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Is the Flight Model going to be updated?


LaFleur
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First of all, I have to say I'm pleased to see ED pushing towards completing the FA-18C although there is a fair amount of features that don't have proper functionality and we haven't heard anything about (...ahem... MIDS Page functionality, D/L features, L16 sending designation to wingmen, missing HSI and SA page functions, accurate IFF implementation etc).

In 2020, there was a poll that asked us what feature was more important to us to be added. People overwhelmingly voted for the flight model update. Fast forward to 2021, "officially", the flight model hasn't been updated, besides fixing the ground effect (which was a bug for two years). 
Among all these other features for the F/A-18C release in Q1, is the flight model also on the list? Are we to expect something like that? Among many other FM issues that have been discussed about in other threads about FM accuracy and underperformance compared to public unclassified material, the airplane has some weird interactions when performing split S with about .8 to .9 Mach speeds, it starts having seizures and going nose up and down. 

Can we expect such an update or ED has forgotten about the FM update?


Edited by LaFleur
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Can’t speak to everything here, but they certainly did let us know about sharing target data “txdsg”, along with automatic iff functionality. 

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What problems are there with the flight model still to be addressed?

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On 1/26/2021 at 6:10 AM, kengou said:

What problems are there with the flight model still to be addressed?

I'll be honest: Having fallen in love with the DCS Hornet, flight model changes at this stage make me nervous. I am all for getting closer to how the real Block 20 performs... and any steps in the direction of the Hornet's real life performance are a plus from my perspective. But it is going to be really hard to swallow if the flight model updates have a negative impact on the Hornet we've gotten used to over the past three years. Hopefully, all the anecdotal stuff from "Mover" and "Gonky" about the DCS Hornet being a little too draggy and too slow in acceleration are actually true. But we'll see. All this is to say: The current state of the Hornet FM in DCS has at least one fan in me. :smile: Here's to improvements that get the Hornet as close to reality as possible...and that that reality is HIGH PERFORMANCE. 🤞 Keep up the awesome work, ED Team! This jet is out-of-control-amazing.


Edited by wilbur81
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17 hours ago, Stearmandriver said:

Balloon during landing configuration, for one. 

I do notice that if I am at 150 KIAS at threshold, landing an empty + clean, Hornet gets stuck in GE, and eats up runway length very fast. But I have a bad habit in Hornet , of flaring, which is something that should not be done in this aircraft. Just hold 10-12 AOA and 135-140 KIAS , and land as if trapping. Now in Mig-29 PFM, you must flare, or you will bounce and bust a tire.

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3 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

I do notice that if I am at 150 KIAS at threshold, landing an empty + clean, Hornet gets stuck in GE, and eats up runway length very fast. But I have a bad habit in Hornet , of flaring, which is something that should not be done in this aircraft. Just hold 10-12 AOA and 135-140 KIAS , and land as if trapping. Now in Mig-29 PFM, you must flare, or you will bounce and bust a tire.

Well you can flare if desired, plenty of video of flared landings in real Hornets... but that's not quite what I meant.  I was referring to the severe balloon experienced when extending the flaps for landing.  It's been widely discussed that the real plane doesn't do that... which makes sense, it's fly by wire, so you'd expect the FCS to compensate for that kind of thing.  ED stated at one point that they'd be fixing that, along with some other behaviors. 

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4 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

I do notice that if I am at 150 KIAS at threshold, landing an empty + clean, Hornet gets stuck in GE, and eats up runway length very fast. But I have a bad habit in Hornet , of flaring, which is something that should not be done in this aircraft. Just hold 10-12 AOA and 135-140 KIAS , and land as if trapping. Now in Mig-29 PFM, you must flare, or you will bounce and bust a tire.

Most aircraft you have to flare on landing.  In the JF if you don't flare your kidneys will be around your ears.

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Hey, Bignewy and/or Nineline.

 

Quick (annoying, I know) question: Were any changes made in today's patch to the Hornet's flight model, engine performance, parasitic drag, energy bleed, etc... or new atmospheric effects that would degrade turn performance? I'm probably imagining things, but just wanted to check for an official word. :thumbup:

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8 hours ago, Stearmandriver said:

Well you can flare if desired, plenty of video of flared landings in real Hornets... but that's not quite what I meant.  I was referring to the severe balloon experienced when extending the flaps for landing.  It's been widely discussed that the real plane doesn't do that... which makes sense, it's fly by wire, so you'd expect the FCS to compensate for that kind of thing.  ED stated at one point that they'd be fixing that, along with some other behaviors. 


i agree, been seeing the same problem. Just learning carrier landings and I can be low and find myself blowing over the whole deck with minimal throttle, and just a quick burst. Should I try half flaps? I thought I had landings down and moved on to ground attack, came bac to do a few landings and problems. This is one hard sim, not that that’s a bad thing. Sorry didn’t mean to get off point.. 

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38 minutes ago, JTAnimal said:


i agree, been seeing the same problem. Just learning carrier landings and I can be low and find myself blowing over the whole deck with minimal throttle, and just a quick burst. Should I try half flaps? I thought I had landings down and moved on to ground attack, came bac to do a few landings and problems. This is one hard sim, not that that’s a bad thing. Sorry didn’t mean to get off point.. 

This is also not quite what I was referring to 😉.  But yes, it is easy to float over the wires with just a LITTLE too much power.  I wouldn't try half flaps; flaps are drag and less drag would, if anything, make this tendency worse... plus I assume the correct trap AoA and attitude are based on full flaps?  I wonder now; is it approved (and would you ever choose to) trap at half flaps, say on a really nautical, gusty day?  Interesting question. 

 

Really though, you've just got to be gentle on the throttles.  I know that we've all seen the videos of fleet pilots enthusiastically ramming the throttles from stop to stop but... I'm not sure that makes it ideal technique.  I've seen videos of (typically younger) pilots landing 737s that way too, and being very proud of it, and I can say that in reality it's poor airmanship.  Three violent control deflections accomplish the same as one measured one, and are more destabilizing.  We take pains to discourage the new guys from over-controlling jets. 

 

I've never flown tactical jets so I can't say whether there really is a reason to fly them this way... but the DCS Hornet sure doesn't need it.  Just settle down; light grip on the controls and prompt but small corrections when necessary.  You'll see once you get stable, it does not take much work to stay stable. 

 

And to clarify, what I'm referring to specifically is the balloon tendency DURING flap extension. 

 

 

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On 1/27/2021 at 11:58 PM, JTAnimal said:


i agree, been seeing the same problem. Just learning carrier landings and I can be low and find myself blowing over the whole deck with minimal throttle, and just a quick burst. Should I try half flaps? I thought I had landings down and moved on to ground attack, came bac to do a few landings and problems. This is one hard sim, not that that’s a bad thing. Sorry didn’t mean to get off point.. 

In the JF, MiG-29, and Mirage my landing glide slope is 2-3 degrees.   The F-18C the carrier landing glide slope is 5-8deg.  I basically found that dropping it on the carrier at 130-140kts is about the best approach.

 

 

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On 1/26/2021 at 1:10 PM, kengou said:

What problems are there with the flight model still to be addressed?

well for me it's the aircraft behavior during power approach, especially with cross-winds. i refuse to believe that controlling the altitude with engine power would yield such a pronounced instability in vertical speed.

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1 hour ago, HILOK said:

 i refuse to believe that controlling the altitude with engine power would yield such a pronounced instability in vertical speed.

Would you be willing to post a track of one of your landings with the controls indicator on so we could watch/analyze how you're landing? I'm not quite sure what you mean by "pronounced instability in vertical speed?" I find holding a stable decent with the throttles in a PA fairly straight forward. I've always felt that the DCS Hornet was pretty under-powered given that it has the GE -402's, but I'm sure ED is getting as close to reality as they legally can... keeping the Early Access status in mind of course. 🙂


Edited by wilbur81

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15 hours ago, Hodo said:

In the JF, MiG-29, and Mirage my landing glide slope is 2-3 degrees.   The F-18C the carrier landing glide slope is 5-8deg.  I basically found that dropping it on the carrier at 130-140kts is about the best approach.

 

 

The standard recovery angle on the boat is 3.5 degrees.  Factoring in boat motion, this works out to an effective 3.0 degree glideslope.  This is what the FLOLS and ICLS are both set to.  5 - 8 degrees is far too steep and wouldn't jibe with any guidance. 

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On 1/30/2021 at 12:31 AM, Stearmandriver said:

The standard recovery angle on the boat is 3.5 degrees.  Factoring in boat motion, this works out to an effective 3.0 degree glideslope.  This is what the FLOLS and ICLS are both set to.  5 - 8 degrees is far too steep and wouldn't jibe with any guidance. 

I can stick it to the deck without much of an issue between 3-5 deg.  8 is when I am slamming it.  

 

I did some more landings last night on the GAW server and found that my landing approach is 3-5 deg.  I ignore most of the indications... Been landing WWII planes on decks in sims since the 90s.  

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@wilbur81 thanks for your post (and your patience). while doing some tests in order to better describe what i meant, i came to the conclusion that the problem mentioned in my post above is more likely due to engine modeling rather than to FM.

there's a thread about that issue going on over here already:

 

 

 

anyway, thanks for your interest!

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On 1/26/2021 at 3:19 PM, Stearmandriver said:

Balloon during landing configuration, for one. 

I hope they also take a look at the over-banking tendency, noticeable on the base to final turn.

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2 hours ago, Chops said:

I hope they also take a look at the over-banking tendency, noticeable on the base to final turn.

 

What does over-banking tendency mean in this context?


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4 hours ago, Razor18 said:

 

What does over-banking tendency mean in this context?

 

For example, when rolling into a 30 degree bank from downwind to base, the F/A-18C tends to keep increasing the bank angle rather than staying stabilized in the 30 degree bank (in DCS).  Although I am a pilot I have not flown the F/A-18C in real life, however, I have seen a real F/A-18 pilot comment on this as well.

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On 1/30/2021 at 3:31 PM, Stearmandriver said:

The standard recovery angle on the boat is 3.5 degrees.  Factoring in boat motion, this works out to an effective 3.0 degree glideslope.  This is what the FLOLS and ICLS are both set to.  5 - 8 degrees is far too steep and wouldn't jibe with any guidance. 

So what values need to change for this? Is it too much drag?

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14 minutes ago, Blinky.ben said:

So what values need to change for this? Is it too much drag?

I... don't know, because I'm not sure I'm understanding the problem Hodo was trying to describe.  I fly the ICLS and the ball to a trap with no problems.  I find the Hornet flight model to be very stable on approach.  I actually really enjoy about 99% of how this sim handles.  The only issue I brought up here was the already-acknowledged problem of the plane ballooning pretty severely as flaps are extended.  Once configured and trimmed though, I think she flies great in the groove. 

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