SEAD: What does the viper can, what the Hornet can't?

[VTJS17_Fire]

This is not a vote for one of the both, I want just to clarify it for myself. I read multiple times, that the viper is more capable of doing SEAD, because it has the AN/ASQ-213 HARM pod. I don't have bought the Viper, I just learning the Hornet. And note: I ask for the full finished modules, not the curretn EA access of both.

 

So, what I know about the Hornets capability, when it comes down to SEAD:

• She can protect herself, while fighting very aggressive, with the SP mode
• She can pick-up specific radiating emitters with TOO mode.
• She can engage Surface-to-Air threats with the PB mode, when they'll come online.
• She can engage Surface-to-Air threats with the SLAM-ER, JSOW or Maverick, when they stay offline (not exactly SEAD but another tactic to reach air-superiority regarding to threats on the ground)

 

So, what can the Viper with its pod, what the Hornet can't do? Or did they upgrade the Hornet we get in DCS to Vipers SEAD capabilities?

 

Thanks

[Rubberduck85]

The HTS pod that will come with the Viper allows the pilot to obtain reasonably accurate data on bearing and distance of an emitting ground radar.

Why is it cool? Because you don't need to know where the ground radar is located specifically.

In current DCS meta, if you play viper or hornet, you will often see in HSD(F-16) and EHSD (FA18) yellow threat rings that tell you about the presence of a ground threat, and it's engagement range.

In reality you do NOT always have that information, and if you have, it's because some kind of recon or ELINT has been done: threats have been assessed and the guy in the war room that prepares the mission has uploaded that information in the DTC.

Currently we do not have DTC in DCS and when you create a mission in the editor, by default EVERY threat ring will be displayed on your HSD/EHSD unless you flag hidden on map/hidden on planner. Basically you have "God mode" as it is.

With the HTS pod, you are able to find the threats by yourself (and get bearing and range) for long HARM shots. Without, unless you KNOW where the threat is (PB), you will always have to revert to TOO.

It allows you to counter ground defenses whose position is unknown and not shown in the HSD/EHSD.

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[Wroblowaty]

I am wondering if DCS Hornet could receive pylon mounted direction and range finder receivers, which would enhance Hornets SEAD capabilities. (it is mentioned in the summary of this article: www.ausairpower.net/API-AGM88_HARM )

Edited January 22, 2021 by Wroblowaty

[Topper81]

Why the Hornet can't estimate the range by the elevation angle of the radar source? What I do is to put the TGP over the signal source in the HUD, and then I can see the range in the TGP. So why it can't use this range information for lofting?

[Northstar98]

1 minute ago, Topper81 said:

Why the Hornet can't estimate the range by the elevation angle of the radar source?

 

Because it doesn't have the requisite ELINT equipment to be able to do that.

 

1 minute ago, Topper81 said:

What I do is to put the TGP over the signal source in the HUD, and then I can see the range in the TGP. So why it can't use this range information for lofting?

 

If you're getting useful ranging from the TGPs LTD/R you're probably too close to need a loft. If however, you use the TGP to designate a point, then you might be able to enter in the coordinates in the parameters for PB mode.

[Topper81]

What I do not understand is, the HUD can paint a box around the radar source, so I have the elevation angle (let's say -15°, thats the phi angle). If I project this angle to the ground (considering elevation), I have the hypothenuuse and I can estimate the range by the formula "adjacent side = hypotenuse * cos(phi)". So why the harm cannot loft with this information?

Edited January 22, 2021 by Topper81

[divinee]

Harm doesn’t know the distance to the emitter because it doesn’t know where the ground is at the point of the emitter. If you change the altitude of the emitter, the distance changes. Hud also only shows the direction.

 

edit: also if i understood correctly hornet’s harm implementation is simplified and should be more like HAS in Viper..

Edited January 22, 2021 by divinee

[Topper81]

2 minutes ago, divinee said:

Harm doesn’t know the distance to the emitter because it doesn’t know where the ground is at the point of the emitter. If you change the altitude of the emitter, the distance changes. Hud also only shows the direction.

Ok but the hornet knows it's own position and as far as I know it has a digital "3D World modell" or isn't that the case?

We also can see the elevation in the TGP (without lasing) by this technology or am I wrong?

 

 

[Rubberduck85]

Harm doesn’t know the distance to the emitter because it doesn’t know where the ground is at the point of the emitter. If you change the altitude of the emitter, the distance changes. Hud also only shows the direction.
 
edit: also if i understood correctly hornet’s harm implementation is simplified and should be more like HAS in Viper..

I've heard so. TOO mode is the same of HAS (conceptually) In both cases the sensor is the harm seeker head which yes can detect direction but not the distance. As this limitation is on the missile, i believe operational limitation should be the same, regardless of airframe. I'm no expert however, just trying to apply logic.

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[divinee]

6 minutes ago, Topper81 said:

Ok but the hornet knows it's own position and as far as I know it has a digital "3D World modell" or isn't that the case?

We also can see the elevation in the TGP (without lasing) by this technology or am I wrong?

 

 

I don’t know about the 3D world model but if we’d had that kind of things, the waypoints should have altitude data automatically just like A-10 has. Hornet knows it’s position by gps/ins and barometric altitude which you correct by changing pressure setting. (Edit, also radalt but i’m not sure if that is used at weapons employment)

Edited January 22, 2021 by divinee

[Topper81]

11 minutes ago, divinee said:

I don’t know about the 3D world model but if we’d had that kind of things, the waypoints should have altitude data automatically just like A-10 has. Hornet knows it’s position by gps/ins and barometric altitude which you correct by changing pressure setting. (Edit, also radalt but i’m not sure if that is used at weapons employment)

 

You can find the ground altitude of a waypoint also using the MAP Ground radar:

Select the waypoint and designate it, make the ground radar SOI and select sensor control switch again to the side of the ground radar DDI again (Make sure that the radar cursor is not on it's initial positon but somemore in the center of the ddi). Then your designation is at ground level under the waypoint.

 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2021 by Topper81

[TLTeo]

One issue I can see with estimating range exclusively with a HARM seeker hit is that the angular resolution is pitiful, since it's (very, very) roughly set by the ratio of wavelength to antenna size. The antenna may be a factor of a few larger than, say, a TGP, but the wavelength is about 4-6 orders of magnitude larger - meaning, the resolution is about 4-6 orders of magnitude worse than a IR/TV sensor. Hopefully that illustrates why the HARM seeker alone can't pin down the location of an emitter, and in fact, the fact that it can in DCS is incorrect. You can know the position of your aircraft perfectly well with GPS et al, but if your estimate for the emitter is "that way within a few degrees, at a distance between 15 and 25 miles" or whatever, it's not a particularly great way of finding the emitter to attack it.

 

To refine that estimate you need some dedicated processing, which I imagine is what the HTS does (or, for that matter, what other emitter location systems on SEAD aircraft like the Tornado ECR, Growler, Prolwer or F-4G do). Having that processing stored on the missile itself makes no sense, and it's a big reason why jets are dedicated to SEAD in the first place rather than just happily carry HARMs.

Edited January 22, 2021 by TLTeo

[divinee]

Of course there are ways to find out the altitude of certain point and i’m aware of those. It just doesn’t help with HARMs because different systems should communicate together and it’s not that simple. If it would be that easy, why USAF even bother to buy HTS for their vipers  Hornet doesn’t have systems like HTS which give HARM accurate target data straight for ”PB” equivalent mode which allows it to loft. Block50 Viper is just designed for sead, hornet is multipurpose striker.

[Rubberduck85]

I found this doc by googling around. It's a document from the U.S. GAO (i think it's like the accounting department of the u.s gov) where GAO challenges the DOD (department of defense) about the acquisition of the super hornet. It's probably really boring but at page 93 under "GAO response" it says the hornet has a very limited ability to locate threat radars, so the navy reverts to shooting at known radar position (pre-briefed???).
Mind this is a document from 1996, but maybe something is slightly off in our hornet... I don't know.

https://books.google.it/books?id=XCcLAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA93&lpg=PA93&dq=fa18+too+harm&source=bl&ots=VFMncxGEXj&sig=ACfU3U1V-KTrczeBJNbXFsu1HYH9gVmbRA&hl=it&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiEjcKZ_K_uAhVZCWMBHRjJC2UQ6AEwFXoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=fa18%20too%20harm&f=false



Also I hope not having infringed any forum rules in posting this, it's literally an available publishing.

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[DarkStar]

55 minutes ago, Topper81 said:

Ok but the hornet knows it's own position and as far as I know it has a digital "3D World modell" or isn't that the case?

We also can see the elevation in the TGP (without lasing) by this technology or am I wrong?

 

 

Welcome to the wonderous world of military technology, where the jet is built by one manufacturer, the avionics by a second, the TGP by a third and the weapon by a fourth, and none are seamlessly integrated with each other. Even if you can make the calulations with pen and paper, it does not mean the weapon is able to understand the jets logigc

[VTJS17_Fire]

6 hours ago, Rubberduck85 said:

The HTS pod that will come with the Viper allows the pilot to obtain reasonably accurate data on bearing and distance of an emitting ground radar.
 

 

The other points were clear to me. Thanks to clarify that function of the HTS pod.

 

To work around this missing capability, I could use the SLAM-ER (for example, because of its range) and could suggest the position of the emitter via the Ground Radar. Sure, not 100% accurate, above all a group of ground contacts, but a single SAM should be found that way. What do you think?

[Lace]

15 hours ago, TLTeo said:

One issue I can see with estimating range exclusively with a HARM seeker hit is that the angular resolution is pitiful, since it's (very, very) roughly set by the ratio of wavelength to antenna size. The antenna may be a factor of a few larger than, say, a TGP, but the wavelength is about 4-6 orders of magnitude larger - meaning, the resolution is about 4-6 orders of magnitude worse than a IR/TV sensor. Hopefully that illustrates why the HARM seeker alone can't pin down the location of an emitter, and in fact, the fact that it can in DCS is incorrect. You can know the position of your aircraft perfectly well with GPS et al, but if your estimate for the emitter is "that way within a few degrees, at a distance between 15 and 25 miles" or whatever, it's not a particularly great way of finding the emitter to attack it.

 

 

Exactly.  You will have a large cross range and down range ambiguity, which varies by emitter type, atmospheric conditions, etc.

[Rubberduck85]

 
The other points were clear to me. Thanks to clarify that function of the HTS pod.
 
To work around this missing capability, I could use the SLAM-ER (for example, because of its range) and could suggest the position of the emitter via the Ground Radar. Sure, not 100% accurate, above all a group of ground contacts, but a single SAM should be found that way. What do you think?

You are welcome!

About your suggested workaround: if you know where the threat is because:
A - you placed it with mission editor
Or
B - you see it on F10 map
Or
C - you see the yellow circle on EHSD and you can "guesstimate" the position

Than yes

If you don't know about the presence of the threat (you fly a mission created by someone else and they did not tell you about enemy threats), AND the threat is hidden on map/planner: No, because you don't even know where to look for (even with radar), it can be everywhere and you will only MAYBE be aware of it from the RWR.

Just imagine this scenario (Caucasus map) where you have to suppress enemy air defense system but you don't know where they are and can't see them on EHSD (yellow circle) and F10 map. You only know that it can be anywhere from beslan to anapa, but north of the Caucasus mountain chain. Maybe you will find them with RWR (meaning that they found you first :D ) but very probably they will fire on you first and at that point, radar + slam is redundant, like using a catapult to dunk at basketball from 3 meters.

Regards


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[VTJS17_Fire]

Ah, okay. So the "hidden for the planner" hides them from the RWR/show on HUD, as well?

 

Because this way, I should have an accurate bearing and the range for the Radar in ground mode is what? Usually, the search range is for Bagger, than the track/shoot range of the SAMs.

[DarkStar]

13 minutes ago, VTJG17_Fire said:

Ah, okay. So the "hidden for the planner" hides them from the RWR/show on HUD, as well?

 

 

No, if they emit they will show up on your RWR. 

 

Guys, SEAD is not a one aircraft operation, or even a task of 4 F-16s or Hornets alone. It requires a deliberate intelligence operation through the use of many external assets and perhaps special forces on the ground to find and track mobile sams. You'll want Rivet Joints in the air, you'll want Growlers to jam and suppress, you'll spend hours and hours of mission planning. Even in DCS it's not easy, take Scarlet Dawn MP mission in Syria as an example, most of your harms will get shot down by supporting sams in a integrated air defence system. 

[Lace]

7 minutes ago, DarkStar said:

Guys, SEAD is not a one aircraft operation, or even a task of 4 F-16s or Hornets alone. It requires a deliberate intelligence operation through the use of many external assets and perhaps special forces on the ground to find and track mobile sams. You'll want Rivet Joints in the air, you'll want Growlers to jam and suppress, you'll spend hours and hours of mission planning. Even in DCS it's not easy, take Scarlet Dawn MP mission in Syria as an example, most of your harms will get shot down by supporting sams in a integrated air defence system. 

 

And these are exactly the sort of operations I am wishing for with the new dynamic campaign engine.  Missions with a bit of depth, missions which require planning.  Not just turn up, bomb here, RTB.

[Rubberduck85]

Ah, okay. So the "hidden for the planner" hides them from the RWR/show on HUD, as well?
 
Because this way, I should have an accurate bearing and the range for the Radar in ground mode is what? Usually, the search range is for Bagger, than the track/shoot range of the SAMs.

Hidden on map/planner options hides them on the moving map and F10 map, but they will exist in the mission. RWR/hud is unaffected.



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[VTJS17_Fire]

6 hours ago, DarkStar said:

 

No, if they emit they will show up on your RWR. 

 

Guys, SEAD is not a one aircraft operation, or even a task of 4 F-16s or Hornets alone. It requires a deliberate intelligence operation through the use of many external assets and perhaps special forces on the ground to find and track mobile sams. You'll want Rivet Joints in the air, you'll want Growlers to jam and suppress, you'll spend hours and hours of mission planning. Even in DCS it's not easy, take Scarlet Dawn MP mission in Syria as an example, most of your harms will get shot down by supporting sams in a integrated air defence system. 

 

It was more a technical question, not a tactical or general.

[DarkStar]

18 hours ago, VTJG17_Fire said:

 

It was more a technical question, not a tactical or general.

 

I understand, the answer is still the same. It does not matter if you hide it in the Mission Editor, when it goes active in the mission and emits against you, it will show up on your RWR, even if you cannot see it on your F10 map.