Is there any possibility of automatic refueling?

[Harker]

I do not post often (or ever) but this topic comes up a lot and it really bugs me to see the "get gud noob!" comments. Before anybody gets their feathers ruffled let me explain:
 
AAR is NOT easy...it may be for some of you but that does not mean it is...For example, I play music. Guitar, Bass, Keys etc. If I told you that playing "Tom Sawyer" by RUSH is easy, that would be true for ME, maybe not for you  but I have been playing music for 35 years. I also have been flight simming about that long, essentially since there were computer flight sims (F117) I have 2,000 hours in FSX (with A2A, Majestic, and other "complex" planes) and hundreds of hours in DCS and IL2. I don't fly MP because 1) my computer is a bit on the old side and B) I am a terrible pilot. I practice AAR quite often and I am now able to semi-reliably refuel the A10 but in the F14 I just can't get it (yeah I know this is about F18, I haven't even tried it yet)...I hope to one day "get gud" but some times I just want to shoot stuff. Again I am not singling any one out or trying to start an argument, everything that people said is valid, check unlimited fuel and practice, practice, practice etc. But just stop with the "it's easy"  and "u no gud at MP" stuff...for some of us it really isn't easy.

I can't argue with that. An elitist attitude doesn't help anyone.

I'm personally against automatic helpers, but I'm all for improved training missions and, for example, with additional visual cues and advise on how to correctly fly formation.

I think one of the biggest problems of DCS is that in SP, you're the flight lead 98% of the time, meaning that you never have to learn how to fly formation. I've been playing DCS since 2013 and until last year, that time was mostly spent in SP. I knew the Hornet inside and out and I could even AAR reliably (took me a long time to do it, but I was putting it off, tbh). But when I tried playing online co-op, I found out that I was terrible at keeping formation, because I never learned how to.

I now run a squadron and I have guys manage to AAR, after 3-4 months in DCS. And I think it has a lot to do with two things:

1. The fact that they learn how to fly as wingmen.

2. How we go about teaching AAR. I'll tell them what they need to do and give them the tips I know. They'll try and they'll fail to connect. I'll stay on the SRS and talk them through it, keeping them from getting frustrated and more often than not, it yields very positive results.

A helpful attitude helps a lot.

[Sr.]

1 hour ago, Target71 said:

I do not post often (or ever) but this topic comes up a lot and it really bugs me to see the "get gud noob!" comments. Before anybody gets their feathers ruffled let me explain:

 

AAR is NOT easy...it may be for some of you but that does not mean it is...For example, I play music. Guitar, Bass, Keys etc. If I told you that playing "Tom Sawyer" by RUSH is easy, that would be true for ME, maybe not for you  but I have been playing music for 35 years. I also have been flight simming about that long, essentially since there were computer flight sims (F117) I have 2,000 hours in FSX (with A2A, Majestic, and other "complex" planes) and hundreds of hours in DCS and IL2. I don't fly MP because 1) my computer is a bit on the old side and B) I am a terrible pilot. I practice AAR quite often and I am now able to semi-reliably refuel the A10 but in the F14 I just can't get it (yeah I know this is about F18, I haven't even tried it yet)...I hope to one day "get gud" but some times I just want to shoot stuff. Again I am not singling any one out or trying to start an argument, everything that people said is valid, check unlimited fuel and practice, practice, practice etc. But just stop with the "it's easy"  and "u no gud at MP" stuff...for some of us it really isn't easy.

 

Good comparison

I dabble in guitar as well, and it took me less time to learn the solo for Hotel California and play Forty Six and 2 from start to finish than I've spent trying to AAR.

[=Mac=]

I have noticed that, before, AAR was to get steady, move in slowly, make small movements, and don't expect instant response. However, I think the use of turbulence has added difficulty to AAR. I can fly right up to the basket but as soon as I get close to that slipstream, I have to fight. You can't just hold still and ease on in. The turbulence makes you fight for position. It seems to me that the turbulence eases up a lot once you plug in. 

 

I haven't refueled off the KC-135 in a very long time so I can't say. But the Herc is very difficult compared to what it was. Nevertheless, I CAN plug in regularly. It's just a lot harder, now.

[BarTzi]

3 hours ago, Target71 said:

I do not post often (or ever) but this topic comes up a lot and it really bugs me to see the "get gud noob!" comments. Before anybody gets their feathers ruffled let me explain:

 

AAR is NOT easy...it may be for some of you but that does not mean it is...For example, I play music. Guitar, Bass, Keys etc. If I told you that playing "Tom Sawyer" by RUSH is easy, that would be true for ME, maybe not for you  but I have been playing music for 35 years. I also have been flight simming about that long, essentially since there were computer flight sims (F117) I have 2,000 hours in FSX (with A2A, Majestic, and other "complex" planes) and hundreds of hours in DCS and IL2. I don't fly MP because 1) my computer is a bit on the old side and B) I am a terrible pilot. I practice AAR quite often and I am now able to semi-reliably refuel the A10 but in the F14 I just can't get it (yeah I know this is about F18, I haven't even tried it yet)...I hope to one day "get gud" but some times I just want to shoot stuff. Again I am not singling any one out or trying to start an argument, everything that people said is valid, check unlimited fuel and practice, practice, practice etc. But just stop with the "it's easy"  and "u no gud at MP" stuff...for some of us it really isn't easy.

You are missing the point. You have been playing music for 35 years. You can master pieces that are harder to play because you have the experience and because you keep practicing. 

OP hasn't seriously oracticed AAR. OP is basically asking you to build him a self playing guitar for him to hold during his gigs.

 

 

[hotrod525]

Honestly, i fly DCS since A10C beta in 2010 and to this day, i still have sweety hands whenever i do AAR, either on A10C/2, FA18C nor the AV8B NA. AAR in DCS is about two thing IMHO, getting use to very close formation and having self control over yourself. It's "scary", "stressing", "frustrating", but at the end of the day, it is about controling those feeling (and obviously the plane) and getting into the proper position for the proper amount of time.

[Target71]

2 hours ago, BarTzi said:

You are missing the point. You have been playing music for 35 years. You can master pieces that are harder to play because you have the experience and because you keep practicing. 

OP hasn't seriously oracticed AAR. OP is basically asking you to build him a self playing guitar for him to hold during his gigs.

 

 

The fact that you have to practice that much makes it hard, no? That point thing is a bugger bear...

 

edit: cool, I just doubled my posts today from the last four years....

Edited February 14, 2021 by Target71

[BarTzi]

9 hours ago, Target71 said:

The fact that you have to practice that much makes it hard, no? That point thing is a bugger bear...

 

edit: cool, I just doubled my posts today from the last four years....

 

You don't have to practice that much, you just have to practice the right thing, which is formation flying.

 

[scoobie]

On 2/1/2021 at 7:50 PM, magman said:

After many hours practicing aerial refueling

Divided into how many sessions? Seriously. If you want to learn it "by violence", tormenting yourself for hours in a single take until your hand goes pale and eyes bleed - don't. It's not the way it works.

Probably the best piece of advice I read on these forums (regarding AAR) was "it's like learning to play the piano". Not THAT hard, of course, but the general rule is the same - your brain simply needs TIME to gain a new skill. Time and regular repetition.

 

People are different so I don't know what works best for you, but as a ballpark figure I'd recommend to do it like this:

1. Practice AAR no more than 30 minutes a day. (Unless you start to like it and want a bit more.)

Be wary of the level of your frustration and fatigue - when it gets high and you can see you are getting worse than you were 5 minutes ago - stop it! Otherwise it will continue to get worse. Come back tomorrow or a few hours later.
Ignore the fact how bad you are! Don't whip yourself, it doesn't help.
Make/get a mission which starts close behind the tanker so that you don't waste time looking for and/or chasing the tanker for 10 minutes.
Turn off wake turbulance - if only to get rid of one "unknown" from the equation.
Revise your controllers setup if necessary - if you suffer from PIO, see if you actually swing the joystick much - if you do, it's you. If you only blow at the joystick and the plane goes nuts, it's the controller.

 

2. After a session of such daily AAR chore, go and have some fun with DCS, kaboom things, whatever you like. Fun is VERY important, even if flying was your job!

Repeat for a few weeks or just as long as it takes. Never whip yourself for poor results. Yes, you need to try hard, but trying TOO hard leads nowhere.
At one point you will notice you are gradually, slooowly getting better and better.
And then you will notice that formation flying got a lot easier, somehow, magically

Or - as others wisely advise - START with formation flying. It allows for some leeway - initialy you may choose to fly a bit loose with the lead and then, once you get decent at it, tighten formation and practice that.

 

As for the cheat options, I'm not against them. For AAR it could be a virtual "bubble" of radius R, centered around the basket or the boom's tip and you'd have to stay within the buble to sip fuel.
On the other hand I think it's important to understand the difference between such cheat option and - for example - unlimited weapons. The latter helps you gain a new skill, e.g. weapon employment procedure in your new plane, whereas "cheat AAR" PREVENTS you from gaining a new skill. Just saying. Your DCS is yours, so what you do with it is none of my business, but it's good to be aware of that.

 

[boombazookajd]

On 2/14/2021 at 6:53 AM, dburne said:

I was frustrated trying to learn refueling in the Hornet recently and came across this vid where he talks about using part of the AP function to help dampen the controls for a more steady approach and connection to the basket.

This method really helped me.

 

 

Also recently started my first campaign in the Hornet - Rising Squall. I have had one mission so far that has AAR and thankfully it had automated as an option.

 

This. 

 

I absolutely HATED AAR, and I still do. In all honesty I dread the tanker. Every time I line up with it, he turns. Then there's some stupid reason I'd climb or dip down. Everyone says "the drogue doesn't move" but I'd swear to everything holy that thing moved just as I approached it. Then I found this video. 

 

Now I line myself up and engage BARO hold, only to use pitch trim to bump me out of BARO hold, and that seems to dampen my crappy X52 to a level that I can actually hook up rather well now. I'm still working on it and I try to tank as often as I can as it seems to be an extremely perishable skill. 

 

But I've found the biggest issue that I have, in my opinion, is a limitation from hardware. 

 

that said, due to some folks not having top of the line gear OR the patience OR willingness to dump HOURS into such a minute task... I'm all for a mode that makes AAR refueling easier. I believe F4:AF had an "easy mode" that once you were in a certain area, you kinda got "sucked" to the boom. While the drogue often "pops" onto my refueling boom, it just as often flies right by as though it doesn't register my boom. 

 

I also get a really cool "breakaway" call just as i hook up, +1-2 knots of overtake, correct positioning and they'll call it. Also, I've had the refueling tanker randomly pull the hose in on me and call "return pre-contact" while I'm only a few feet away from the hose. 

 

There are many reasons why AAR sucks. I don't think I'd use an "easy mode" if offered but given there are several easy modes in the game, I'd welcome one for AAR for those who feel left out due to several different reasons. There's no need for elitism or git gud in the game. 

[oldcrusty]

1 hour ago, boombazookajd said:

 

This. 

 

I absolutely HATED AAR, and I still do. In all honesty I dread the tanker. Every time I line up with it, he turns. Then there's some stupid reason I'd climb or dip down. Everyone says "the drogue doesn't move" but I'd swear to everything holy that thing moved just as I approached it. Then I found this video. 

 

Now I line myself up and engage BARO hold, only to use pitch trim to bump me out of BARO hold, and that seems to dampen my crappy X52 to a level that I can actually hook up rather well now. I'm still working on it and I try to tank as often as I can as it seems to be an extremely perishable skill. 

 

But I've found the biggest issue that I have, in my opinion, is a limitation from hardware. 

 

that said, due to some folks not having top of the line gear OR the patience OR willingness to dump HOURS into such a minute task... I'm all for a mode that makes AAR refueling easier. I believe F4:AF had an "easy mode" that once you were in a certain area, you kinda got "sucked" to the boom. While the drogue often "pops" onto my refueling boom, it just as often flies right by as though it doesn't register my boom. 

 

I also get a really cool "breakaway" call just as i hook up, +1-2 knots of overtake, correct positioning and they'll call it. Also, I've had the refueling tanker randomly pull the hose in on me and call "return pre-contact" while I'm only a few feet away from the hose. 

 

There are many reasons why AAR sucks. I don't think I'd use an "easy mode" if offered but given there are several easy modes in the game, I'd welcome one for AAR for those who feel left out due to several different reasons. There's no need for elitism or git gud in the game. 

 

Yes, there are always elites... but I think in most cases people just feel proud when they accomplish something after hard work.

If some folks want to be 'sucked in' into the 1 nm vortex of a basket... fine with me.

 

I almost exclusively refuel from orbiting S3's and the biggest issue for me was changing the bank angle just before hitting the basket. When increasing the bank, the nose drops a tiny bit and vice versa. Also, throttle movements (both at the same time) will effect the nose enough to change the aim. I try to wiggle them instead of pushing/pulling. Perhaps my WH's friction is set too high.

Even after thousands of hours in this and the 'other' sim I still get a thrill when things go right.

 

As far as the stick goes, the curves have to be flattened around the center. When I was learning to refuel in the Rhino sim, I did try to use the FPAH control mode ( a better version of ATTH in legacy Hornet)... it was helpful. My virtual skipper frowned at this so had to learn the hard way. 

Do not trim or use Baro hold or anything else...  Play with the stick curves and very fine power adjustments.

[DaWu]

Aar is a frustrating mess. I shoot down the tanker every time when I lose my patience 

[Glide]

I've built this into my every day flying now.  Every mission I create has a tanker waiting for me as soon as I climb out.  I practice at least one aspect of AAR each mission, even if it's forming up with the tanker and waving.  I've added AI's to refuel along with me, so I can just watch them work if I'm not in the mood.  Even when I don't try to refuel, it feels like I've been a part of the show.  The maps are starting to feel small, as you can cover a lot of ground with a refuelling leg in the mission.

[Flyer0001]

Perhaps this question is gratuitous, but I am curious as to what DCS pilot's second most difficult thing to learn in DCS is. I presume aerial refueling is the most difficult for everyone.  My second most difficult thing to learn would be flying the Ka-50 with the Game Flight Mode unchecked.  More difficult for me than a carrier landing.  I would put aerial refueling much more difficult than learning the Ka-50.  

[unlikely_spider]

14 minutes ago, OldFalcon said:

Perhaps this question is gratuitous, but I am curious as to what DCS pilot's second most difficult thing to learn in DCS is. I presume aerial refueling is the most difficult for everyone.  My second most difficult thing to learn would be flying the Ka-50 with the Game Flight Mode unchecked.  More difficult for me than a carrier landing.  I would put aerial refueling much more difficult than learning the Ka-50.  

I'm not sure which was harder, but I think the two single procedures I've spent most time on before I got right were coming to a low hover from speed/altitude in the Huey, and AAR.

[Flyer0001]

8 hours ago, unlikely_spider said:

I'm not sure which was harder, but I think the two single procedures I've spent most time on before I got right were coming to a low hover from speed/altitude in the Huey, and AAR.

I have not been able to master the low hover from speed/altitude in the Ka-50 myself even though I feel okay about flying the Ka-50 without the game flight mode checked.  Comparing AAR to the hover maneuver is more appropriate than comparing it to flying an aircraft since both are specific maneuvers.  I will say I can achieve the maneuver given enough time and room.  But that doesn't help much when under fire.

 

By asking this question, I was hoping to get an idea of how hard learning AAR is for the people who don't want an "easier way" of AAR.  Some people say it isn't hard.  To me it is a nightmare.  Although I can see benefits of staying with it and learning it.  There always seems to be a what - "residual" learning in these situations which helps other areas.   Because of AAR I rearranged my setup to use my rudder pedals more efficiently and now my back doesn't hurt after a flying session.  

 

I noticed you had a post under another topic about making the probe/drogue more realistic by making the drogue basket solid and not some apparition passing through the nose of the plane.  I understood you to say that it would be harder if they made the drogue solid.  I thought it would be easier.  I have not achieved proficiency in AAR yet but I thought if the basket was solid a pilot might be able to keep it on the side of the plane with the probe.  On the other hand, having the drogue bounce off the plane would complicate the mechanics to the point where anticipating the movement of the drogue is extremely difficult.

 

I am starting to think myself that acquiring an easier AAR is problematic.  The developers are chasing reality as best as anyone could.  They only have the visual sensory input to work with for AAR.  (Having the guy in the Tanker yelling," Break Away! Break Away!" doesn't really help much.)  As has been alluded to, a Ph.D. Psychology candidate could do their dissertation on simulating behavior with only visual inputs when both visual and other sensory inputs are required using AAR in DCS.  ie.  There is no inner ear (balance/movement) or feeling (pressure) inputs.  I think this is a far bigger issue than I realized for a long time.  So what do the developers do?  If they change the one sensory input they have control over (what we see) to make things easier, they are actually making the visual aspect less realistic.  Less realism is not what anyone wants.  

 

I don't have a problem with a another check box which allows for easier AAR.  Hopefully this would be some kind of a stepping stone to learning AAR and not just a "cop out".  I don't see the unlimited fuel option as being a substitute at all.  Many pilots if not most pilots, even newbies, eventually want the experience of running low on fuel (less weight, not making it back to the carrier) and having to find the tanker and getting set up to obtain the fuel even if they can't hook up to the basket.

 

The problem for me is what is the standard AAR?  For multi-player, competition, dealing with the community as a whole, what level of expertise is required for AAR?  I do not have a suggestion for this.

 

I did not mean for this to get so long.  These are issues I have been thinking about every time I get behind that Tanker.

[Flyer0001]

Thinking further about this issue, maybe I do have a suggestion.  Perhaps someone could come up with a rigorous training program.  Someone who has some skill and experience at training and that knows the mission editor and is proficient at AAR.  (This of course counts me out on several levels. There is a interactive tutorial on carrier landings which is quite good and has the structure for each mission similar to what I was thinking would work.)  Of course a different training program would be needed for each plane. The training program could be structured as a campaign with the following missions:

 

1. The basics - Make sure the trainee has the basic knowledge of AAR, TACAN, how to use the refueling probe, etc.  No skill, just knowledge.

2. Start with developing skills - This would be an interactive training mission dealing with formation flying only.  (One problem with learning AAR is that to jump into a mission for AAR and end up flying all over the place and then not improving for a week is to say the least, daunting.)  There could be several missions with each new mission a new level of expertise.  This would be up to the developer.

3. Move to the next phase with mission(s) dealing with AAR.  Again each new mission dealing with a new level of expertise. 

 

All the missions dealing with developing a particular skill would have triggers set up to test the pilot on how they are doing and to let the pilot know if they are ready to move on to the next level or mission.  This may be a less frustrating way of learning AAR than just jumping into the AAR missions.

 

This of course would be a lot of work.  But it is essentially developing a campaign for a particular plane.  This means it could be done by a third party and will ameliorate this issue.    

[randomTOTEN]

14 hours ago, OldFalcon said:

My second most difficult thing to learn would be flying the Ka-50 with the Game Flight Mode unchecked.

I think there's a skill mismatch here. I'm presuming when you're flying the Ka-50 in "Simulation" flight mode, you still have the various AP/FD channels connected. If flying an extremely automated helicopter is considered a challenge to you, AAR might just demand more controls coordination than you're presently prepared for. You probably need more of a buildup.

 

14 hours ago, OldFalcon said:

I am curious as to what DCS pilot's second most difficult thing to learn in DCS is.

I spent more time practicing the carrier landing in the Hornet than I did AAR in the Hornet. I've been stuck for months on the "Unguided bombing from a half loop" mission for the L-39 Kursant campaign. You think AAR is difficult? The hornet is Fly-By-Wire, you can sit behind the tanker at 1G for as long as your fuel remaining allows. When you connect that limit gets extended. Either you're wings level or in a shallow bank. Really the only limit is your patience.

In my L-39 mission there are no stability computers. The mission task is performed immediately after an 2-3G Immelmann. You have mere seconds to accurately place the aircraft's nose, while in a 180° roll from inverted flight. There are only 2 chances to drop the weapons on the target before the mission fails.

 

That's not to discount AAR. It is in no way easy, and I think for many people they don't want to commit to the practice required to become proficient. Nearly everybody who was put in the time can see that quite clearly. But it's certainly not impossible (there are probably 2 users for which that may actually be true). Otherwise it's months of forum posts of "this is impossible," "we need a cheat mode" followed by a post exclaiming with excitement you've completed a refueling event. And the cycle continues with fresh blood... here we are again.

5 hours ago, OldFalcon said:

I was hoping to get an idea of how hard learning AAR is for the people who don't want an "easier way" of AAR.

The procedure itself is not "hard." It's quite simple. The "hard" part is developing the skills of precise aircraft control. Both in the hands and in the eyes. People come to AAR without being able to accurately control their aircraft, and without caring about accurate aircraft control. They slam the jet down on the pavement for landing, they don't care about smooth accurate landings. They don't care about accurate pitch on takeoff, or accurate speeds and headings on the departure. You can spectate many players in MP and when the jet runs out of fuel they just eject. They don't care about tight position control in formation flight, don't care about an accurately flown Carrier pattern. Accurately flying the ball, and trying to catch the 3 wire.

 

Suddenly you place yourself behind a tanker, and those abilities you didn't care about suddenly become required. I watched a track of a user trying to AAR and his formation control was so bad he slammed into the tail of the KC-135. Three times in a single attempt. A mid-air collision. He declared his formation flying "needed a little work" and blamed his problems on the boom operator AI.

 

5 hours ago, OldFalcon said:

To me it is a nightmare.

And I'm pretty sure we can all relate. It becomes a frustrating experience for everybody that tires it. And I can tell you the progress will be extremely slow at first, and you will be immensely satisfied when you accomplish it. And you will accomplish it. Then it will still be a challenge, and you will feel "out of practice" some times, but you'll have otherwise very little issues with it after the initial hurdle is crossed, and you cement your new skills. Then if you stick around you'll see how many of these posts there are.

 

5 hours ago, OldFalcon said:

Because of AAR I rearranged my setup to use my rudder pedals more efficiently and now my back doesn't hurt after a flying session.

I learned on the A-10C years ago. I don't touch the rudder on any aircraft I AAR.

 

5 hours ago, OldFalcon said:

As has been alluded to, a Ph.D. Psychology candidate could do their dissertation on simulating behavior with only visual inputs when both visual and other sensory inputs are required using AAR in DCS.  ie.  There is no inner ear (balance/movement) or feeling (pressure) inputs. I think this is a far bigger issue than I realized for a long time.

I still think this is rationalization by people who haven't developed the coordination and visualization skills yet. It's entirely possible to accomplish it stationary on the earth looking at a screen. It's 100% a visual procedure. You have to learn to control your aircraft precisely in relation to another aircraft purely by visually judging it's relative position and motion. Many many many real pilots let their inner ear and sense of pressure lead them to their death, and I think desktop pilots convince themselves that these are helpful, because the realities of the experience of motion are so obviously missing from their experience. Speculation fills the void.

Perhaps VR users have the case for 3D vision and judging close distance and relative motion, but I found it sufficient enough to adapt using purely 2D references so I don't accept that it's necessary for success. Perhaps it has a benefit, but I also read the downsides of this simulation interface.

5 hours ago, OldFalcon said:

I don't see the unlimited fuel option as being a substitute at all.

It's not supposed to be a substitute for the building of an entirely new set of skills. It only solves the fuel problem. The fuel problem is given as an excuse to implement an entirely new set of code which exists to bypass the building of new skills. I don't think the fuel is ever actually the issue, seeing as how this option is so effortlessly rejected, but so perfectly suitable. If you want immersion of fuel management during a mission, you also have the opportunity to experience (probably) the most realistic AAR experience available. Get up there and experience it. Or divert to a land base. Those are both real options if you want real fuel management.

 

5 hours ago, OldFalcon said:

Many pilots if not most pilots, even newbies, eventually want the experience of running low on fuel (less weight, not making it back to the carrier) and having to find the tanker and getting set up to obtain the fuel even if they can't hook up to the basket.

But nobody wants to actually practice AAR. Some other poster was complaining that he didn't have time for AAR due to his limited schedule. His sorties ran in excess of 3 hours every week (requiring AAR) but it was unacceptable to dedicate any of that time to building a new skill in his hobby. Nobody likes running training sorties, even when they actually need them. And then people complain there's nothing to do on the training range...

 

5 hours ago, OldFalcon said:

The problem for me is what is the standard AAR?

What "standard"? The tanker exists or it doesn't. The mission requires the skill of AAR or it doesn't. The player joins the server, or runs the mission, or they don't. The server/mission enforces unlimited fuel or it doesn't.

 

6 hours ago, OldFalcon said:

These are issues I have been thinking about every time I get behind that Tanker.

Why are you getting behind tankers?

 

4 hours ago, OldFalcon said:

Perhaps someone could come up with a rigorous training program.

Most of us already know the "rigorous training program." It's been in place for over a decade now. We know the drill. It's repeated numerous times, and it will be repeated. You're going to do it too.

Nobody needs to "develop it." Eagle Dynamics already did. It's rooted deep in the flight dynamics (and to a small extent) the AI code. It's buried deep in your brain. Your psychology too. The sequence of events is nearly universal. The time taken at the identical various stages is the main variable.

I can watch a replay by a person I've never met, never heard their voice, never seen their face. I know where they are, I know what they feel. I don't know the language their profanity is.

4 hours ago, OldFalcon said:

Of course a different training program would be needed for each plane.

Nope, it's the same for every single airplane (at least so far).

4 hours ago, OldFalcon said:

The training program could be structured as a campaign with the following missions:

Or you can place 2 aircraft on an empty map and accomplish 99% of what these missions could ever offer.

 

For the Hornet, the Case 1 instant action mission already has a tanker orbiting the boat. Literally all that's required as of right now (TODAY) is to load that mission and call it up.

5 hours ago, OldFalcon said:

One problem with learning AAR is that to jump into a mission for AAR and end up flying all over the place and then not improving for a week is to say the least, daunting.

Fancy triggers and dialogue won't somehow magically make that go away. You might think that daunting week is a total waste, but I can argue improvements were made. Maybe at the end of the week you found the tanker, how to call it, or even just generally figured out what way you were going. Nobody flies a week trying to build a skill without making some improvement. Even if they don't feel like it.

 

5 hours ago, OldFalcon said:

There could be several missions with each new mission a new level of expertise.

When flying AAR you need to be looking at the tanker, not looking at the HUD, not looking at text on the screen, not listening to a voice, not thinking about the dialogue. Flying the tanker. The levels of expertise and progression are basically handed down from God. 2 jets on a map does this.

 

You're speculating about a lot of this. You're speculating because you're probably at one of the early stages, looking at what feels like an impossible barrier of skill to even approach the next step. Thinking there must be some secret skill, some hidden technique which allows other people to make it look so easy. If they could just show it to you, or tell you how to do it, then things would just go so much faster. Because you keep trying and trying and it never gets better. It can't be like this, there has to be a better way.

 

Sorry OldFalcon,

guess how those people got to where they are now? yep. settle in. it's a slog and it's gonna really try your patience but I assure you there's a light at the end of this tunnel. And you just thought you were gonna shoot missiles huh...

[shagrat]

On 2/14/2021 at 1:53 PM, dburne said:

I was frustrated trying to learn refueling in the Hornet recently and came across this vid where he talks about using part of the AP function to help dampen the controls for a more steady approach and connection to the basket.

This method really helped me.

 

 

Also recently started my first campaign in the Hornet - Rising Squall. I have had one mission so far that has AAR and thankfully it had automated as an option.

 

Yep, that's the interesting part. Campaign developers already "fix" the missing "easy" refueling with a "skip Option", as they realize that a customer may consider his AAR skills before buying a campaign... another very valid argument for an optional (!) easier way than spending a couple month worth of weekend game time training AAR instead of enjoying ones hobby.

It's not so much "I can't learn to..." , more "I don't want to spent my very limited time on..."

[shagrat]

On 2/14/2021 at 7:38 PM, BarTzi said:

You are missing the point. You have been playing music for 35 years. You can master pieces that are harder to play because you have the experience and because you keep practicing. 

OP hasn't seriously oracticed AAR. OP is basically asking you to build him a self playing guitar for him to hold during his gigs.

 

 

Actually we need a "play along" option were you can slow down the tempo and practice and speed up when you learned the tune until you "master" it. Just having an expert speed playing it for you again and again and telling you to practice is not going to help.

An option for a relaxed "contact box" similar to rudder-assist or a magnetic lasso like effect that you can tune down or deactivate when you get better, would be a total game changer for newcomers. 

As an individual option it doesn't take away anything from experienced players or break anything.

[DaWu]

I must correct myself. In the meantime I am able to refuel the F-18 every time. No training no tipps could solve this problem. The only thing that helped was upgrading from my old X-55 to a Thrustmaster Warthog F18 Stick. The precision is worlds apart and its so much easier now. But it shouldnt be that way as not everyone can afford a 300€ joystick.

[probad]

i dont get how turbulence is even a factor if you're hitting turbulence its just another indication you're doing it all wrong

stop doing things wrong and you wont be frustrated anymore

 

its this attitude of 'its not my problem, you fix it' that is really repellent about this whole concept here

the more you justify bad habits the more you degrade a simulator's educational value

Edited March 10, 2021 by probad

[shagrat]

On 3/10/2021 at 2:07 AM, probad said:

i dont get how turbulence is even a factor if you're hitting turbulence its just another indication you're doing it all wrong

stop doing things wrong and you wont be frustrated anymore

 

its this attitude of 'its not my problem, you fix it' that is really repellent about this whole concept here

the more you justify bad habits the more you degrade a simulator's educational value

 

I'll never understand why people who took the time to learn it, categorically want to deny others an option to help in the learning process, despite it has zero impact on their own experience while flying missions, apart from the couple multiplayer games where they would have to watch others succeeding faster/easier.

 

The fact alone that campaigns integrate crazy "skip AAR" workarounds, is indicating a serious need for a more fine tuned "assisted" option, like the Rudder-Assist for warbirds to help players without rudder pedals or a crappy twist stick.

 

If at least the tanker would talk to us, more than just "return pre contact", would announce IAS, the intent to initiate a turn... the boom operator dropping the boom into Position as a reference and move it around the canopy instead of making you fly around the boom... but anyway if the majority of DCS customers is flying SP and especially campaigns, for their own enjoyment, to the point where campaign creators have to consider AAR as a blocking point for sales and invent a "skip" option that should be enough indication to consider a less "intrusive" solution.

The important thing is, we need this as an individual option and not a general change (easier) AAR. Like Rudder-Assist it must be possible to completely switch it off, if we want the full hardcore experience. A scalable adjustment that gives you an option to improve and dial up the difficulty when you get better, would be the best solution in my opinion.

[ex81]

Well said, shagrat !

[Flyer0001]

I agree with shagrat as well.  I don't know if you read my post above.  I was trying to suggest an intermediate measure that would not necessarily include ED that might help out people struggling with AAR.  That suggestion was a training campaign geared towards AAR that would have formation practice.  I have read other post's where people seemed happy with a carrier landing training mission that apparently had triggers in it to let the pilot know how they were doing.  

 

I basically was criticized by another member paragraph by paragraph.  This reminded me that if I am having trouble finding the time to learn AAR, I really don't have time for posting suggestions on the forum.  So I changed my identity to something generic and will use the forum only for getting answers to specific questions.  I waited to see if anyone was even reading this topic before I decided to do one last post.

 

.PS. - I do think ED has to consider its business model when making decisions about things like AAR.  Where is the new $ coming from?  How will it continue to increase revenues?  Anyone writing on this forum is actually representing the company whether they want to or not.  If new members see an attitude much like a recruit joining the Navy Seals, this may not be conducive to these new members opening their wallets and buying planes.

[boombazookajd]

These philosophical debates always rage in various games. "I can do it, so can they", "git gud", or just flat out right denial of other people having issues. 

There are too many variables in the game for AAR to be, in my opinion, included in missions/campaigns. I see ones that flatly advertise "no aar required". Clearly like Shagat said, there's an acknowledgment that AAR sucks. 

 

First you have hardware variables. There are at least 4 common sticks; the X-52, X-55, Warthog, and T16000. None of which are cheap, especially the out dated yet still expensive AF warthog. Then you bump up to boutique sticks and i will never suggest someone bump up to these ridiculous prices when already we're spending so much on other peripheries. One suggestion given to me was "get VR" lmao. like just to tank reliably i need to drop another $1k for my make-believe. (this price includes the video card i'd need to run VR well). 

There needs to be an acknowledgment that the game has terrible tanking mechanics. We sit here and talk about "educational" then have a tanker that reads at a second grade level while we quote the NATOPS and have Lex making carrier videos covering carrier mechanics. NO ONE IS MAKING TANKING VIDEOS and do you know why? EVERYONE KNOWS TANKER MECHANICS ARE BROKEN. NO, they aren't broken, they aren't even there. 

Besides the random "breakaway" calls and the random "return pre-contact" and subsequent reeling in of the drogue, the tanker doesn't communicate. IRL, the tanker talks. So, we have to find ways around this and for me, the solution is simple:

 

Just like when you are lining up with the catapult, the game slides you into perfect position and hooks you up. This needs to be an enabled feature for AAR. Place a box in the options that allows for "assisted refueling" so when you get within a certain box near the tanker for boom/drogue, things hook up and sort of hold you there. The hold should mimic autopilot, taking an extreme amount of stick movement to maneuver while refueling while you are "glued" to the drogue. This box can also be quite small requiring you to put the aircraft about 95% of the way there so to speak. I think everyone should be able to fly close enough to the tanker with enough skill they can hold within that larger "box" while they struggle to get into the even smaller area for actual hook-up. 

This can alleviate the issue for those who find it too difficult or have lesser quality controls.