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Changing seat in multiplayer


haze1

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Yeah... I'm impressed by all these people that fly DCS with no compromises, and have such hardened opinions, for a game that they've presumably only played once, died, then never played again.

 

Literally everything you do in this game is compromises. To suggest that Jesters AI and interface will ever come close to the almost symbiotic relationship that a pilot and RIO can achieve is foolish. Surely allowing just the option for more discrete control is a compromise that leans towards reality more than the current implementation.

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51 minutes ago, draconus said:

But it's only about that - nothing else - just proper simulation, not more fake capabilities. You ask for something that was not possible IRL and that always raises opposition in a sim world.

 

Its perhaps worth separating out the parts of this that are a simulation and the parts that are a game.

 

The simulation parts are aircraft performance, missile performance, the world map, realistic physics (or at least, an approximation of them), in other words a lot of stuff that only exists within the game.

 

The game parts are everything else - the fact its rendered in 3D to a monitor or VR headset, the control inputs, the graphics settings.

 

I'm not asking for the F-14 to do mach 4 carrying 10 AIM-120s, thats definitely part of the simulation aspect. The F-14 has a known top speed, and a corner speed and a stall speed etc. And within the simulation i'd expect those to line up at least approximately.

 

As part of the game I get to play this in my pants and flip flops, in a comfortable seat, with a PC joystick none of that is realistic, nor does it have to be.

 

So we can all point to facts about the aircraft, point to the fact that its a simulation and argue we should lean on the side of realism, we all agree about that.

 

What we're clearly unable to negotiate is where the necessary compromises to the fact that it is a game should start and end. You could make a valid argument that Jester represents "fake capabilities" and require all players to have 2 human operators, we don't as a concession to playing the game.

 

So to try and take a different tack...what are you trying to protect? Is there a PVP aspect to the game you think would be compromised if the front-seater had a couple more direct options for radar control? Is that not balanced out by the fact that you've still got 1 human brain trying to operate a system that was clearly designed with 2 in mind?

 

To return to my LANTIRN analogy...it's a real juggling act trying to fly the aircraft while fiddling with the pod and then setting up an attack. Its way faster and more effective when I have a human RIO, but its possible to do in multiplayer when none is available. And that's my biggest point here - all I see is additional options to how we interact with the simulation, as somebody has pointed out, we are literally arguing over whether its more "realistic" to press 5 keys on a keyboard, than to press 2.

 

If realism is the be-all-end-all factor then we've already failed - real F-14s don't have keyboards.

 

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Die once and uninstall the game - only people that failed to understand what simulation is can come up with such argument. Of course what we have is not perfect but we strive to go deeper and further toward reality, not the other way in DCS, hence more and more detailed modules, world, combat, flight models, systems, crew, comms, you name it.

Sorry guys but Tomcat is 2 crew. If you hate Jester so much you're free to find and fly with a competent human RIO.

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I think there's just a lot of opposition to somebody coming along and announcing that there is only one allowable way to play the game, and I still think you're being highly selective in the arguments you answer, if you want to tie your position to realism in its most extreme sense then all they've done is point out a way in which you probably bend the rules because at the end of the day...its a game.

 

I also don't really see the point in prescribing to people how they should play the game, if there was the option to a) jump between seats b) bind all the buttons you want or c) just rely on jester d) only every play the F-14 in multiplayer with a friend.....well that seems like 4 completely valid ways to play. I don't see who has given you the authority to decide that 2 of those options are invalid and not allowed.

 

I've just decided its invalid to fly the F-14 with anything except the correct Virpil / VKB stick, all other inputs should be rejected by the game.

 

About the only people who really can prescribe how you can play the game is Heatblur / Eagle Dynamics, its their ball game. But thus far they've been open to reasonable input and criticism.

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1 hour ago, draconus said:

Die once and uninstall the game - only people that failed to understand what simulation is can come up with such argument. Of course what we have is not perfect but we strive to go deeper and further toward reality, not the other way in DCS, hence more and more detailed modules, world, combat, flight models, systems, crew, comms, you name it.

Sorry guys but Tomcat is 2 crew. If you hate Jester so much you're free to find and fly with a competent human RIO.

 

It's obvious from your first post that you're not even willing to consider compromise or start engaging in productive discussion, you essentially tried to shut this thread down in one word in the first response. Some people feel that there's additions that, on the face of it, have little technical blockers that would allow them to enjoy the game more without really hurting the balance of a game and ultimately would have no effect on you.

Your putdowns have been trying to dance some invisible line based on your opinion on what parts are simulation and what parts are a game with no real substance that backs anything up. This thread is not for you. These addition could be made, or not made, and if you ignored the changelog you'd have no idea. So feel free to move on.

 

For anyone that's interested I'm going to make a wee mod that will add some keybinds that allow you to move the radar elevation up and down - which is a particular pain point I've seen based on Jesters current implementation. I'll post in here when it's done.

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19 hours ago, AH_Solid_Snake said:

You are arguing against it in favour of apparently full on body swapping whereby the pilot can just swap minds with his RIO.

 

It’s heavily skewed by exactly what ‘realism’ means to you.

 

To be totally honest, I don't argue in favor of swapping minds with the RIO, because personally I would love to see the seat swap ability to be removed as well for the very same reason: It's terribly unrealistic.

 

I do understand though the need to make compromises for playability and that not everyone has the oportunity to fly with a human RIO. Hence I admit, that it is necessary to have the ability to swap seats inflight to get to use the RIO seat as a solo player, as it is part of the module you have paid for.

 

You talked about the difference between the game and the simulation before:

  

12 hours ago, AH_Solid_Snake said:

Its perhaps worth separating out the parts of this that are a simulation and the parts that are a game.

 

The simulation parts are aircraft performance, missile performance, the world map, realistic physics (or at least, an approximation of them), in other words a lot of stuff that only exists within the game.

 

The game parts are everything else - the fact its rendered in 3D to a monitor or VR headset, the control inputs, the graphics settings.

 

IMHO swapping seats is part of the game mechanics than using the backseat controls from the frontseat. Swapping seats is choosing the character you want to play (pilot or RIO), which is a game mechanic. Interfacing with the jet and using its systems is part of the simulation and as such it should not be possible to access the controls in a way that is totally impossible by the way the aircraft is designed, meaning you should not be able to access rear seat controls when playing the pilot character in the front seat.


Edited by QuiGon
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1 hour ago, QuiGon said:

  Interfacing with the jet and using its systems is part of the simulation and as such it should not be possible to access the controls in a way that is totally impossible by the way the aircraft is designed, meaning you should not be able to access rear seat controls when playing the pilot character in the front seat.

 

And this is where things get real interesting. A pilot and RIO builds a working relationship and understanding that will be extremely hard to mimic even by two players that train together in the F-14B and play together on a regular basis. When the Lantirn pod is fixed on the wrong target, the pilot would just mention "nope, the one next to it on the left". The RIO will immediately understand what he means and will make the adjustment in a matter of seconds. Unless there is a shortcut command to 'point' a Jester in the right direction to make adjustments, there is no way that instructing Jester through the comms menu is going to produce a response in the same amount of time.

The only way to achieve that reaction time and level of symbioses is either:

1.) Have a human that is always available when you fly, and train together for hours and hours to 'become one'; or

2.) Have direct shortcut commands to have Jester jump/snap between visible targets (in the Lantirn camera view) by pressing up/down/left/right to make it happen.

 

The likelihood of the majority of DCS F-14B owners to ever achieve option 1 is pretty low. The second option seems like a darn good comprise and possibly the most realistic one. I think that is what @AH_Solid_Snakeis trying to convey here. The simulation is still there; nothing is being broken. There is no magic @draconus; being able to convey an instruction to your WSO or RIO with a 'grunt and a sigh' is a reality that is hard to simulate. So until Jester is able to handle voice recognition and make a target adjustment in under two seconds without the pilot having to look for a command in a menu somewhere, the shortcut commands for rear seat functions is probably the way to go. 

 

If you disagree, please take the time to offer a solution on how you would implement this mechanic. We can argue about what is true and not, but let's get practical and find a solution instead. 


Edited by Warmbrak
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16 minutes ago, Warmbrak said:

 

And this is where things get real interesting. A pilot and RIO builds a working relationship and understanding that will be extremely hard to mimic even by two players that train together in the F-14B and play together on a regular basis. When the Lantirn pod is fixed on the wrong target, the pilot would just mention "nope, the one next to it on the left". The RIO will immediately understand what he means and will make the adjustment in a matter of seconds. Unless there is a shortcut command to 'point' a Jester in the right direction to make adjustments, there is no way that instructing Jester through the comms menu is going to produce a response in the same amount of time.

The only way to achieve that reaction time and level of symbioses is either:

1.) Have a human that is always available when you fly, and train together for hours and hours to 'become one'; or

2.) Have direct shortcut commands to have Jester jump/snap between visible targets (in the Lantirn camera view) by pressing up/down/left/right to make it happen.

 

I think it's a bit early to criticize Jesters ability to use LANTIRN already, before we even know how it will look like. I hope Heatblur does come up with a solution that makes Jester capable enough to use the LANTIRN in a meaningful way. Discussing it before we even know how it will work seems rather pointless.

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12 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

 

I think it's a bit early to criticize Jesters ability to use LANTIRN already, before we even know how it will look like. I hope Heatblur does come up with a solution that makes Jester capable enough to use the LANTIRN in a meaningful way. Discussing it before we even know how it will work seems rather pointless.

 

8 minutes ago, Warmbrak said:

Very true @QuiGon!

I think there is a fair bit of frustration amongst the Bombcat enthusiasts that have been waiting for this feature since the launch. As always, we just need to be patient and hope we live long enough to see these features in DCS.

 

Both quoted for truth.

 

I agree despite my misgivings about exactly how the LANTIRN integration with Jester will work that there's no point arguing over something that doesn't exist in a form we can see, its all guesswork.

 

We can however continue to discuss the radar implementation as apart from some small tweaks like adding the "next target" switch to the Jester menu to tweak your TWS tracks I think Heatblur consider that feature complete. Which still leaves a very simple pain in the neck with something as simple as antenna elevation. as @Warmbrakhas already mentioned I think the compromise of having some extra, admittedly not present in the jet, control for the pilot is a lot less aggravating than the multiple choice wheel we have just now and is not fundamentally (to me) different than the proposed solution of seat swapping in MP. 

 

As I've stated, I think seat swapping is the best, final, catch all solution for MP. But its currently technically infeasible at EDs end which is why I'd go for the compromise. I think Warmbrak did a pretty good job of jumping in and summarising my position but I am open as he suggests to other solutions, I maybe just started coming across as overly defensive of my own idea when I felt it was just getting shot down with no alternatives.

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  • 6 months later...

Any update on whether or when we'll be able to swap seats online? I play mostly with a squadron doing an online Liberation campaign, and the lack of this functionality effectively cripples me as we don't have enough RIOs to go around. I admire the work that Jester can do, but it'd be much better if I was able to take over the Radar for long-range BVR. Unfortunately I'm now switching to the Hornet to get around this issue, but it's killing me as the Tomcat is by far my favourite jet in the sim. 

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5 hours ago, GunSlingerAUS said:

Any update on whether or when we'll be able to swap seats online? I play mostly with a squadron doing an online Liberation campaign, and the lack of this functionality effectively cripples me as we don't have enough RIOs to go around. I admire the work that Jester can do, but it'd be much better if I was able to take over the Radar for long-range BVR. Unfortunately I'm now switching to the Hornet to get around this issue, but it's killing me as the Tomcat is by far my favourite jet in the sim. 

 

AFAIK there are no plans to enable seat swapping in MP, as this would require a lot of code rework within the DCS engine by ED, which would be very costly and could cause all kind of other issues. Maybe Heatblur can offer an option that allows disabling multicrew for single Tomcats through the mission editor, which should make seat swapping possible, but at the same time would disable multicrewing. There are such options for the Huey and Hind IIRC.


Edited by QuiGon

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Yes, please. Just make a single seat multiplayer version that works the same way of the single player version (a version with one multiplayer slot). This should have been priority number one after release... way more important than A version or NAVGRID. It is a huge downside of the module... for me is almost existential.

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5 hours ago, RPY Variable said:

Yes, please. Just make a single seat multiplayer version that works the same way of the single player version (a version with one multiplayer slot). This should have been priority number one after release... way more important than A version or NAVGRID. It is a huge downside of the module... for me is almost existential.


edit


never mind I completely miss read what you wrote there  


Edited by Q3ark
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13 hours ago, RPY Variable said:

Yes, please. Just make a single seat multiplayer version that works the same way of the single player version (a version with one multiplayer slot). This should have been priority number one after release... way more important than A version or NAVGRID. It is a huge downside of the module... for me is almost existential.

 

Priorities differ. For me it's exactly the opposite. I have zero use for seat swapping, but I'm very happy with the A and NAVGRID.

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11 hours ago, QuiGon said:

 

Priorities differ. For me it's exactly the opposite. I have zero use for seat swapping, but I'm very happy with the A and NAVGRID.


Is not that I don't like the A. I like the A. I know that "there is no accounting for taste" but... If you had the chance to chose between NAVGRID vs rear seat on multiplayer, which includes all the thing you can do on the rear seat. You are saying that you prefer having 4 lines on the TID...  I preferer being able to do a ins fix, or radar position update.. play with the MLC switch, with the DDD, use Pulse Search, do some bvr from the rear seat, etc.


It would be great to be able to do bvr or cruise/loiter from the rear seat and at 30 miles from a bandit go to the front seat. It has more sense to loiter from the back and have iceman fly, than to fly the aircraft and have jester scan with the radar.
 

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5 hours ago, RPY Variable said:

Is not that I don't like the A. I like the A. I know that "there is no accounting for taste" but... 

 

640+ of the 713 built F-14s were, or started their lives, as As.  It's not a point of negotiation that representing that number is less trivial than seat switching in MP.

 

5 hours ago, RPY Variable said:

If you had the chance to chose between NAVGRID vs rear seat on multiplayer, which includes all the thing you can do on the rear seat. You are saying that you prefer having 4 lines on the TID...  I preferer being able to do a ins fix, or radar position update.. play with the MLC switch, with the DDD, use Pulse Search, do some bvr from the rear seat, etc.

 

NAVGRID is fundamental to the back seat in the fleet air defense role.  Everything you do is dependent on the pre-plotted positioning in that grid, because the other players have their own defined roles set in that same field in preparation for EMCON or jamming-heavy operations.  That it's being used as a glorified bullseye isn't the fault of the function, but that it's meaning hasn't been effectively presented yet.  

 

So yeah- better to have it for actually simulating how the plane was used, than to jump back and forth in a multiplayer environment. Not saying it wouldn't be fun or nice to have, but priorities. 


Edited by lunaticfringe
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35 minutes ago, RPY Variable said:


Is not that I don't like the A. I like the A. I know that "there is no accounting for taste" but... If you had the chance to chose between NAVGRID vs rear seat on multiplayer, which includes all the thing you can do on the rear seat. You are saying that you prefer having 4 lines on the TID...  I preferer being able to do a ins fix, or radar position update.. play with the MLC switch, with the DDD, use Pulse Search, do some bvr from the rear seat, etc.


It would be great to be able to do bvr or cruise/loiter from the rear seat and at 30 miles from a bandit go to the front seat. It has more sense to loiter from the back and have iceman fly, than to fly the aircraft and have jester scan with the radar.
 

 

You missunderstood me there. I didn't say that I have no use for the rear seat. I said I have no use for swapping seats. Of the several hundred hours I have spent in the DCS Tomcat I spent 99.7% of them on the rear seat. So I actually have almost no use for the front seat :wink:

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13 hours ago, QuiGon said:

 

You missunderstood me there. I didn't say that I have no use for the rear seat. I said I have no use for swapping seats. Of the several hundred hours I have spent in the DCS Tomcat I spent 99.7% of them on the rear seat. So I actually have almost no use for the front seat :wink:


And you can't use the rear seat if you fly alone in multiplayer! so we are on the same page. I also spent 99% of my time on the rear cockpit, I am the official RIO of my DCS group. I have two pilots, but they are not always available, so sometimes I use the F-14 alone in multiplayer, but I find it very frustrating sometimes. And frankly, the aircraft is perfectly usable if we where able switch seats on multiplayer. So being able to takeoff, land, dogfight, and use the RIO seat while criusing and bvr would be a fun multiplier.

The thing is that being on the back and giving commands to Iceman is almost as giving command to a human pilot... up down, 30 degree to the left/right. It is pretty uncompromising. But being on the front and giving commands is very compromising.


Edited by RPY Variable

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  • 1 month later...

So I've been doing this for a while by disabling player seat lock on the mission. I've tested this in the ME and in Multiplayer on my own hosted server. Might be worth a shot to see if this works for you guys. The option is an Action in the trigger section of the ME. "STOP PLAYER SEAT LOCK()". Should just need to have it activate on mission start. Hope this helps.

 

-Olds


Edited by RodWan
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So I've been doing this for a while be disabling player seat lock on the mission. I've tested this in the ME and in Multiplayer on my own hosted server. Might be worth a shot to see it this works for you guys. The option is an Action in the trigger section of the ME. "STOP PLAYER SEAT LOCK()". Should just need to have it activate on mission start. Hope this helps.
 
-Olds
I'll have to check this out. But may I ask what happens if you multicrew and the pilot leaves the aircraft? Is the rio despawned as well?

This is currently something of a problem when you fly rio. The pilot might get technical problems or family stuff. It'd be nice if you could continue with Jester, should this happen.
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1 hour ago, Katj said:

I'll have to check this out. But may I ask what happens if you multicrew and the pilot leaves the aircraft? Is the rio despawned as well?

This is currently something of a problem when you fly rio. The pilot might get technical problems or family stuff. It'd be nice if you could continue with Jester, should this happen.

The Rio cannon leave their seat from what I've noticed. Only the Pilot can get access to the Rio seat. Also if both the Pilot and Rio are in seat 2 there is some weirdness.

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