investigating USB Issue with 9 or more devices connected

[Flappie]

Interesting. Are all of you guys using USB hubs?

[JimC]

Hi Flappie,

No not using USB Hubs, all controllers direct to M/Board and a good quality USB Card installed on M/board, all working fine.

 

Have Winwing HOTAS (3 x USBs) Logitech Rudder Pedals (1 x USBs) all connected to M/board. 

IR Track (1 x USBs) Headphones (1 x USBs) connected to M/board headers front of case.

Also I have a 5 port USB card on M/board, this has Logitech Throttles x 4 (4 x USBs).

 

Edited January 15, 2021 by JimC

[Flappie]

New testimony here.

[SouthernChap]

Any news on this?

[Flappie]

We'll see if today's open beta patch fixes this issue.

[Sarge_DL]

Moved. (Thanks)

Edited January 27, 2021 by Sarge_DL

[Flappie]

Hi @Sarge_DL. Please start a new thread, because this one is specifically about peripherals blocking DCS startup.

I'll try my best to help you with your issue.

[syff]

Was not fixed for me with the rescent update 60645

Edited January 28, 2021 by syff

[Flappie]

@BIGNEWYCan you please tell us if devs were able to reprodce this bug? Apparently, all it takes is plugging more than 9 USB peripherals before DCS is launched.

[BIGNEWY]

Hi all, 

 

Sorry I have no update for you on this issue, I will speak with the dev team. 

 

thansk

[SouthernChap]

Okay, did a little more digging, just to confirm my suspicions. 

 

I unhooked my Azeron keypad (3 devices) and uninstalled OpenTrack (1 device called 'TrackIR')

 

That left me with 8 devices in total.  We can see this here in this snippet from the log:

 

2021-01-31 19:59:00.558 INFO    INPUT: Device [Keyboard] created deviceId = -1
2021-01-31 19:59:00.565 INFO    INPUT: Device [VPC Rudder Pedals {FE77EA30-F9B1-11e9-8001-444553540000}] created deviceId = -1
2021-01-31 19:59:00.565 INFO    INPUT: Joystick created[VPC Rudder Pedals {FE77EA30-F9B1-11e9-8001-444553540000}], ForceFeedBack: no
2021-01-31 19:59:00.571 INFO    INPUT: Device [VPC Throttle MT-50 {DFF49E80-F9B8-11e9-8001-444553540000}] created deviceId = -1
2021-01-31 19:59:00.571 INFO    INPUT: Joystick created[VPC Throttle MT-50 {DFF49E80-F9B8-11e9-8001-444553540000}], ForceFeedBack: no
2021-01-31 19:59:00.574 INFO    INPUT: Device [VPC Throttle MT-50 {B04DDD60-FA88-11e9-8001-444553540000}] created deviceId = -1
2021-01-31 19:59:00.574 INFO    INPUT: Joystick created[VPC Throttle MT-50 {B04DDD60-FA88-11e9-8001-444553540000}], ForceFeedBack: no
2021-01-31 19:59:00.576 INFO    INPUT: Device [VPC Throttle MT-50 {B04E0470-FA88-11e9-8002-444553540000}] created deviceId = -1
2021-01-31 19:59:00.576 INFO    INPUT: Joystick created[VPC Throttle MT-50 {B04E0470-FA88-11e9-8002-444553540000}], ForceFeedBack: no
2021-01-31 19:59:00.580 INFO    INPUT: Device [ VKBsim Gunfighter MCG Ultimate Twist  {72F317C0-5692-11eb-8001-444553540000}] created deviceId = -1
2021-01-31 19:59:00.580 INFO    INPUT: Joystick created[ VKBsim Gunfighter MCG Ultimate Twist  {72F317C0-5692-11eb-8001-444553540000}], ForceFeedBack: no
2021-01-31 19:59:00.595 INFO    INPUT: Device [BU0836X Interface {FEF009B0-174F-11e9-8005-444553540000}] created deviceId = -1
2021-01-31 19:59:00.595 INFO    INPUT: Joystick created[BU0836X Interface {FEF009B0-174F-11e9-8005-444553540000}], ForceFeedBack: no
2021-01-31 19:59:00.600 INFO    INPUT: Device [Mouse] created deviceId = -1

 

But DCS still fails to start with the same error (as it does with any of the below failures):

 

2021-01-31 20:16:07.426 ALERT   Dispatcher: Error starting Game GUI: [string "./Scripts/Input\Utils.lua"]:52: invalid order function for sorting

 

1. Okay so I unplugged my BU0836X based button box (1 device), that leaves us with 5 'joystick' devices.
2. Still failing.
3. So I unplugged my rudder pedals which leaves us with four devices.
4. DCS GUI loads up.  Success. So is it just four 'joystick' devices that's the maximum that works?
5. No.  I unplugged my stick (1 device) and plugged back in my pedals (1 device) and my button box (1 device) to bring the total back up to 5.
6. DCS GUI loads up.  
7. I then plug my stick back in and try again
8. DCS GUI loads up.  
9. I then restart my pc
10. DCS fails to load.
11. Unplug button box
12. Fails
13. Unplug Pedals
14. DCS GUI loads up.  
15. Replug pedals 
16. DCS GUI loads up.  

 

What the hell?

 

Okay, so I actually haven't been paying attention to where I'm unplugging and replugging devices.

 

1. So I then move my mouse and keyboard off the powered USB hub, plug my keyboard direct into one of the MB ports, plug my mouse into the keyboard USB port.
2. Move all my flight stuff so that they're next to each other in the powered usb hub and in the 'correct' order (stick, throttle, pedals, button box; no, of course this doesn't matter but it is tidy).
3. DCS GUI loads up.
4. Close DCS down and try again
5. DCS GUI loads up.
6. Restart PC
7. Try again.
8. DCS loads up.
9. Bind axes plus thrust.
10. Free flight, all works well (apart from my usual clumsy flying of course ).
11. Restart PC
12. Try again
13. DCS loads up
14. Try free flight: axes I bound are still working.

 

So yeah, the problem isn't the number of devices or number of 'joystick' devices. It's something much less obvious (to me at least).  It seems to be working for me at the moment but I'd not bet any money on this continuing.  I'm now terrified of plugging anything else back in!

 

Hopefully the above will spark some thought in one of your clever devs and it'll get fixed.

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by SouthernChap
typo

[Mustang25]

Hey @Flappie I totally missed this thread and just now found it!

 

So I tried starting up DCS with the specific controller that was producing the error unplugged and it went to the main menu just fine. So I still have more than 9 devices connected and it seems to just really not like that one specific device.

 

To add on, this only happens when I have the TrackIR software running before starting DCS. If I run DCS first, I can start TrackIR when I get to the main menu and cycle my devices.

[Sacarino111]

On 1/28/2021 at 6:19 PM, Flappie said:

@BIGNEWYCan you please tell us if devs were able to reprodce this bug? Apparently, all it takes is plugging more than 9 USB peripherals before DCS is launched.

HI.

Don t think it has to do with the number. I have 10 joys plugged, 6 of them with the same name (so from time to time windows shuffles them, but got the workaround), plus TRir, mouse and KB. Must be some incompatibility with VR virtual controls, or Vjoy or similar.

Saludos.

Saca111

8 minutes ago, Mustang25 said:

Hey @Flappie I totally missed this thread and just now found it!

 

So I tried starting up DCS with the specific controller that was producing the error unplugged and it went to the main menu just fine. So I still have more than 9 devices connected and it seems to just really not like that one specific device.

 

To add on, this only happens when I have the TrackIR software running before starting DCS. If I run DCS first, I can start TrackIR when I get to the main menu and cycle my devices.

HI. How do you "cycle your devices"? If I start TrIr after DCS, it won't be recognised.

Thanks.

Saca111

[Mustang25]

2 hours ago, Sacarino111 said:

HI. How do you "cycle your devices"? If I start TrIr after DCS, it won't be recognised.

 

I just unplug and replug one of my USB devices. It works as long as you have hotplugging still enabled.

[Sacarino111]

15 hours ago, Mustang25 said:

 

I just unplug and replug one of my USB devices. It works as long as you have hotplugging still enabled.

Aha, thanks. One more question: "hotplugging still enabled" is an option inside DCS or is it PC related. Sorry for so much questions, but  my PC is in Spanish, so maybe the tranlsation confuses me.

Thanks again.

Saludos.

Saca111

[Flappie]

Hotplug device detection is ON by default. If you need to turn it off for some reason, here's how to do it.

 

And if you want to know hotplug device detection status, read the first lines of our dcs.log file ( C:\Users\sername\Saved Games\DCS...\Logs\dcs.log ).

 

The presence of the third line (Device hotplug disabled!) speaks for itself. You won't see it if device hotplug is enabled.

2021-01-29 18:38:08.301 INFO    DCS: CPU cores: 12, threads: 24, System RAM: 32678 MB, Pagefile: 32768 MB
2021-01-29 18:38:08.412 INFO    EDCORE: (dDispatcher)enterToState_:0
2021-01-29 18:38:08.422 INFO    DCS: Device hotplug disabled!

 

[Sacarino111]

6 hours ago, Flappie said:

Hotplug device detection is ON by default. If you need to turn it off for some reason, here's how to do it.

 

And if you want to know hotplug device detection status, read the first lines of our dcs.log file ( C:\Users\sername\Saved Games\DCS...\Logs\dcs.log ).

 

The presence of the third line (Device hotplug disabled!) speaks for itself. You won't see it if device hotplug is enabled.

2021-01-29 18:38:08.301 INFO    DCS: CPU cores: 12, threads: 24, System RAM: 32678 MB, Pagefile: 32768 MB
2021-01-29 18:38:08.412 INFO    EDCORE: (dDispatcher)enterToState_:0
2021-01-29 18:38:08.422 INFO    DCS: Device hotplug disabled!

 

Wow, thanks mate! will check it!

[syff]

Still no fix with the latest beta 60966.

I always have to climb behind my rig and disconnect most usb-devices start DCS and turn back things on. This is getting annoying

[Foka1]

I think it would be helpful to list devices you have. Since for some of you guys its not numberof devices butsomething else.

[syff]

22 hours ago, P61 said:

I think it would be helpful to list devices you have. Since for some of you guys its not numberof devices butsomething else.

You are absolutely right: I`ve tested with the following result:

I have a hub connected with 5 saitek panels (3 throttles, a radio panel and the multi panel)

 

DCS seems to conflict on startup with those 3 saitek pro flight throttles. If I only disconnect only one of them, DCS starts up. The other devices does not cause any problems.

While testing, I tried to delete the joystick-configs as well - unfortunately a fresh creation of the config luas were no solution.

The only possible startup is to go back to a very old release of DCS or to disconnect one of the saitek throttles ...

 

 

Edited February 14, 2021 by syff

[Foka1]

On 2/14/2021 at 1:28 PM, syff said:

You are absolutely right: I`ve tested with the following result:

I have a hub connected with 5 saitek panels (3 throttles, a radio panel and the multi panel)

 

DCS seems to conflict on startup with those 3 saitek pro flight throttles. If I only disconnect only one of them, DCS starts up. The other devices does not cause any problems.

While testing, I tried to delete the joystick-configs as well - unfortunately a fresh creation of the config luas were no solution.

The only possible startup is to go back to a very old release of DCS or to disconnect one of the saitek throttles ...

 

 

 

Hm.. Wait for upcoming update and check after it I would say. Also check if other simulators can handle those three quadrants at the same time or not. Maybe Saitek driver has some limitation or bug as well..

[syff]

21 hours ago, P61 said:

Hm.. Wait for upcoming update and check after it I would say. Also check if other simulators can handle those three quadrants at the same time or not. Maybe Saitek driver has some limitation or bug as well..

If this information is helpful to developers for investigation: other sim (MSFS, X-Plane) and also older versions of DCS (incl.  2.5.6.59398) no problem. The last driver-update for the saitek/logitech throttles is dated to 2018.

DCS 2.5.6.60966 tested (not fixed)

Edited February 16, 2021 by syff

[Osita]

I believe this problem may be hardware dependent and  could depend on what specific USB devices are connected (and how they identify themselves), your MoBo, RAM, CPU, quality of hubs and cables you use, plus whether the hubs are powered or not, and whether the power to the hub is actually working.

 

• I have 20 USB devices currently connected and they're all working fine. 17 of the devices are connected via daisychained T-LINK 7 port powered hubs, and 3 additional devices are plugged directly into the  rear USB ports. But I also have a PC that most would regard as "complete overkill", with a 1200w PSU and aggressive home-built cooling system, and I think the very high quality power supply and cooling probably make a big difference in reducing the chance of component failure.
   
• Another important thing you should know about is that if you daisychain your hubs, you must power them all independently, and make sure the distance between any individual hub is not more than 3m (cable length). If you nned more extension than that, you need to add additional powered hubs between to make sure no individual length in the chain is more than 3m. If you do this properly, and respect the power demands of doing it, you can connect dozens ofdevices through a single USB port on the back of your PC.
   
• If your devices drop out frequently then (in order) it is either that your PSU is not adequate, your MoBo is not adequate, your hubs aren't performing properly (drawing more power than is being supplied to them), circuit problem in a device, USB controller driver is not working properly.  For that last one, I have found I get more USB errors on my PC that has home edition of Win10 than I do on the PC with pro edition, so if you only have one PC then upgrading from home to pro *may* result in improvement (or may not). There are a lot of variables affecting USB connections and each system will have its own quirks. You'll normally see more problems with brand name computers than custom built ones, based on my experiences.
  
  
  
   

[SouthernChap]

13 minutes ago, Osita said:

I believe this problem may be hardware dependent and  could depend on what specific USB devices are connected (and how they identify themselves), your MoBo, RAM, CPU, quality of hubs and cables you use, plus whether the hubs are powered or not, and whether the power to the hub is actually working.

 

• I have 20 USB devices currently connected and they're all working fine. 17 of the devices are connected via daisychained T-LINK 7 port powered hubs, and 3 additional devices are plugged directly into the  rear USB ports. But I also have a PC that most would regard as "complete overkill", with a 1200w PSU and aggressive home-built cooling system, and I think the very high quality power supply and cooling probably make a big difference in reducing the chance of component failure.
   
• Another important thing you should know about is that if you daisychain your hubs, you must power them all independently, and make sure the distance between any individual hub is not more than 3m (cable length). If you nned more extension than that, you need to add additional powered hubs between to make sure no individual length in the chain is more than 3m. If you do this properly, and respect the power demands of doing it, you can connect dozens ofdevices through a single USB port on the back of your PC.
   
• If your devices drop out frequently then (in order) it is either that your PSU is not adequate, your MoBo is not adequate, your hubs aren't performing properly (drawing more power than is being supplied to them), circuit problem in a device, USB controller driver is not working properly.  For that last one, I have found I get more USB errors on my PC that has home edition of Win10 than I do on the PC with pro edition, so if you only have one PC then upgrading from home to pro *may* result in improvement (or may not). There are a lot of variables affecting USB connections and each system will have its own quirks. You'll normally see more problems with brand name computers than custom built ones, based on my experiences.
  
  
  
   

This may be a factor for some and certainly I resolved my problems initially by moving my Logitech lit keyboard and mouse to a MB port away from my powered USB hub but I was also able to resolve problems by 'un-splitting' my Virpil throttle from the three virtual devices (can split the Virpil throttle into three separate virtual devices via a Virpil software setting, so that no device has more than 32 digital binds, this is required for games using a legacy version of the DirectInput API, that can't see more than 32 bindable controls) before mucking around with where stuff was plugged in.

 

I think this is a complex one that's going to require either ED to have a eureka moment or some serious tedious mucking around with repro'ing the issue with lots of different peripheral setups by ED.  I don't envy them one little bit!

[Osita]

I agree with you about the difficulties that may lie ahead, and it sounds like this also will be something where Virpil will need to look at their own software as well. Obviously anything where we start messing around with "virtual devices" to make things do more than the original specifications of the hardware protocol intended, we're more likely to experience some problems. My own comments are more aimed at generic USB device issues where it's more related to power drain than software issues. Some of the TM components just have bad wiring because they've tried to make them too cheap. Virpil seems to be a bit more quality in the wiring and soldering. Logitec / Saitek = toys.