Sensation of speed in VR

[etienne1968]

23 minutes ago, nessuno0505 said:

Maybe it's just a matter of frame rate: neither a 9900K+3090 can render DCS VR with a reverb at a decent frame rate, FS2 is a lot more simple simulator. Maybe you see stutter and you say speed is not right. Look at some DCS low-level flying on a monitor in a youtube video (there are plenty of them): when I do it I see a super-fast, super smooth speed sensation, something far away from what I can achieve in VR with my 2070 and Rift s. It's not a problem of software coding, IMHO, it's a problem of frame rate: in VR it's impossible to achieve. I plan to buy a 3080 (if it will be available in stores, sooner or later I hope) and keep my Rift s, to see if I can reach in VR a frame rate close to those flat screen youtube videos. With a reverb, I just think it's impossible.

I agree with you 100%, FS2 is in no way a competitor on the hardcore military flight simulation market. By mentionning FS2, I was just willing to give some pointers on this very topic related to the sensation of speed. My rig is up to date and is giving satisfaction (RTX3090/I9 9900K combo) with no stutters at all except when you overfly multiple ground explosions after a bombing run. I see no ghosting, and framerate is more than decent with STEAM supersampling at 140%, MSAA 4x. but definitely, sensation of speed is the frustating point on my side.

 

3 minutes ago, Xilon_x said:

F16 low flight hight speed 

 

Yeaaaah man !!! That's it... Thanks for showing the real life as it is and as it is missing in DCS VR. One day hopefully 

[Xilon_x]

sorry to the DCS community for posting a video that has nothing to do with dcs.

Looking at Fs2 I noticed a slight fluidity but it has nothing to do with DCS which is completely superior in graphics.

The simulation reality in giving that feeling of speed has yet to reach perfection we must hope for the future.

 

 

Edited January 31, 2021 by Xilon_x

[etienne1968]

3 minutes ago, Xilon_x said:

sorry to the DCS community for posting a video that has nothing to do with dcs.

Looking at Fs2 I noticed a slight flow but it has nothing to do with DCS which is completely superior in graphics.

The simulation reality in giving that feeling of speed has yet to reach perfection we must hope for the future.

 

 

One thing to add is that VULKAN API is involved in FS2 VR graphics rendition...

[Expert]

2 hours ago, Taz1004 said:

Plus, I can change physical IPD of my Vive Pro from 60mm to 75mm.  Effectively changing Field of View angle.  I get very tunnel vision with 60mm but makes no difference to "sense" of speed.

Try a pimax and compare it to something with 90 of fov. Now imagine it in a low-flying flight. I believe that in this case the perception of speed changes but we are talking about an abysmal fov difference.

[Xilon_x]

10 minutes ago, Expert said:

Prova un pimax e confrontalo con qualcosa con 90 di fov. Ora immaginalo in un volo a bassa quota. Credo che in questo caso la percezione della velocità cambi ma stiamo parlando di una differenza di fov abissale.

 

yes it's true DCS with pimax it seems much faster.

 

 

 

[Expert]

2 hours ago, etienne1968 said:

So they know they have to boost the speed rendition to be more immersive, impressive and then realistic... 

..and therefore false. So let me understand something. We have for example the model of the F16 in scale right? now we have a scale runway, for ex. 3 km long. Now take this F16 and have it fly over the track at a speed of 600km/h. It will take 18 seconds to fly over it, because time is given by space divided by speed. These are the fundamental mathematical laws to be respected to talk about realism.
If on a sim you fly over the same runway (same scale) in 18 seconds but one gives you a different perception of speed this depends only on two things:
Level of detail.
Fov.

ED cant change nothing else i think. 

Edited January 31, 2021 by Expert

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, etienne1968 said:

See no offence buddy but this topic makes sense to me and is not as irrelevant as you think. Disregard the topic if it is bothering you in any way. I respect your opinion and therefore expect mine to be respected in return. One more time it is a true fact that the sensation of speed is realistically rendered flying Aerofly FS2 in VR, and this software it is way much less ambitious than DCS. And If you had read carefully my post, you would have noticed that I do not question the airspeed of the aircraft as a parameter itself... The sensation of speed is not properly rendered whatever the detail of clutter is displayed. And when I fly in VR with my HP reverb at a given FOV, with almost all sliders maxed out, boosted by my RTX3090/I9 9900K, I persist to say it is frustrating as we are so close to perfection.

No doubt soon or later, computer technology will be matching expectations with no compromise, unless it is already feasible today. Now if you are satisfied as it is, perfect enjoy.

I suspect that it’s impossible with a VR HMD to set the IPD exactly 100% correct. So you will always feel the world being out of scale or inaccurate even if in a very small way. I don’t see how ED can make up for that. If the aircraft travel the correct speed then that’s all they can provide. I know DCS VR is considered accurate enough for even real pilots to train at. There’s that example of them actually teaching AAR with it. 
So I’m not sure ED could understand what you are wanting them to do. 

[Mars Exulte]

IPD is the distance between your eyes, it definitely is possible to be within 1mm of correct with physical adjustment like some sets provide unless your head is weird. Ingame it's the distance between the two cameras representing your eyeballs and has little to no relevance to anything farther than arms length. Ideally the two should match.

 

Y'all are making this all sound a lot more complicated than it is.

[SharpeXB]

11 minutes ago, zhukov032186 said:

IPD is the distance between your eyes, it definitely is possible to be within 1mm of correct with physical adjustment

That would mean it’s still off by a mm. Hey that’s probably just fine for gaming. But if you’re going to be really picky about it, that means VR is always off by a tiny degree. 

[Taz1004]

2 hours ago, zhukov032186 said:

IPD is the distance between your eyes, it definitely is possible to be within 1mm of correct with physical adjustment like some sets provide unless your head is weird. Ingame it's the distance between the two cameras representing your eyeballs and has little to no relevance to anything farther than arms length. Ideally the two should match.

 

Y'all are making this all sound a lot more complicated than it is.

 

Vive Pro with lens mod eliminates sweet spots.  So you can increase its IPD to widen FOV.  Your eyes don't get crossed just because you increase IPD.  You're just looking straight through different parts of the lens.

So if someone with actual IPD of their eyes at 60mm, but increase Vive's physical IPD to 75mm, is actually greatly increasing the FOV.  Or if you decrease it, you get tunnel vision.  But no difference in sense of speed.

 

If you increase in-game IPD, that's different story since you're spreading the in-game left and right camera apart.  Effectively making your in-game head bigger.  Which in relation makes the world smaller.  Which would decrease sense of speed.

Edited January 31, 2021 by Taz1004

[Taz1004]

3 hours ago, Expert said:

Try a pimax and compare it to something with 90 of fov. Now imagine it in a low-flying flight. I believe that in this case the perception of speed changes but we are talking about an abysmal fov difference.

 

I'd love to try it if you send me a pimax.   But even with Vive, I can vary between +/- 30' of FOV.

Edited January 31, 2021 by Taz1004

[Qiou87]

Just wanted to contribute my 2 cents to this very interesting topic (thank you etienne for starting this discussion): I recently changed hardware and managed to increase my fps from 40 to 80fps in the Rift S, at least when flying in single player. The added smoothness really did improve my sensation of speed in the Viggen, one of those aircraft where you probably would feel it the most as its entire mission is "low and fast". However I do move my head around quite a lot to notice the terrain around me moving so fast, due to the restricted FOV. Lack of visual reference on the ground in Caucasus or Nevada does hurt this feeling however, which is not really "right" outside of high-details maps like PG or Syria. However getting rid of reprojection definitely helped with my feeling of speed.

[Expert]

Guys you are missing the purpose of the discussion. etienne is asking ED to artificially increase the "sense of speed", but this is not possible if realism is to be maintained.

[Mars Exulte]

58 minutes ago, Expert said:

Guys you are missing the purpose of the discussion. etienne is asking ED to artificially increase the "sense of speed", but this is not possible if realism is to be maintained.

 

  Nobody's missing it, we're just ignoring it lol

 

  I guess we could add a lot of exaggerated motion blur, streaking lines racing past your view, double/triple the numbers on the HUD and party like it's 1999 again!

[nessuno0505]

I would not say Xylon_X real life video seems so much "faster" than dcs, it seems a lot "smoother".

[Expert]

On 1/31/2021 at 10:19 AM, etienne1968 said:

Hi ED,

First and foremost congrats for bringing to military flight simulation enthusiasts such a high level product. The only thing I’d like to report is lack of realism regarding the sensation of speed in VR. I already read some related posts on this forum and some users were not sharing this point of view, pleading it’s a subjective opinion, depending on the FOV and bla bla bla... why such a denial about this true fact ? The point here is not to criticize, nor blame anyone... I guess that DCS community is willing to practice flight simulation in such a manner they are getting close to reality, otherwise video games are available on the market. Reading this forum let me think people are expecting if not a study level flight simulator, at least a very realistic weaponry and onboard systems rendering. Then the visual environment is part of the immersion and especially when it comes to the sensation of speed a low altitude. In real life I fly a liner, and when I’m cleared for a case I type visual approach, I can certify that my downwind leg at 220 knots/ 1500ft is showing something similar to 450kt in DCS. It’s quite a bit frustrating if it is something a good coder could modify in DCS. Some people could argue again it’s my personal opinion as they are amply satisfied as it is. But objectively, a great deal of my friends, actual fighter pilots, flying French  Mirage 2000 and Rafale, are amazed by DCS and commonly say this software is unbelievably close to the real world, except for the sensation of speed totally underestimated. And to give a good point of reference, they say it should be doubled. Some of these fellow fighters are even part of a team using DCS in VR for professional training in the Air Force. I was just willing to humbly share my frustration, thinking DCS is so close to perfection...

regards

Look, i found a video with a huge sense of speed

 

Edited March 8, 2021 by Expert

[DD_Fenrir]

Amazing what a 180° FoV will do.

 

 

[Enduro14]

Agree to the OP, the sense of speed is a bit of a yawn fest in dcs.  

[Expert]

9 hours ago, DD_Fenrir said:

Amazing what a 180° FoV will do.

 

 

This is proof that the fov along with the details is one of the main factors in giving the sense of speed.

9 hours ago, Enduro14 said:

Agree to the OP, the sense of speed is a bit of a yawn fest in dcs.  

They cannot increase the speed by chance.

[Lange_666]

14 hours ago, DD_Fenrir said:

Amazing what a 180° FoV will do.

 

This !!

The moment you increase your FOV, you'll get the speed you want.

[El Chapo]

Interesting topic here... 

I believe that, as its name implies, speed sensation is a... sensation. 

 

You have all experienced before what happens when you drive at 50 km/h, then 130, than back to 50.

Speed seems much lower when you return to 50 km/h than it was initially. It is a well known danger for young drivers. 

 

Same exists for airplanes. 

When you make a high/low profile, coming from 10000ft/450 kt to 500ft/450kt will give you a great impression of speed. 

Then go to 250ft/540kt for a while... And back to 500ft/450kt... 

You will feel like you're flying sooo slowly now. 

 

Speed feeling is at its best when you are close to the sea/ground and to the clouds.

 

As a former high performance aircraft pilot flying DCS in VR, I will not complain about a lack of speed sensation. 

On the contrary. The other day I flew back to the boat at 50ft/540kt, it was much like in the real thing: a thrilling and enjoyable experience! 

 

Edited March 7, 2021 by Габихан

[zb2oby]

Old subject but not really convinced by responses here.

How to explain that the sensation of speed is far better in MSFS with same rig,  same FOV, same IPD, same FPS, more or less same LOD ?

[Crash *]

I think that the answers from 2 years ago are still correct.

It is possible that the level of detail of the route flown in MSFS is higher and therefore there is a better feeling of speed.

I hope that the standard FOV of most VR goggles will eventually be 180 degrees or more as technology advances.

Then the feeling of speed will be more in line with the real feeling than it is at the moment. Increasing ground detail and smoother movement will do the trick.

Then we will only complain about the lack of G-forces in our own bodies.

Let's see what it looks like in 2030. 

[draconus]

3 hours ago, zb2oby said:

How to explain that the sensation of speed is far better in MSFS with same rig,  same FOV, same IPD, same FPS, more or less same LOD ?

You also need the same aircraft, fly the same speed and alt, in the same place, detailed exactly the same.

[SharpeXB]

This topic is like asking if a PC racing game as the same “sensation of driving” as a real car… clearly not. Isn’t that obvious?