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[VEWY INTERAST] Gun acoustics still sound too low rate of fire.


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Interesting, it looks like the squeeze of the gun trigger sets a mark point for the targeting pod!

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Very interast, we are definitely looking at improving the harriers sounds, first ive seen of this video

 

Know and use all the capabilities in your airplane. If you don't, sooner or later, some guy who does use them all will kick your ass.

 

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  • RAZBAM_ELMO changed the title to [VEWY INTERAST] Gun acoustics still sound too low rate of fire.
8 hours ago, Tyrant07 said:

I'd also like to point out the pattern of impact n that video. Notice how its kind of spread and not a straight line laser like we currently have.

Yeah I think the gun does need a little spread, shame this clip doesn't clearly show the engagment range.

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Its difficult to tell too if this is just labelled as a GAU12 or if its something different. Quite a few TPOD data things that we dont have on the Gen4

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On 2/5/2021 at 1:34 PM, Dr Zaius said:

Yeah I think the gun does need a little spread, shame this clip doesn't clearly show the engagment range.

Range is at the bottom of the video. 3000 ft and counting.

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On 2/5/2021 at 4:45 AM, Tyrant07 said:

I'd also like to point out the pattern of impact n that video. Notice how its kind of spread and not a straight line laser like we currently have.

 

The range when gun was fired is 3100-3200 feet (950-975 meters). And on that moment the TPOD crosshair line is 24-23 meters, and end of the firing it is 20 meters.

The spread pattern is clearly around 40 meters wide.

 

Here are the frames from the video.

 

1. On the moment the TPOD manages to turn on the terrain to show its range _3059_ feet, before that it is just about 3200 when pointing straight.

2. The 20 meter line width (for easier scaling)

3. The dust clouds from impacting TP rounds.

 

GAU-20 spread.jpg

 

So right now we have a laser cannon in the AV-8B Harrier, if we can trust that video is from a AV-8B Harrier, and that Target Practice rounds gives same spread.

It should mean that we should have ~ 45 meters spread at 1000 meters.

Right now we have about 3-5 meter spread at 4500 ft (comparing to the visual scaling in DCS when firing at BTR-80 that is 7.7 meters long).

 

Comparing it to example Hornet or A-10 or basically any other, the GAU-12 is way too accurate as those others has large spread.

If we would place a BTR-80 inside that, it would be this size:

 

image.png

 

 

 


Edited by Fri13

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This is a good watch and gives you some sort of idea how accurate the gun was in many of the tests carried out:

 

 


Edited by Dr Zaius

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14 hours ago, Dr Zaius said:

This is a good watch and gives you some sort of idea how accurate the gun was in many of tests carried out:

 

By the specs the GAU-12 should have same accuracy as GAU-8, so 5 mil circle with 80% rounds hitting inside it.

In that video we don't know the ranges and other parameters as I recall from couple years back I saw it few times. 

 

So for the specs side, GAU-12 should be firing at 1000 meters (3300 ft) so that 80% of the rounds hits inside 12 meters circle. The BTR-80 is 7.7 meter long, so it will be almost twice the length where 80% of rounds would go.

 

But, if we go with the assumption that video OP posted is real thing, then the firing starts at about 3200 ft mark, the spread is about 45 meters with 66 shells impacting in that whole area, the 80% of the area of that is about 32-36 meters (for 40-45 meters circle) and hence one BTR-80 would fill 1/4 of the firing area. And it suddenly does so. 

 

The TPOD video shows the range to the target. It shows the scale of the target area. And it shows even the spread pattern in that area. But we can not be 100% sure that it is GAU-12, and we need to just assume that Training Projectiles used in the video would have same accuracy as the normal ones, but it wouldn't make sense to give for a training purposes a far more inaccurate ammunition when purpose is to learn to fire the gun and hit with it, or does it? We don't even know that is that video from a damaged gun that is being tested for its adjustment for specification or what....

 

 

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From video.

 

Manufactures recommended profile to pierce a medium tank armour, with GAU 12U cannon. 5 deg dive, 500 kts, shoot at 3000', stop at 2000', to penetrate 2.5 inches.

 

Gun is engineering test unit.

Ammo is API U. Harrier has fixed sights.

 

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Edited by Holbeach
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I don't think TP rounds are as accurate and I believe that's what we're seeing in the original video + a slightly further engagement range - TP muzzle velocities are generally quicker and I think that's due to them being a lighter (cheaper) round, in particular when compared to denser/heavier/slower rounds like API (DU/tungsten). In terms of it not making sense to train with a round that varies so much in accuracy I don't think there's much you can do about it, the pilot still gets to employ the gun against a target, which is invaluable and any inaccuracies due to the nature of ammo being used can easily be accounted for by the ranges 'score checkers'.

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3 hours ago, Dr Zaius said:

I don't think TP rounds are as accurate and I believe that's what we're seeing in the original video + a slightly further engagement range - TP muzzle velocities are generally quicker and I think that's due to them being a lighter (cheaper) round, in particular when compared to denser/heavier/slower rounds like API (DU/tungsten). In terms of it not making sense to train with a round that varies so much in accuracy I don't think there's much you can do about it, the pilot still gets to employ the gun against a target, which is invaluable and any inaccuracies due to the nature of ammo being used can easily be accounted for by the ranges 'score checkers'.

 

From a unclassified Budget Line Item Justification report from 2019 Air Force:

 

"-25MM Target Practice (TP), PGU-23/U (A978): 25MM PGU-23 is a target practice round used in the GAU-12/A gun systems applicable to the F-35 and AC-130/U aircraft. The round is also a kinetic energy combat round used to limit collateral damage potential. Air Force procures 25MM through the Single Manager for Conventional Ammunition (SMCA), Department of the Army. "

 

There is a newer PGU-33 caliber:

25mm PGU-33/U TPF-T Target Practice Frangible-Tracer (gd-ots.com)

"The 25mm PGU-33/U TPF-T replaces the standard steel PGU- 23/B TP. It is compatible with the NATO 25mm gun systems and is a ballistic match to the PGU- 32/U Semi-Armor Piercing High Explosive Incendiary- Tracer and the PGU-20/U API combat cartridges."

 

And the old one is TP (PGU-23) Target Practice (globalsecurity.org)

"The PGU-23 TP is a low-cost, untraced target practice cartridge, ballistically matched to the PGU-25 HEI round. It complies with NATO STANAG 4173 and can be fired from any system using the M242, KBA, M811, or GAU-12 weapon."

 

 

And then about other kind ammunition in PDF: 108104_04.qxp (alternatewars.com)

 

So simply put, the Training Practice shells are ballistically same as the combat ammunition, so not going to cause wider spread because of that.

And again it would be completely illogical to use a training rounds that does not allow pilot to hit where aimed, rendering the whole exercise moot as what matters is the hits, not where a gun cam shows.

 

The TP round is not just for a training, it is as well for a combat use, to minimize the collateral damage. So you are not going to put for a such task a round that will spread wider area if you are trying to avoid collateral damage.

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Those specs for the accuracy GAU-12, do they include the mounts? The A-10s gun mount is possibly the most rigid and sturdy there is, whereas I can bet there is a bit more shaking going on when firing the podded GAU-12 mounted on the belly of the relatively light Harrier airframe.

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