Mi-8 as gunship (for multiplayer)?

[Chaoslian]

Hello,

 

currently i'm flying the Huey and i'm having a lot of fun. But there is one thing that bothers me. 

Because the Huey isn't  really able to fight amored ground targets, i'm limited to logistic jobs in multiplayer.

And though i enjoy doing logistics, i would like to be able to do more than that.

 

So i'm currently thinking about buying the MI-8 module.

How capable is the MI-8 if it comes to fight tanks? Can i just load the MI-8 with a shitload of rockets and be at least half way effective against them?

How many anti tank rockets can i put on the MI-8?

 

I am aware, that it's way easier (and safer) to fight them with a gazelle or a K50. But i have to say, i don't really enjoy playing with guided rockets.

 

So my plan was to put as many rockets in the MI-8 as i can, and creating a broad field of damage to get tanks down. Does this work?

 

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[admiki]

Not really. DCS has no splash damage modeled, so only increase to your effectiveness would be sheer number of rockets. Being bigger and heavier than Huey equals to less maneuverable, so standoff attacks are name of the game. Which equals to less effectiveness.

Don't get me wrong, Mi8 is great module to fly, with it's quirks and pros, but not for what you are looking for.

If you want to learn how to plan and execute  your approaches to tight OGE LZs without crashing, knowledge of which can be transfered to all other modules, then Mi8 is the one

[scoobie]

Short answer: no. At least not at the moment.

 

It's not so much about Mi-8 as a helo, but - as said above - it's about rocket damage. For example, you may fire a tonne of rockets a foot away from a heavy armor's track and it will do literally nothing. Only a direct hit may do any damage and... now I can't remember, but possibly you have to use those rockets optimized for anti-personnel, not armor! Go figure! In Mi-8 also damage from cannon pods (23 mm, iirc) is lesser against armor than from 12.7 mm GUV guns.

So... Mi-8 rocks, it's one of the best modules in DCS, IMHO, but weapon effectiveness howls for attention from the devs, I think

In DCS: Mi-8 you can carry up to 120 rockets! 120!

 

(For pounding light armor or*) unarmored targets, those rockets and other weapons on Mi-8 are just fine).

 

*) Nah, sorry - not sure about light armor, can't remember atm.

Edited January 23, 2021 by scoobie

[WinterH]

Up to APCs, IFVs, self propelled artillery etc, yeah, Mi-8 can be a quite decent gunship. But you specifically say tanks, and in that case answer is no.

 

Take rocket pods with 19 rockets each for your Huey, and try it against tanks. Mi-8 will have slightly more capable rockets, and 3 times as many of them, and then some. But that still shouldn't prove to be especially effective against tanks which require direct hits in weaker areas. You may kill 1 or 2 if you are really accurate, but I wouldn't say it is something do depend on.

 

If your target is going to be killing tanks, you are better off taking Ka-50, SA-342M, or upcoming helicopter modules like Mi-24P, OH-58D, and eventually AH-64D.

 

Now, if we take a step back, and think of a more realistic application of Mi-8 as a gunship, namely against soft skinned vehicles, infantry, and up to lightly armored ones, well go to town in this case. Huey is great in that it can have 4 high fire rate gatling guns that can be trained on targets without turning the helicopter, but they are only 7.62mm ones. Mi-8 can carry a boatload of rockets to saturate an area nicely. She too has some machine gunner positions, even if arguably less impressive than Huey, and finally she has two good gunpods: UPK-23 is good against soft targets with HE rounds, but can still take out light armor. GUV-8700 pods give you one 12.7mm YakB and two 7.62mm GShG gatling guns each, though you can only fire one caliber at a time. This one has ample ammo, and 12.7mm is actually slightly better at penetrating light armor than 23mm. 7.62s are only good for infantry and trucks etc of course, but it's still a lot of dakka.

[Chaoslian]

Thanks for the input, i appreciate that.

 

I have to say 180 rockets sounds amazing.^^

I'm aware of the missing splash damage, and thats exactly why i think about the Mi-8. In the Huey, i am able to get direct hits if i fire 4-6 rockets simultaniously. But with 7 anti tank rockets on each side, i run out of ammo pretty quick.

 

I'm now a bit confused about rocket types. Scoobie said i have to use anti personal rockets and WinterH mentioned i should try the Huey with 19 rockets on each side. But i can only put 19 mk151 he or wp to the Huey, and in the manual, they are described as anti personal rockets too. 

Is the rocket type really that unimportant?

 

Also, i feel that there is some misunderstanding here. I don't plan to take out masses of tanks. I was thinking about getting 1 or 2 tanks down, if i need to. Logistics should still be my main work. If i really need to go hunt a lot of ground targets, i'll grab my k50 or the F/A-18C. 

[WinterH]

2 hours ago, Chaoslian said:

Is the rocket type really that unimportant?

IRL, low caliber HE/Frag rockets shouln't do particularly well against proper tanks. Well, they would of course be able to damage sights etc, and degrade fighting capability, but their chance of going through the armor and "destroy" the vehicle would be slim, so HEAT warheads may provide more of a chance, at least if they hit weaker parts of armor on older tanks. But they require direct hits. It's worth noting that, damaging tracks, sights etc to cause mission kills is not a thing in DCS, at least not yet.

 

Quite honestly, I am not entirely sure how it is at this point, been a long time since I tried to engage tanks with rockets in DCS. I will actually test this, got me curious. In days of yore though, S-8OFP2 (HE/frag) was a lot more reliable than S-8KOM (HEAT) against tanks. I still habitually load only OFPs on Russian aircraft when I take S-8s, but frankly in most missions I make, it is against AAA, lighter vehicles, infantry etc.

 

One thing is sure though. Against anything that isn't a proper tank, HE/frag rockets are more reliable than HEAT ones. Because a salvo of them will do decent bit of damage even if you can't score direct hits. Blast/Frag damage is somewhat muted in DCS, but it still exists. HEAT rockets need direct hits to do anything, and depending on where you hit the tank, they may still fail to penetrate. Lately it feels like armor/penetrator interaction in DCS got more serious than earlier. So, testing the waters with both HE and HEAT rockets again might be a good idea to find what's best nowadays.

Edit: welp, just tested. Put an M1A2 and a Leo2 on the map, and tested: Mi-8 full of S-8OFP2, Mi-8 full of S-8KOM, and UH-1 with HE. Now granted, these are really the big boys, Abrams and Leopard 2. But the results are: Huey's HE rockets and Mi-8's HE rockets don't do crap, often even with direct hits :). S-8KOM, the HEAT rocket, can kill the Abrams with 5-6 direct hits. But scoring that many hits took all my 120 rockets lol. I have approached and attacked them from their 3 o'clock. So, yeah, armor is a thing now, and HE rockets splashing tanks to death is a thing of past apparently :).

Edited January 23, 2021 by WinterH

[Chaoslian]

Thanks for testing.

 

You're right, 5-6 direct hits are way to much to be viable. Thats begging for getting killed.

 

So i think, i'll wait until the MI-8 is in sale and buy it because it's a cool helo, but i will have to find something different to be useful in MP with a helo. 

 

EDIT:

 

Offtopic but: Is there any way, i can command troops to a certain direction on servers like blue flag? Basicely bringing AT troops near tanks and tell them to go kill it? If i could do that, i would be happy with troop transport only

Edited January 23, 2021 by Chaoslian

[admiki]

You should be able if you have Combined arms module. Also, but this depends on what scripts are running on server, you can command them to go to certain position via F10 markers. You need to put marker before you drop troops. If you need to move them to new position, you will need to load them and repeat F10 procedure

 

[Sobakopes]

Have extensive experience with gunship mi8. The best weapons are OFP and KOM followed by grenade launcher pods. 

Ofc you need to know how to land shots. It takes time and knowledge to get better at it. 

Most effective range for rockets is 1500m. OFP can destroy all thin skinned vehicles such as btr, mtlb, brdm, bmd and often BMP(not bmp3 though) , LVTP, stryker. OFP do not require direct hits against weak armor and this makes them optimal against such. 

KOM are required for IFV, NATO up armored apcs such as Stryker, m113 and LVTP and also tanks.

IFV are too good at spotting and hitting your chopper so you usually lose unless you launched from 2500m. However this reduces chance to hit drastically. Right now KOMs can't shine because the intended targets are too dangerous for yourself. Modern tanks seem to be semi resistant to KOM rockets also however the can be taken out with 3 damaging hits. Old tanks are easier. 

80 rockets to take out a t55 is possible and you need 2 hits. With more powerful tanks the chances are slim. Warhead isn't too powerful and direct hits are a matter of skill and luck. It's not unreasonable to hit 1-2 direct shots out of 80 and sometimes you get none. 

That's why OFP rocket splash damage is a boon. 

Also mi8 is best used with 4 pylons loaded. 

Against weak apc and infantry OFP rockets are deadly when used right. 

Having fun in mi8 attacker is a matter of having appropriate mission of which there are very few and far between. 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Sobakopes

[Mr_sukebe]

Some thoughts/my opinion:

- I love flying the Mi8, still my favourite to fly

- I don’t think it makes a good gunship.  For one thing, it gets damaged very easily, far more so than say the Huey

- the AI gunners on the HIP are not like the super deadly snipers on the Huey

- there’s a good choice of weapons on the HIP, upto and including dropping bombs.  However, no guided weapons or view driven sight like the Ka50

Personally, I tend to avoid using it as a gunship, but that’s just me.  With an improvement to its survival ability and rocket splash damage, would be a different matter.  Not that it bothers me, as I also believe that it’s likely to get an overhaul in the next year.

 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Mr_sukebe

[Sobakopes]

47 минут назад, Mr_sukebe сказал:

Some thoughts/my opinion:

- I love flying the Mi8, still my favourite to fly

- I don’t think it makes a good gunship.  For one thing, it gets damaged very easily, far more so than say the Huey

- the AI gunners on the HIP are not like the super deadly snipers on the Huey

- there’s a good choice of weapons on the HIP, upto and including dropping bombs.  However, no guides weapons or view driven sight like the Ka50

Personally, I tend to avoid using it as a gunship, but that’s just me.  With an improvement to its survival ability and rocket splash damage, would be a different matter.  Not that it bothers me, as I also believe that it’s likely to get an overhaul in the next year.

 

 

 

Don't agree on door gunner. In game terms the Kord gunner is extremely powerful and outdoes the huey mini guns by far. Just set it on short burst otherwise it refuses to shoot. Irl Kord 12.7 is a laser gun. 

The rear gunner can be safely skipped. Does not have the damage being 7.62.irl it provided good rear hemisphere protection and supression greatly discouraging the Mujahideen from attacking. 

Fixed pylon weapons. The thing is people never bother using these the way they were intended to which is a long learning process. It took me months before I knew what I was doing. This just means people never bother to learn the module. 

Even if you learned combat with fixed weapons you still have to understand your potential. It's limited against protected vehicles requiring direct hits with unguided rockets. These rockets can have less than 4% direct hit rate at 1500 or 2000 m. Thats why you carry 80. You need to know this limitation and accept it. 

OFP have excellent effect on weak armor though so your ability to combat btrs is very good in fact. 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Sobakopes

[jubuttib]

On 12/20/2021 at 4:19 PM, Sobakopes said:

OFP have excellent effect on weak armor though so your ability to combat btrs is very good in fact. 

This is something that kinda sticks out to me in DCS. With the A-10C's APKWS rockets you can easily take care of most IFVs with a couple of M151s, the only place where you really need the M282s is against actual MBTs, and against those you need to hit specific areas too to do anything.