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Should an AIM-120 Loft on a Jamming Target? (F-18 and F-15 Launch)


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  In the the recent update, Deka announced that they had fixed a bug where the Sd-10 would loft on a jamming target. Should the Aim-120 also NOT loft on a target that is jamming? Currently as of now, when shot in the Hornet or Eagle, it does. Is this a bug or is this how the missile is supposed to behave? Perhaps this is where the AMRAAM becomes superior to the Sd-10????


Edited by THE KING
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  • THE KING changed the title to Should an AIM-120 Loft on a Jamming Target? (F-18 and F-15 Launch)

It shouldnt no, but it does for some reason. After all, percise lofting (as implemented in DCS) requires range information. Ableit, simple G bias lofted could theoretically work even under ECM as no range info is needed, but thats not whats happening

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30 minutes ago, dundun92 said:

It shouldnt no, but it does for some reason. After all, percise lofting (as implemented in DCS) requires range information. Ableit, simple G bias lofted could theoretically work even under ECM as no range info is needed, but thats not whats happening

Could the missile not initially loft, and start to pitch over onto the target as the jamming signal becomes stronger? I would think that the AMRAAM can tell, as it approaches the target, the strength of the jamming signals coming from it and use that as a rough range estimate.


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Additionally, couldn’t the AIM-120 receive  precise, (or far more precise), range data from the AWACS through data link? I recall reading somewhere that the Aim-120 can be guided via data link but perhaps I misinterpreted this though. Further more, would the AWACS also be jammed by the target, making this guidance method no more effective, or is the radar on it powerful enough to burn through jammers at long ranges?

 

Right now, it’s just hard to know what is and is not a true representation of reality in DCS due to many things still being a work in progress. 


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1 hour ago, THE KING said:

Could the missile not initially loft, and start to pitch over onto the target as the jamming signal becomes stronger? I would think that the AMRAAM can tell, as it approaches the target, the strength of the jamming signals coming from it and use that as a rough range estimate.

For relative range, maybe, for absolute range (what you need), nope

1 hour ago, THE KING said:

Additionally, couldn’t the AIM-120 receive  precise, (or far more precise), range data from the AWACS through data link? I recall reading somewhere that the Aim-120 can be guided via data link but perhaps I misinterpreted this though.

They can, but not the older ones we have in DCS (C-5/B)

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On 1/27/2021 at 10:33 PM, dundun92 said:

For relative range, maybe, for absolute range (what you need), nope

They can, but not the older ones we have in DCS (C-5/B)

So I posted this concern in another thread but I will also bring it up here. 
 

This is where I see this going in future updates and it has me quite concerned. If and when ED corrects the lofting AMRAAM bug, then that’s fine, I will take realism over gameplay any day, this is a simulator after all. However, what is questionable realism is that currently, aircraft like the Jf-17can jam radars, (either hard locking or soft locking it) AND continue to track targets with its own radar. Now in the last update, it was mentioned that the SD-10 can no longer loft against jamming targets. The problem is however, the Hornet does not appear to be able to jam radars unless they hard lock it. This means that potentially, Jf-17’s will be able to engage non jamming F-18’s in TWS with their alreadykinematically superior Sd-10’s, (that will be able to loft), while the Hornet is stuck firing it’s AMRAAMS that will not be able to loft. In this type of situation, it would be nearly impossible for the Hornet to kill the Jf-17. 

 


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On 1/27/2021 at 8:34 PM, THE KING said:

Could the missile not initially loft, and start to pitch over onto the target as the jamming signal becomes stronger? I would think that the AMRAAM can tell, as it approaches the target, the strength of the jamming signals coming from it and use that as a rough range estimate.

 

Probably not.  There's no guarantee for the jammer's behavior.   What you're looking for is a loft based on angles - ie. hold the target a certain number of degrees under the horizon (up to a limit, you want to end flying 'up' either before or as your rocket motor burns out in most cases) until the seeker rate increases past a certain point, then either adjust that angle or go PN.  It's still less efficient than having good data, and again, there's a lot about the jammer's behavior that you cannot guarantee (in DCS we just have broad-band range jamming, so whatever).

11 minutes ago, THE KING said:

However, what is questionable realism is that currently, aircraft like the Jf-17can jam radars, (either hard locking or soft locking it) AND continue to track targets with its own radar.

 

There's nothing questionable about this in terms of realism except for the number of tracks (in this case I mean specifically tracks within the RWR or whatever other receiver) can be jammed simultaneously, which is not represented in DCS (your ECM just jams everything).  If the ECM is set up to jam radars in search mode, there's no problem with this.  And:

 

11 minutes ago, THE KING said:

Now in the last update, it was mentioned that the SD-10 can no longer loft against jamming targets. The problem is however, the Hornet does not appear to be able to jam radars unless they hard lock it.

 

This is not a problem.   It's just life.  That particular SPJ is set up to react to spikes, not nails.  If it can only jam 2 tracks, there's no sense in wasting power and time on jamming nails.  You'd rely on an SoJ, which of course is not in DCS, but you always have tactics.

 

11 minutes ago, THE KING said:

This means that potentially, Jf-17’s will be able to engage non jamming F-18’s in TWS with their alreadykinematically superior Sd-10’s, (that will be able to loft), while the Hornet is stuck firing it’s AMRAAMS that will not be able to loft. In this type of situation, it would be nearly impossible for the Hornet to kill the Jf-17. 

 

There's nothing impossible about this except for people who a) lack tactics and b) lonewolf it, which I suppose is common in the vast majority of DCS public MP.

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1 hour ago, THE KING said:

So I posted this concern in another thread but I will also bring it up here. 
 

...This means that potentially, Jf-17’s will be able to engage non jamming F-18’s in TWS with their alreadykinematically superior Sd-10’s, (that will be able to loft), while the Hornet is stuck firing it’s AMRAAMS that will not be able to loft. In this type of situation, it would be nearly impossible for the Hornet to kill the Jf-17. 

 

 

If you think that is "impossible" try flying an Su-27 where your own jammer does nothing to the F/A-18, but the Hornet's jammer happily clogs up the Flanker's radar.

Cmptohocah=CMPTOHOCAH 😉

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2 hours ago, Cmptohocah said:

If you think that is "impossible" try flying an Su-27 where your own jammer does nothing to the F/A-18, but the Hornet's jammer happily clogs up the Flanker's radar.

Except that it does now 🙂. And the F-18 wont jam unless you STT it, wont jam you in TWS/RWS

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@THE KING I saw your post on the F-18 forums that you copied into this one.

 

You received some (what I though) to be fairly good responses explaining the difference between the 2 jammers. Someone also explained that the F-16 won’t work like the F-18’s but more like the JF, I recall another person going through the numbers and explaining how this new process add to the F-18 doesn’t really make much difference either.


Edited by Blinky.ben
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On 1/30/2021 at 11:29 AM, THE KING said:

So are we 100% certain that the Hornet will not be able to jam anything other than STT locks? If so, then it’s practically useless against 4th gen fighters that can engage it in TWS. As I have said, the situation will be, aircraft like the Jf-17 and F-16, as you mentioned, will be able to pick the Hornet off at long range with ease because the it won’t be able to jam them. The Hornet on the other hand, will be forced to fire on jamming targets, that will apparently cause its own AMRAAM not to loft, making it practically useless at long range. This is were we are headed and if it is realistic, then so be it. And in terms of tactics, unless you are going up against a fool, the Hornet has little to no chance for survival. To me, I would think that an aircraft as advanced as the Hornet, would have a solution to this problem, the solution being that it can jam TWS tracks either with its own onboard jammer, or an external one. 

 

Nope I never said that’s the case. I said your same post in the F-18 forums had some good points on how things work from other people. Which I thought would have answered your question but it appears your not exactly happy about those responses. 

 

one thing I might add is and I’m not saying this is the exact answer.  Remember the F-18 compared to say airforce train of thought e.g F-18 was designed from the ground up to work as a carrier aircraft, Not a independent platform. So we are getting a F-18 that is modelled around a aircraft that was designed to never ever be beyond the support of a carrier fleet and layer upon layers of support from other aircraft specifically designed to do a very specified role e.g EW/Jamming. So the F-18 we have in DCS that we push ED to model correctly compared to real world doesn’t always work out cause unless you are part of a fairly strict clan or server that forces all these layers of support then you will get a weird feature like turn off the radar to Jam. Cause in real world a F-18 pilot wouldn’t even have a radar on in a all out conflict until they are about to engage, so jamming for them is a last step of survival cause they are relying on a lot of other aircraft doing that for them. in DCS it doesn’t work like that so a feature like this doesn’t make sense but again we demand realism so that’s what ED deliver. Other nations that purchase these same aircraft don’t have the same amount of layers of support so they need a single aircraft to do more so we find out that a f-18 somewhere in world does in fact get added features from companies like Raytheon to fill the gaps by developing equipment like dedicated or more powerful Jammers that America doesn’t use cause they don’t consider that necessary as they already have dedicated aircraft to do that. In DCS we supposedly have a specific F-18 from a certain time in history from a specific military organisation that didn’t use every single thing a F-18 has ever used.

 

also someone (not me) added the F-18C radar we have in DCS uses the radar to Jam which is why it chooses to do one or the other. I have no idea how true this is (I also doubt this to be fact) but it adds up if that is the case, as opposed to many other aircraft that have dedicated jammers that are carried on pylons that are completely stand alone to the radar. Now we can go on a massive debate how they still can’t cause of jamming their own radar but that’s a field that myself and many others have knowledge about cause we work in this field. But it is soooooo lock tight we have no idea what can be said or not.


Edited by Blinky.ben
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  • 2 weeks later...

its pretty funny see your 120c loft against a jammer target(that you just can break the jammer at 20 miles), bye bye taxpayer money. Hope they fix that soon.

 

Also I would like to see a 120 mode that you turn off the auto loft. sometimes the loft just makes you lose battery time(on a high altitude engagement this counts). 

 

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5 hours ago, Bravo One said:

Also I would like to see a 120 mode that you turn off the auto loft.

 

There is no such mode.

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