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Our W.I.P. Viper Too Fast?


wilbur81

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Just now, Katj said:


 


Yes, but as I said, that doesn't prevent the Hornet from _potentially_ having a faster turn rate at a lower speed.

 

If it could reach a higher G than the F-16 at the same speed, you're correct.  Or if the F-16 is at a much higher speed at 9Gs.  

 

But the broad statement that an F/A-18 outrates an F-16 that I originally addressed is incorrect.  I used the formula to demonstrate why, generally speaking.

 

A caveat to that would be a Swiss Hornet which can also pull 9Gs with big motors, but here, we're talking about the variant available in DCS.  

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16 hours ago, Mover said:

 

If it could reach a higher G than the F-16 at the same speed, you're correct.  Or if the F-16 is at a much higher speed at 9Gs.  

 

But the broad statement that an F/A-18 outrates an F-16 that I originally addressed is incorrect.  I used the formula to demonstrate why, generally speaking.

 

A caveat to that would be a Swiss Hornet which can also pull 9Gs with big motors, but here, we're talking about the variant available in DCS.  

So I guess this is confirmed? The F-16 should outrate the F/A-18? 

 

Unfortunately, with the current WIP FM in DCS, the F/A-18 outrates the F-16. I wish ED could fix this when both modules come out of EA. 

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Unfortunately, the current situation in the DCS is such that the F-16 flying brick has no chance in dogfight with fighters such as the F-18 or JF-17. No matter who sits in the F-16 cockpit, the fight ends badly for him very quickly. We have already tested a lot, we have conducted many types of combat. The effect is the same. In the F-18 you can drink coffee in peace and relax in the fight against the F-16. The F-16 pilot is doing his best to get everything out of his FSSB, the tired hand wants to fall off and after the first lap you will see the F-18 on yours sixth getting ready to shoot. The only thing that can be done while fighting the F-16 is not to turn after the merge, but use full thrust and run away.


Edited by Versor
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13 minutes ago, Versor said:

Unfortunately, the current situation in the DCS is such that the F-16 flying brick has no chance in dogfight with fighters such as the F-18 or JF-17. No matter who sits in the F-16 cockpit, the fight ends badly for him very quickly. We have already tested a lot, we have conducted many types of combat. The effect is the same. In the F-18 you can drink coffee in peace and relax in the fight against the F-16. The F-16 pilot is doing his best to get everything out of his FSSB, the tired hand wants to fall off and after the first lap you will see the F-18 on yours sixth getting ready to shoot. The only thing that can be done while fighting the F-16 is not to turn after the merge, but use full thrust and run away.

 

Exactly. 

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Unfortunately, the F-16 flight model seems to be cool only until you try to fight another fighter in classic dogfiht. The fighter, which should have a lot to say here, has no chance against any module. He loses to F18, JF17, F14, M2000 - different fighting methods and different pilots were also tested. Pilot A selects F18 pilot B F16. Fights on! Pilot A wins every time. Changing places - suddenly pilot A loses every time. And so with different pilots and different modules - the loser is always the F-16 ... I look to every next update with the hope that the F-16 will eventually become a purebred fighter - as I knew it before I tried it in DCS. I realize it's still WIP and the flight model is not finished - but the waiting is so painful...

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56 minutes ago, 13WELT_JankeS said:

Unfortunately, the F-16 flight model seems to be cool only until you try to fight another fighter in classic dogfiht. The fighter, which should have a lot to say here, has no chance against any module. He loses to F18, JF17, F14, M2000 - different fighting methods and different pilots were also tested. Pilot A selects F18 pilot B F16. Fights on! Pilot A wins every time. Changing places - suddenly pilot A loses every time. And so with different pilots and different modules - the loser is always the F-16 ... I look to every next update with the hope that the F-16 will eventually become a purebred fighter - as I knew it before I tried it in DCS. I realize it's still WIP and the flight model is not finished - but the waiting is so painful...

Question, does pilot A and B possess the required knowledge on the ways the F-16 fight compared to the F-18. They have very differnet fighting styles and knowing how to use the specific aircraft a major part of dogfighting. The F-16 isn't a pickup and fight aircraft. It requires knowledge on air speeds etc. to correctly use the aircraft in the way it was intended.
Don't get me wrong, the flight model in dcs isn't perfect and never will be, but some of the things that are often pointed out as incorrect often have pilot error to blame and not the coding behind the systems.


Edited by SpaceMonkey037
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15 minutes ago, SpaceMonkey037 said:

Question, does pilot A and B possess the required knowledge on the ways the F-16 fight compared to the F-18. They have very differnet fighting styles and knowing how to use the specific aircraft a major part of dogfighting. The F-16 isn't a pickup and fight aircraft. It requires knowledge on air speeds etc. to correctly use the aircraft in the way it was intended.
Don't get me wrong, the flight model in dcs isn't perfect and never will be, but some of the things that are often pointed out as incorrect often have pilot error to blame and not the coding behind the systems.

 

 

Some pilots like C.W. Lemoine flown extensively on both types, F-16C block 30 (with slightly better T/W and wing loading than our Block 50) and Hornet. They can compare them directly.

And his career from USAF F-16 to USN or USMC F/A-18 is the exception rather than the rule.


Edited by bies
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28 minutes ago, SpaceMonkey037 said:

Question, does pilot A and B possess the required knowledge on the ways the F-16 fight compared to the F-18. They have very differnet fighting styles and knowing how to use the specific aircraft a major part of dogfighting. The F-16 isn't a pickup and fight aircraft. It requires knowledge on air speeds etc. to correctly use the aircraft in the way it was intended.
Don't get me wrong, the flight model in dcs isn't perfect and never will be, but some of the things that are often pointed out as incorrect often have pilot error to blame and not the coding behind the systems.

 

This is an obvious matter - I would not write about it without having thousands of hours of flight time in simulators - 95% of which is on the F-16, knowing perfectly well the good and bad sides of this bird. When looking for a way to gain an advantage over the F-18, for example, we used various methods of fighting. The ones we know for the F-16 at the moment in DCS do not work. The plane loses speed too quickly, has too small G at a given AOA - that's why such topics were, and will be until this changes. Anyone familiar with this machine knows that something is wrong with the flight model. It is known that it will not be perfect, but it could be more real.

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  • ED Team

please try and stay on topic, thread is discussing the viper 

 

thank you

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On 2/7/2021 at 3:57 PM, Mover said:

 

If it could reach a higher G than the F-16 at the same speed, you're correct.  Or if the F-16 is at a much higher speed at 9Gs.  

 

But the broad statement that an F/A-18 outrates an F-16 that I originally addressed is incorrect.  I used the formula to demonstrate why, generally speaking.

 

A caveat to that would be a Swiss Hornet which can also pull 9Gs with big motors, but here, we're talking about the variant available in DCS.  

 

Well you could also say that the Hornet can outrate the Viper, in ITR & STR, at all speeds up till the point where the Hornet is G-restricted, which I think is what some are asking you wether is the case IRL. Because that's how it currently stands in DCS, and if you pull the paddle in the DCS Hornet you'll outrate the DCS Viper at any speed, the DCS Hornet being able to reach 9 G at a lower speed than the DCS Viper, instantanous AND sustained.

 

Now we do know the DCS F-16 is underperforming in both areas atm, and we've been told the FM isn't finished, so this isn't a complaint, just stating the facts.


Edited by Hummingbird
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9 hours ago, Hummingbird said:

 

Well you could also say that the Hornet can outrate the Viper, in ITR & STR, at all speeds up till the point where the Hornet is G-restricted, which I think is what some are asking you wether is the case IRL. Because that's how it currently stands in DCS, and if you pull the paddle in the DCS Hornet you'll outrate the DCS Viper at any speed, the DCS Hornet being able to reach 9 G at a lower speed than the DCS Viper, instantanous AND sustained.

 

Now we do know the DCS F-16 is underperforming in both areas atm, and we've been told the FM isn't finished, so this isn't a complaint, just stating the facts.

 

 

You could say that, but you'd be incorrect.  The Hornet is not a rate fighter.  Going 2C or uphill against an F-16 in a Hornet is a great way to die.  ("Go up to blow up").

 

And it's been said many times (but is always worth repeating), but the paddle switch in the Hornet is NOT used in BFM.  

 

Sorry for the thread hijack, BIGNEWY, I'll stop.  

 

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12 hours ago, Mover said:

 

You could say that, but you'd be incorrect.  The Hornet is not a rate fighter.  Going 2C or uphill against an F-16 in a Hornet is a great way to die.  ("Go up to blow up").

 

And it's been said many times (but is always worth repeating), but the paddle switch in the Hornet is NOT used in BFM.  

 

Sorry for the thread hijack, BIGNEWY, I'll stop.  

 

 

No Mover, in DCS I am not incorrect. In real life however, that was the question.

 

And I know about the paddle, but things don't work like that in DCS.

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I hope, after current F-16C block 50 CCIP will be finished, ED may model also some Cold War "dogfighter" lightweight F-16 variant like ~two tons lighter F-16A with identical wing surface and light nose or F-16C block 30 with higher T/W and lower wing loading - to feel the raw power of the F-16 in a dogfight.

 

Seeing RL F-16 pilots in this topic i won't comment it's current performance, they know a lot better, that's for sure.

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32 minutes ago, bies said:

I hope, after current F-16C block 50 CCIP will be finished, ED may model also some Cold War "dogfighter" lightweight F-16 variant like ~two tons lighter F-16A with identical wing surface and light nose or F-16C block 30 with higher T/W and lower wing loading - to feel the raw power of the F-16 in a dogfight.

 

Seeing RL F-16 pilots in this topic i won't comment it's current performance, they know a lot better, that's for sure.

 

Well since we have the RL performance charts we can easily tell wether it's accurate or not, and atm it isn't 🙂 But there's a whole seperate thread dealing with this, so I'll leave it at that.

 

 


Edited by Hummingbird
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One more thing. The flight characteristics of the Viper in DCS are completely different for a clean Viper without weapons and pylons, and completely different for a Viper without weapons but with pylons. It is amazing to me that a few pylons can have such a strong influence on the performance of such a powerful jet plane.

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1 hour ago, Versor said:

One more thing. The flight characteristics of the Viper in DCS are completely different for a clean Viper without weapons and pylons, and completely different for a Viper without weapons but with pylons. It is amazing to me that a few pylons can have such a strong influence on the performance of such a powerful jet plane.

 

It's not just an engine it's literally everything else as well. The HAF Blk 50 manuals (supplement) are public and can be found on google - go look those up. There you will find all quantifiable data you'll need and performance charts for 3 drag indexes (clean, average loadout and heavy loadout). Our DCS Viper is most certainly too fast at lower altitudes, mostly due to the lack of any damage or consequences from busting said speeds, and slightly too slow at altitude. In terms of sustained rate and energy re-gain it also underperforms vastly compared to those charts. I think those charts is what most are and *should* be referencing. Obviously those are just the crude, estimated numbers in ISA conditions based on flight test data for just 3 drag indexes and fixed weights. I do hope ED wrap up the F/A-18C development this year and focus their full attention on the Viper, primarily addressing said FM and FLCS issues and get it to like within 5% margin of error, which is the usual standard for even commercial sims and surely more than good enough for our game.

 

People also need to understand what they are looking at and looking for when evaluating various charts and comparing airframes - most the time you won't find comparable loadouts (primarily a clean jet), altitude bands and conditions to make a fair comparison. Let alone how precise and consistent you have to be in testing that stuff in the game itsels - flying numbers *exactly* is no easy, let alone the fact that most also don't know how to set up actual ISA conditions in DCS.


Edited by Skysurfer
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  • 3 weeks later...

EM diagram is available for viper and tomcat; for viper in that greek f16 block 50's supplement you can find em diagram for almost all configs you can think of. The funny thing is in tomcat's natops performance supplement EM diagram is readily available, but the hornet's natops performance supplement (either ABCD or EF) does not mention em diagram at all. Yes from the viper manual it's a tremendous power monster as seen not only from PS=0 curve, but confirmed from numerous real viper pilots, like mover, or the people who fought against vipers; why we dcs players are so obsessed with it, is there is no available em diagram for hornet to validate. There are people who compares public available f16 and f14 em diagrams line by line, and report to developers where it's underpowered, overpowered, etc. For f18, there isn't such available data, and therefore there has been such a huge controversy on hornet fm.

 

Yes I know we have this... but 1. it's painful to read 2. still does not mention sustained turn rate

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1B37AYW5VAuQo6Uc61GCrhocxV0keHeNM/view?usp=sharing

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12 hours ago, Spurts said:

That diagram is nothing more than a graphical representation of the math for turn rate and turn radius.  It has zero bearing on sustained or instantaneous turn performance.

Yeah. "Turn Capabilities" is a bad title. It's just the solutions to the Aernautics 101 kinematical equations for steady level turns, which is purely geometrical and independent of aircraft type. 

"Subsonic is below Mach 1, supersonic is up to Mach 5. Above Mach 5 is hypersonic. And reentry from space, well, that's like Mach a lot."

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  • 1 month later...

OR maybe its not that its to fast, I just dont think F-16 in DCS (Not IRL) Is affected to air temperature environment at all does not matter the condition, Compared to other modules, And seems to not be draggy carrying a full payload? Different temps in DCS world is the test you might want to try. Than just the F-16 is to fast.

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