target by the pilot (the context from which we were talking about).

 

Pitbull to me means that the AIM-120 is within the acquisition range - so we can either cut the wires and either engage another target or get the hell out of dodge. The MPRF part to me means the range at which the AIM-120 should've acquired its target - the AIM-120 has both HPRF and MPRF modes, and since we know that HPRF has a higher detection range than MPRF, MPRF is the minimum range at which the AIM-120 should've acquired its target.

 

Judging from this, it is clearly meant that pilots say Pitbull when their AIM-120s go active after providing mid-course guidance in a long range BVR joust, while they say Maddog to warn other pilots that they have just shot an AIM-120 without lock, thus anything within its range is in danger of being tracked and killed.

 

This is my way of seeing things ;)

 

Anyway, GGtharos, IIRC, the AIM-120 does have some type of search pattern to seek out and destroy aircraft if launched on its own, although I'm not sure if it was an S-pattern.

[GGTharos]

AFAIK it's just the antenna swinging on the gimbals - any sort of turning would obviously cause you more problems than it's probably worth. But at this point I'm guessing.

[Vati]

SPAMSHOT :shock:

169th_DedCat, LOL :lol:... you b'stard! Now come here and clean my monitor... :lol:

[Ice]

120's and 77's won't hit anything they can't see, so random shooting of them isn't going to help you that much, typically (though you COULD get lucky)

 

The tracks I uploaded demonstrate the missiles aquiring targets from almost 90 degrees. That means they see almost 180 degrees FOV Left / Right, Up / Down. not a lot of luck required it would seem.

[GGTharos]

I'm not disputing this - but I imagine (and tell me if I'm wrong, too bus to check atm) the target needs to be fairly close ... in any case, we know that some sensor characteristics of the missiles aren't quite right - better missile physics in the successor say the devs. :D

[D-Scythe]

Well, if its any consolation, I know that maddogged AIM-120s do not acquire anything past 20 nm, even if it still has more than sufficient kinetic energy to complete the intercept (you can test it with FBP). Seems like a strange bug to me - hope its looked at by the devs.

[169th_DedCat]

I know that maddogged AIM-120s do not acquire anything past 20 nm

 

I doubt the AMMRAM has a powerful enough radar to detect anything at that range.

[D-Scythe]

I doubt the AMMRAM has a powerful enough radar to detect anything at that range.

 

It would if it flew there ;)

 

I meant 20 nm from the launch point.

[Guest Pacman]

Well, the answer has been stated before in this thread, but since somebody wanted an answer from a RL pilot you can go here.

 

http://fighterops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2144

 

Best regards,

 

Dirk

[Skarp]

I'm sure ed really looked into this before even adding the aim-120 to the game. so I'm pretty sure the aim-120 acts as it's soposed to ;). also I'm sure they had real f-15 pilots to comment on it during the development of this sim. so I think this thread isn't really needed.

[GGTharos]

No, the 120 doesn't act like it's supposd to ;)

 

None of the missiles do if you look at the details - they're mostly adequate for our needs though.

[169th_DedCat]

also I'm sure they had real f-15 pilots to comment on it during the development of this sim. so I think this thread isn't really needed.

 

When asking a real Eagle driver how their AMMRAMs work you're most likely to get a smirk and a smart ass response like "they work very well, thank you". The public isn't privy to a lot of the real detailed information behind modern weapon systems.

 

What simmers experience is a developer's best guess of weapons systems given the limited information that is available to them, that combined with the dynamics of the game code itself provide for very limited realism in true missile behaviour. Missile behaviour in general in LOMAC 1.02 is pretty scripted and predictable. It is not nearly as realistic as you blindly seem to take it to be. It could stand to be better (we'll see how 1.1 turns out), but it isn't awful either.

[GGTharos]

Missile behavious in real life is pretty scripted and predictable as well - that's why it's a secret, eheh ;)

 

I think I MAY have a research paper somewhere around ehre about the effect of chaff on missile guidance ... I'll see if I can find it. It's not classified so if you guys at ED are interested, I could send it over.

 

There's also an interesting paper on contrails - the altitude of contrails varies by engine type, power setting *and* altitude *and* weather, which was pretty interesting to me.

 

I also have papers on NCTR radar and missile with lattice wings research and so on ... I just looked at all those papers and while they're interesting, adnd indeed they do deal with simulating aerodynamical problems in many cases, perahsp given the physics engine used for missiles at this point they are not really worth studying until a more advanced physics engine is applied to these objects.

[D-Scythe]

LO-MAC's AMRAAM should still pull more Gs :lol:

 

j/k

[169th_Jaws]

Well, the answer has been stated before in this thread, but since somebody wanted an answer from a RL pilot you can go here.

 

http://fighterops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2144

 

Best regards,

 

Dirk

 

Outstanding! Thanks for that bud. Settled. :)

[169th_Snowcat]

Well, the answer has been stated before in this thread, but since somebody wanted an answer from a RL pilot you can go here.

 

http://fighterops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2144

 

Best regards,

 

Dirk

 

Outstanding! Thanks for that bud. Settled. :)

 

That sounds pretty conclusive to me subject closed. :wink:

[Ice]

I'm guessing there are many new to forums who havent seen these tracks so I'll give it a good ol bump