Jump to content

[ED CORE] Laser code should be zeroed out on Weight On Wheels.


Fri13
 Share

Recommended Posts

Reference:  A1-AV8BB-TAC-000 (pg. 1-200) ARBS Management.

 

Laser code is automatically zeroed by system after 5 seconds by Weight On Wheels sensor.

 

When Sensor Select Switch is pressed Aft the first DMT mode is ARBS/LST (Laser Spot Track) and then when second time pressed to Aft show the ARBS/TV. But the LST mode will come up only if a valid laser code has been entered. If the valid laser code is not entered then ARBS/LST is not available, and only the ARBS/TV.

 

Procedure would be that after take-off, pilot pulls SSS Aft once to ARBS/TV mode, box the CODE option and enters a valid laser code (like 1111). After entering valid laser code to system, the SSS Aft can bring the ARBS/LST up and pressing Aft multiple times will switch between ARBS/LST and ARBS/TV.

After take-off when the DMT is selected the laser code should be zero as empty and not 1111 as that is a valid laser code.

 

Notice: It is not reset to 1111 but zeroed out, as empty (or possibly 0 or 0000). After reset there shouldn't be any valid laser codes.

 

When WOW sensor is off (aircraft is airborne) the OSB button for CODE entry will show previous code on scratchpad, if any.

Meaning that after take-off it should be empty/zeroed. And require to input any valid laser code to show it there and get the ARBS/LST show up.

After first time valid laser code has been input, then boxing the CODE will show the previous entered valid code (after take-off).

 

Question: Should the aircraft accept a laser code after WOW has triggered lase code zeroed out 5 seconds of activation (landing, start-up) or does the WOW deny the laser code entry or zero it out 5 seconds after entering new as long WOW sensor is active?

 

The valid laser codes are:

1

1-7

1-8

1-8

 

Problems:

 

  • In AV-8B Harrier the laser code is not zeroed out when Weight On Wheels trigger is active.
  • The aircraft maintains a valid laser code (1111) constantly.
  • The aircraft accepts new laser codes while Weight On Wheels sensor is active.
  • The ARBS/LST mode can be activated on the ground.

 


Edited by Fri13
  • Like 1

i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S.

i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, lukeXIII said:

From the same manual: "After landing the laser code is set to the default code (1111). This occurs five seconds after a weight-on-wheels transition is detected."

 

It's possible that 1111 is the "zeroed" value.

 

Where it is said?

Edit: Page 2-164

 

As the page I refer says that 1111 is valid laser code for designation. And that valid laser codes are "zeroed out" on WOW.

It as well clearly say that if there is no valid laser code, then ARBS/LST is not available, and that scratchpad can show that there is no code if selected to enter a code because it has been zeroed out (if there is a valid code, then that laser code is shown).

 

 


Edited by Fri13

i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S.

i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The magic number 1111 is mentioned in two places in TAC-000.2002:

  • Page 2-164, which is about is about LMAV codes and the SMS, not ARBS/LST. Nothing about "zeroed" codes, mentions that 1111 is the "default" code.
  • Page 1-392, which is about TPOD. Nothing about "zeroed" codes here either, 1111 is the "default" code upon pod power-up. Nothing about W-on-W logic.

The wording in the TPOD section suggests that neither TPOD nor LMAV can have their codes unset so they default to 1111. Meanwhile, the aircraft itself can have a "zeroed" code, and the scratchpad should be empty ("previous code, if any, will be displayed") in that case.

 

I'm suggesting that the following is the most likely logic:

  • LMAV has its own code, which defaults to 1111 on startup and when transitioning to W-on-W.
  • TPOD has its own code, which defaults to 1111 on pod power-up. SMEs can hopefully shed light on the W-on-W logic, but remembering the last code should be assumed otherwise.
  • The aircraft/ARBS has its own code, which defaults to blank on startup and when transitioning to W-on-W. When a code is set, it is also copied to the LMAV and TPOD codes, respectively. If Sensor Select Aft is actuated while the code is blank/zeroed, the MPCD should go directly to TV, skipping LST.

Edited by andyn
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, andyn said:

The magic number 1111 is mentioned in two places in TAC-000.2002:

  • Page 2-164, which is about is about LMAV codes and the SMS, not ARBS/LST. Nothing about "zeroed" codes, mentions that 1111 is the "default" code.
  • Page 1-392, which is about TPOD. Nothing about "zeroed" codes here either, 1111 is the "default" code upon pod power-up. Nothing about W-on-W logic.

The wording in the TPOD section suggests that neither TPOD nor LMAV can have their codes unset so they default to 1111. Meanwhile, the aircraft itself can have a "zeroed" code, and the scratchpad should be empty ("previous code, if any, will be displayed") in that case.

 

That is about how I do get it. As the manual explains that if there is no code then ARBS/LST is not available and it is skipped to ARBS/TV mode. And that on WOW trigger it is specifically used word "zeroed" instead "reset to default" that would then make sense if there would always be a 1111 code in the system when starting aircraft, when landing and when taking-off and that 1111 code would be the "zeroed" meaning that if your system is in 1111 code then ARBS/LST wouldn't work. But it would mean that 1111 is not a valid laser code, and so on listed 1, 1-7, 1-8, 1-8 valid codes wouldn't include possibility for 1111.

 

 

5 hours ago, andyn said:

I'm suggesting that the following is the most likely logic:

  • LMAV has its own code, which defaults to 1111 on startup and when transitioning to W-on-W.
  • TPOD has its own code, which defaults to 1111 on pod power-up. SMEs can hopefully shed light on the W-on-W logic, but remembering the last code should be assumed otherwise.
  • The aircraft/ARBS has its own code, which defaults to blank on startup and when transitioning to W-on-W. When a code is set, it is also copied to the LMAV and TPOD codes, respectively. If Sensor Select Aft is actuated while the code is blank/zeroed, the MPCD should go directly to TV, skipping LST.

 

Yes that is what I get from the manual. But it is challenging when one part of the manual say A is B and other part say A is X and if X exists then Y is not possible.

It can be a part of the old manual that just wasn't updated properly, but when one manual is still for Day-time, Night-Attack and Radar variant then it is fairly complex to start with.

 

The problem here is that if the systems would always default to 1111 from the start-up, powering individual systems or when landing, then why to even claim that proper code needs to be inputted to the system IF there is none - as there couldn't be scenario where there isn't one. And when 1111 is a proper/valid laser code, why to even explain that ARBS/LST is not available if no valid laser code is in the DMT system as there can't be a scenario where there wouldn't be one.

 The laser energy power is tied to the used laser code, the 1111 code is the most powerful laser energy you can have (and use most amount of battery from the designator) and so on 1788 is the least power required code and least successful for the targeting and spotting because highest PRF.

 

 

 

i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S.

i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Fri13 said:

That is about how I do get it. As the manual explains that if there is no code then ARBS/LST is not available and it is skipped to ARBS/TV mode.

 

That's what TAC-000 says and what I and you in your original post pointed out, indeed.

 

Quote

And that on WOW trigger it is specifically used word "zeroed" instead "reset to default" that would then make sense if there would always be a 1111 code in the system when starting aircraft, when landing and when taking-off and that 1111 code would be the "zeroed" meaning that if your system is in 1111 code then ARBS/LST wouldn't work. But it would mean that 1111 is not a valid laser code, and so on listed 1, 1-7, 1-8, 1-8 valid codes wouldn't include possibility for 1111.

 

Sorry, I don't quite follow you. The manual specifically used the word "zeroed" in the context of ARBS/DMT/LST. If a code has not been entered or it has been zeroed, LST is not available. 1111 is the default only for external hardpoints, i.e. TPOD and LMAVs, and the code is valid regardless whether it's in the missile seeker by default or if it has been entered. Furthermore, the codes are not bidirectionally linked. Setting the AC/system/ARBS/DMT/LST (or whatever you want to call it) code manually propagates it to the hardpoints, not in the other direction.

 

Quote

Yes that is what I get from the manual. But it is challenging when one part of the manual say A is B and other part say A is X and if X exists then Y is not possible.

It can be a part of the old manual that just wasn't updated properly, but when one manual is still for Day-time, Night-Attack and Radar variant then it is fairly complex to start with.

 

The problem here is that if the systems would always default to 1111 from the start-up, powering individual systems or when landing, then why to even claim that proper code needs to be inputted to the system IF there is none - as there couldn't be scenario where there isn't one. And when 1111 is a proper/valid laser code, why to even explain that ARBS/LST is not available if no valid laser code is in the DMT system as there can't be a scenario where there wouldn't be one.

 

There is no problem here. Do read the pages 1-200, 1-392, 2-164. Check what part of the manual you are reading and what subsystems the information pertains to. Formulate the logic on paper if you're confused.

 

Quote

The laser energy power is tied to the used laser code, the 1111 code is the most powerful laser energy you can have (and use most amount of battery from the designator) and so on 1788 is the least power required code and least successful for the targeting and spotting because highest PRF.

 

Oversimplifying, wrong (highest PRI, not PRF), and also not pertinent to this topic.


Edited by andyn
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Passing this onto the devs to have a looksie, also going to pass this to ED because if laser power is related to laser code then this might be useful in addressing any laser right now in game which is AFAIK limited to 8NM to simulate laser weakness over greater ranges. Excellent work people, I look forward to discussing this further.

 

However that was a feature of a pre- 2002 jet so laser code no longer zeros out with WoW. Will adjust if necessary.

 


Edited by RAZBAM_ELMO

Know and use all the capabilities in your airplane. If you don't, sooner or later, some guy who does use them all will kick your ass.

 

— Dave 'Preacher' Pace, USN.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • RAZBAM_ELMO changed the title to [INVESTIGATING] Laser code should be zeroed out on Weight On Wheels.
16 hours ago, RAZBAM_ELMO said:

Passing this onto the devs to have a looksie, also going to pass this to ED because if laser power is related to laser code then this might be useful in addressing any laser right now in game which is AFAIK limited to 8NM to simulate laser weakness over greater ranges.

 

There is a laser designator manuals for their operation. It includes ranges and powers, as well reflection powers for different surfaces. Example a shiny metal surfaces like car has very directive reflection, where trees leaves  are very reflective to all directions and military painted vehicles like tanks are very suppressive, even fully suppressive when using camouflage nets.

 

Example the mule designator that I believe is used for JTAC vehicles in DCS because it portability, has maximum designator range of 3.5 km and that is only to have 5 min battery power. That 3.5 km range is then divided with the material that is being painted, so power goes very small for laser seekers to lock on.

 

This simply mean that one needs to get bomb dropped already very close to the target to give it time get there, and mavericks requires to get to very close range.

As well the laser designators should trigger laser energy detectors in tanks, so they know direction where it is coming and then use smoke to counter lasers and escape the area. Why you would keep laser spot pointing elsewhere until to final seconds and only then move it on target to finalize guidance.

 

But these are anyways requiring redesign of laser pointer and vehicles modeling, as right now we can even designate target from opposite side of the vehicle and seeker still see it. As the direction, distance to target from seeker and designator and material easily drops the engagement ranges to few kilometers, not even 4-8 nmi.

 

Why it is important that laser codes used for targets and areas is properly decided at the higher level that allocate codes use in operations.

 

This is what makes it strange that laser is reset to most powerful one by default.

i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S.

i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So in talking with the devs this is not something we have control over. Its a DCS core thing. However we did open a discussion with ED as to the implementation of laser logic so at this point it would be up to then to improve laser logic or to leave as is unfortunately. Marking as ED CORE and moving to RESOLVED.

Know and use all the capabilities in your airplane. If you don't, sooner or later, some guy who does use them all will kick your ass.

 

— Dave 'Preacher' Pace, USN.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • RAZBAM_ELMO changed the title to [ED CORE] Laser code should be zeroed out on Weight On Wheels.
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...