missing track file Weapon Questions

[Caldera]

Hey all;

 

Some some weird things are happening with my Mavericks (AGM-65D) and Laser Guide Rockets (M282L).  I can't figure out what it is that I am doing wrong.

 

Maverick???

 

 

It is a little hard to see on the Maverick screen (GIF).  The Maverick should be able to be locked on to the target.  I feel that this is a pretty good firing solution picture.  But, notice that big cross hairs are behind the screen and that the keyhole cross hairs are AWOL. 

 

This attempted Maverick shot is the second shot in my attack sequence.

 

I have repeated this sequence many times using Mavericks and it keeps happening to me.  The sequence is that at about 8 miles I fire a Maverick at my first target (Strella).  Then I make the TGP SOI.  I put the SPI on my second target (ZSU).  Next, I make the Maverick screen SOI.  I slave to SPI and the result is what you can see above.  It will not allow me to lock on the Maverick.  Some times it works as expected and some times I get this.

 

I have to fiddle around with it.  To get it to work I have been caging and then re-slaving the Maverick pipper.  By repeating that process a few times, I don't know why but it will just work again.  As you notice, the process takes longer than I want it to take and I get pretty close to my target.

 

I do know that something like this is supposed to happen if you attempt to lock on out of parameter.  But....

 

Laser Guided Rocket???

 

The problem I have been having has happened quite a few times.  I do not have pictures of this.

 

Ok, so the following is my attack sequence using a M282L.  I have a target locked up as SPI.  The TGP is staring straight the target as I am mostly wings level in my attack dive.  The laser is on and the L's are blinking.  I release a M282L at about 4.5nm.  It speeds away intent on destruction.  A few seconds later TGP rolls off target rapidly and I get a Gymbal Roll error.  Like I said, this has happened so many times to me that I half expect it to happen every time.  To make it worse, I rarely get a Gymbal Roll at any other time.  Annoying...

 

After Action Report???

 

I killed allot of stuff, but what is it?  These vehicles are mixed up in a bunch of trees and some buildings along a road.

 

What do the numbers in parentheses mean?  For example, one Mk 82 has (232) next to it.

 

Thank you in advance.

 

Caldera

 

 

 

 

[Bunny Clark]

3 hours ago, Caldera said:

But, notice that big cross hairs are behind the screen and that the keyhole cross hairs are AWOL. 

This is Brake Lock mode, it happens when the Mav can't get a solid track. To get out of it, go TMS Down to ground stabilize, then slew the crosshairs over the target and hit TMS Up. Part of the problem is likely that you're in wide FOV, the Mav tracks far more reliably in narrow FOV. 

 

3 hours ago, Caldera said:

A few seconds later TGP rolls off target rapidly and I get a Gymbal Roll error.  Like I said, this has happened so many times to me that I half expect it to happen every time.  To make it worse, I rarely get a Gymbal Roll at any other time.  

Yup, I have this problem too sometimes. I'm not entirely sure what causes it, something about the way the aircraft moves in the turn-in for the attack. I genberally don't have as much of a problem when making a straight-in attack run, but that's not very convenient. I usually don't launch the APKWS until about 3 miles, after which I'm generally past the point where this is most commonly a problem.

Edited January 31, 2021 by Bunny Clark
quotes acted dumb

[QuiGon]

I want to emphasis this part, as it is probably the root cause for your maverick issues:

  

5 hours ago, Bunny Clark said:

Part of the problem is likely that you're in wide FOV, the Mav tracks far more reliably in narrow FOV.

 

Use China Hat Fwd Short to toggle between wide and narrow FOVwhen MAV is SOI.

Edited January 31, 2021 by QuiGon

[silverdevil]

@Caldera - FOV (and zoom with TGP) affects targeting and improves as the target in either sensor becomes easier to "see". GR has videos where this is explained.

 

with rockets i get a good image on the target with TGP then start the roll in at about 7 miles. i calculate how to keep the TGP on target without being masked during my run, fire the rocket (reticle in HUD with target within circle), start the laser. i can get nearly perfect results. if you have a few targets you want to get on one run, fire a volley, wait two seconds, fire another volley. when first volley strikes first target, slew to next target and, even if moving, the second volley should strike the second target. it takes practice but it does work. GR also showed this tactic.

[Caldera]

Thanks,

 

Pretty sure I am using narrow FOV for the Maverick.  That generally is the first thing that I do when I start my attack sequence.  The first one goes off with out a hitch.

 

The Gymbal Roll is pretty weird, because it usually only happens during a hard maneuver.  This is not the case for rocket attacks.  I check to see if I have a good fixated view on target as I often adjust the TGP just prior to weapon release.  It is like the laser has some interaction that causes this to happen.

 

Thanks for the advice, I will keep trying.

 

Caldera

Edited January 31, 2021 by Caldera

[QuiGon]

3 hours ago, Caldera said:

Thanks,

 

Pretty sure I am using narrow FOV for the Maverick.  That generally is the first thing that I do when I start my attack sequence.  The first one goes off with out a hitch.

 

Alright then. I was wondering, because you're definitely not in narrow FOV in the screenshot you posted above.

Edited January 31, 2021 by QuiGon

[Caldera]

QuiGon;

 

Looks like you are right.  Maybe frustration took its toll and I switched it by mistake fiddling with it. 

 

The damn ZSU is sitting in the middle of a runway and Maverick can't find it?

 

Caldera

[Bunny Clark]

@CalderaYou need to change FOV with each Maverick, as the FOV setting is a physical lens move on the missile itself. So if you switch to Narrow, fire that missile, then bring up another it will be in Wide. 

[jasonbirder]

Quote

A few seconds later TGP rolls off target rapidly and I get a Gymbal Roll error. 

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than me can confirm this...I have a feeling the TGP can't track properly when it is sighted exactly along the line of the FPM...

I had a sequence of APKWS missed at first and I simply couldn't work out the root cause...

Howeverwhen I kept the FPM ABOVE the SPI on the tip on (or offset) I never experienced it...

Bear in mind I didn't test it, have no knowedge base to suggest it to others...BUT it solved my problems, they work for me now...I didn't look any deeper!

 

[Caldera]

5 hours ago, Bunny Clark said:

@CalderaYou need to change FOV with each Maverick, as the FOV setting is a physical lens move on the missile itself. So if you switch to Narrow, fire that missile, then bring up another it will be in Wide. 

 

Bunny;

 

Ok thanks, maybe that is it.  I assumed that the FOV was a SOI thing not a missile thing and I never noticed it in the heat of battle.

 

The flight manual is pretty unclear on this issue.  Also, in the quick fire videos I watched doing just that escaped my notice.

 

Jason;

 

Thanks, I will give that a try.

 

Caldera

Edited January 31, 2021 by Caldera

[Caldera]

Bunny,

 

8 hours ago, Bunny Clark said:

@CalderaYou need to change FOV with each Maverick, as the FOV setting is a physical lens move on the missile itself. So if you switch to Narrow, fire that missile, then bring up another it will be in Wide. 

 

Exactly what the doctor ordered.  I had no misses, no flubs or break lock modes.  Oh my!

 

As for the M282L, I am starting to think that switching to guns while the missile is is flight might have something to do with it.  I mean it seems logical to pursue the attack to its fullest. 

 

However, today I followed jason's advice about the TVV staying off target and I did not switch to guns while the missile was in flight.  Doing that, the TGP stayed locked on correctly.  I did more or less try to release the rocket with the target in the CCIP reticle.  I had no misses.

 

Any ideas about the pictures of the After Action Debriefing that I posted?

 

Caldera

[Emmy]

One thing I find helps is to work attacks using Markpoints wherever possible and prosecuting attacks in STPT Mode where you can just Slave All 

 

Relying on the TGP can be frustrating and disappointing if it Gimbal Rolls or jumps off the target at a critical point.

[Caldera]

Emmy,

 

Thanks!

 

Sorry, I can find no definition to STPT Mode in the Flight Manual nor really anywhere else for that matter.  There are references to STPT, but every one seems to know what it means except myself.   I can be a knucklehead most times.

 

Page 410:
NAV      STPT (DEFAULT)/TDC
GUNS   GUN SOLUTION (DEFAULT)/TDC/STPT
CCIP     CCIP SOLUTION (DEFAULT)/TDC/STPT
C-CCIP CCIP RETICLE (DEFAULT)
CCRP    STPT (DEFAULT)/TDC

A_A       STPT (DEFAULT)

 

It never says what STPT stands for.  I often wish that the manual was better.

 

Page 462: 

STR PT (Steer Point). The STR PT function ...

 

My assumption is that you mean Steerpoint and the acronym is STPT.  And that you are talking about creating a Mark Point for each target.  Then switch the AAP to MARK.  Then slave the Mavericks to the Steerpoint. 

 

Is that correct?

 

I have been trying to learn that sequence, but the dang Break Lock Mode kept getting in my way.  I was not changing the FOV for each Maverick I intended to fire and that hung me up.

 

Caldera

Edited February 2, 2021 by Caldera

[Emmy]

Yes, that is what I'm saying...

[Bunny Clark]

Yup, STPT is Steer Point. He's talking about creating mark points with TMS Right while looking through the TGP, then if you switch the SPI to STPT (TMS Down Long, it'll say STPT in the bottom left of the HUD) and then switch the STEER PT dial on the AAP to MARK you can scroll through all your mark points and attack them at will. 

 

It's an awesome way to employ JDAMs for sure, and it can be useful for GBUs too. I generally prefer to just use the TGP for Maverick and APKWS attacks though, and mark points are mostly useless for moving targets.

[Caldera]

Thanks!

 

That has been allot of help.

 

Caldera

[jaylw314]

On 1/31/2021 at 6:31 PM, Caldera said:

Bunny,

 

 

Exactly what the doctor ordered.  I had no misses, no flubs or break lock modes.  Oh my!

 

As for the M282L, I am starting to think that switching to guns while the missile is is flight might have something to do with it.  I mean it seems logical to pursue the attack to its fullest. 

 

However, today I followed jason's advice about the TVV staying off target and I did not switch to guns while the missile was in flight.  Doing that, the TGP stayed locked on correctly.  I did more or less try to release the rocket with the target in the CCIP reticle.  I had no misses.

 

Any ideas about the pictures of the After Action Debriefing that I posted?

 

Caldera

 

The TGP has a blind spot directly in front.  It's not at the TVV, which moves around, but it's fixed about 5 degrees below the boresight circle, which, not coincidentally, is about where you would place targets to fire the cannon at them.

 

A buddy suggested when using the TGP and rolling into the target, to roll in with the nose ABOVE the target area rather than THROUGH the target area (which is how I learned to roll out).  That way, when you roll out, the dead zone stays above the target.

 

It seems like a dumb design decision, they could have moved the gimbals to make the dead zone off to the side or something, but oh well.

[Caldera]

That might explain that...

 

I have noticed that the TGP will simply walk off the target at the weirdest times.  It seems to happen to me at the worst times.

 

Caldera