Vikhr stealth and laser warning receivers

[Volk.]

I read the Vikhr used/developed/explored the beam-riding tech rather than conventional laser designation explicitly because they figured all Western armour would get laser warning receivers and pop smoke the second you tried to missile them.

 

The beam increases power to stay atop the projected range of the Vikhr's receivers thus giving no warning.

 

While the ground vehicles in DCS never pop smoke from any LWS (those that have), I know painting another Shark does trip it up. Should it?

By extension, if one laser-ranged something nearby the target Black Shark, Laser Reset, and then fire a Vikhr onto a Black Shark it shouldn't get any warning at all right? I think last time I tried this just slewing over/near a Black Shark with a laser-ranging that's been reset does trip up their LWS.

[Raptor9]

Bottom line up front: beam-riders do indeed trip Laser Warning Systems (LWS), but a laser beam-rider defeats countermeasures employed against laser-homing munitions.

 

Laser beam-riding missiles provide "counter-countermeasure" to vehicle-mounted smoke dispensers, but they don't prevent the laser warning receivers from detecting the laser hitting the vehicle.  If an aircraft drops or fires a laser-guided munition that requires a laser designation spot reflecting back toward the weapon's seeker, the smoke will most likely not only obscure the target from the designating sensor, but can also diffuse and/or scatter the laser energy to the point that the designation energy is diffused to a lower level that the munition is able to see, or is scattered away from the target altogether.

 

Because the Vikhr's laser sensors look back at the Ka-50 (or Su-25T), and follows the laser guidance beam all the way to the target, as long as the pilot keeps the aiming sight on the target (either manually or using form of auto-tracking), the laser guidance beam will guide the munition to impact, regardless of what the target does to counter it.  Best case, the smoke grenades interfere with the pilot's ability to maintain sight of the target vehicle, either leading to a near miss or an impact to a non-critical section of the vehicle (real-life damage considerations of course).

 

The only time vehicles in DCS "pop smoke" is when they are taking serious damage, and even then it is only a brief "puff" effect.  Smoke countermeasures aren't really a thing in DCS at the moment, no idea if it will ever be planned.

Edited January 22, 2021 by Raptor9

[Northstar98]

Also, due to the fact that the receivers point backwards, they're essentially immune from jamming (such as from dazzlers).

[GGTharos]

But the targeting equipment sure isn't.   Not that we have dazzlers in-game.   As for the vikhr achieving a 'near miss' vs an obscured target, that really depends - popping smoke tends to coincide with moving from the spot you're at - but it's certainly a pretty fast missile.  The main problem then is subsequent attack now that the presence and direction of the attacker is known.

[Volk.]

So (assuming the laser itself is of the same calibre/quality) it's more resistant to atmospheric effects as it only has to cross the haze once and only once it hits the smoke (i.e. possibly very late down the flight path, almost at time of impact if it's the target itself popping smoke).

 

But does the beam itself go full-strength all the way to the target, or does it focus/increase beam power as the Vikhr travels (measured by time of flight only, since there's no communication of the Vikhr's position by the Shark, only as estimation based on ranging)? If it's the latter then surely that a laser warning system won't trigger if you ranged elsewhere to get a similar ranging without being in proximity to trip sensors. Or rather put their laser warning might go off in the last instant before impact.

Or is even the feint, low-power/unfocused rays enough to trip the warning receivers from launch?

[Raptor9]

7 hours ago, GGTharos said:

As for the vikhr achieving a 'near miss' vs an obscured target, that really depends - popping smoke tends to coincide with moving from the spot you're at - but it's certainly a pretty fast missile.

 

Well obviously, but that's why I listed that as best case.  We're talking real-life here because DCS ground units don't pop smoke and move when under such attack, and in real-life it depends on LWS equipment sensitivity, processing speed, equipment condition, crew training and reaction time, etc.  For all we know you have the goober of the group in that vehicle and he wasn't listening during training, and thinks just popping smoke will do the job, and then takes a missile through the smoke.

 

The OP was inquiring about the reason behind the Vikhr being a beam-rider design, and whether the Shark's laser system should trip another Ka-50's LWS when a given DCS ground vehicle doesn't react.  That was the intent behind my answer.

[Northstar98]

10 hours ago, GGTharos said:

But the targeting equipment sure isn't.  Not that we have dazzlers in-game. 

 

Yeah, but it's not like many MBTs feature them, and they mostly disrupt missile tracking, not the targeting system itself (not unless you've got a laser you can aim - though again, the majority of dazzlers that aren't supposed to dazzle people are IR based).

 

The only dazzlers I can think of are the Shtora and AN/VLQ-6, and neither of those do anything against optical targeting systems AFAIK, what they do instead is mostly try and confuse whatever is tracking the missile (which in SACLOS missiles like TOW and HOT is usually an IR beacon/flare).

[Sh4rk]

Lasing / locking targets in the Ka50 certainly does trip the target's LWS.

A-10s, other helos including Sharks, and ground units are all alerted to the laser.

 

Similarly, a Grach's, a Harrier's or a Su-27's lasers trip the Ka50's LWS, even when they're only used for ranging.

[Fri13]

Shkval doesn't trip LWS early because there is two factors to deny it.

 

1) Beam is shaped by the time. The beam is calculated to stay 7 meter wide at the Vikhr position through the flight. So at start it is wider and in the end narrowed.

 

2) Beam power is adjusted by same timer, so it doesn't trigger LWS until in final seconds at range.

 

Idea that guidance triggers LWS 2-3 seconds before impact is negligent, as even smoke screen doesn't deny impact if missile flies straight.

The problem is really that vehicle crews are trained to not stay visible. It is at best just the commander sight on roof that is visible and then vehicle moves behind the cover to scan zone for few seconds and then return back to cover, moves to another position and repeats.

 

This precaution avoids getting engagement from helicopters and fighters.

 

 

On 1/28/2021 at 6:41 PM, Sh4rk said:

Lasing / locking targets in the Ka50 certainly does trip the target's LWS.

A-10s, other helos including Sharks, and ground units are all alerted to the laser.

 

Similarly, a Grach's, a Harrier's or a Su-27's lasers trip the Ka50's LWS, even when they're only used for ranging.

Ranging is more powerful laser than guidance in Shkval. The designation is most power demanding of all the three.

[Sh4rk]

After you turn on the laser in the K-401, and when you first lock the target with the Shkval, pressing the designation button with the targeting box over the target, you get laser ranging which trips LWS.

 

You'll not give a second warning when you [uncage or lose track] and slew the Shkval over a second or the same target, without designating again. Because the laser isn't really ranging in that case, it's calculating the range from the previous ranging information, plus information from the Shkval's position and INU. You may notice it'll drift and increase ranging errors over time, requiring you to designate again, specially if you're trying to hit things with rockets or guns.

 

Then firing a Vikhr without designating again I'm not sure, I think it doesn't trip LWS (so it could be properly simulated?) but it's usually too late for the target anyway.